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Featured What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    1. Usher in an era of peace between all the nations?
    Let me translate Baha'i speak for you. Yes, it has been ushered in and is unfolding... slowly. But the rulers of the world rejected Baha'u'llah, so the God of the Baha'is is making people suffer for that. Eventually we will come to realize that there is no other way to bring peace to the world except to follow the teachings of the Baha'i Faith.

    2. Bring all the Jews back to the land of Israel?
    The Edict of Toleration allowed Jews to come back to Palestine. Now they have the state of Israel. It's happening. Just be have a little patience.

    3. Rule Israel from Jerusalem (IOW be David)? Jerusalem? Haifa? Mt. Carmel? It's all Israel. So what's a few miles? And, I think Baha'is can show how Baha'u'llah is related to David. But then again... aren't we all kind of related. So that's close enough. You are waiting for the Messiah. They say that Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah have all been "Messiahs" of the one true God, along with those from Judaism. Which include at least Abraham and Moses and could also include Noah and Adam.

    So now that we have settled that... what do you think of them saying your Bible is wrong about Isaac?
     
  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Zion is used as a name in sentences like 'Our Divine Being Zion' (Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7); Zan is the Flock of Israel (ציון ▬ צאן), Zion is the Place of David.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It sounds like you are admitting that we do not have peace between the nations. So.... no messiah yet, since the prophecy is not yet fulfilled.

    You see it doesn't matter what you mean when you say usher. You knew what I meant, and so there were no semantic misunderstandings. You knew my point was that it had not been completed. In the future, let's not play these games.

    I'm a Jew and I live in Southern California. And a heck of a lot of other Jews live here too. In fact, roughly half the Jews in the world live in the USA. So even though the trend is in the right direction, the prophecy is simply not fulfilled yet. Period. Thus, no messiah.

    Your answer almost sounds like you want to obliterate the prophecy, to say it doesn't matter. Well of course you do, because probably more than any of the other prophecies, this is the one you hate the most. It's simply too political and ethnic and earthly for you. Imagine the messiah having to be a literal Jew, a descendant of David, a literal ruler in the literal city of Jerusalem over the literal nation of Israel. For YOU that must be almost offensive.

    I can't speak to how the rest of the world uses the word "messiah." They have taken the word from Judaism and redefined it. In Judaism, maschiach means annointed, as in someone who has been annointed with oil for an office such as a king or high priest. King David, and Cyrus were both called messiahs. However, there is one guy, a Messiah "with a capital M" so to speak, who will reign during the messianic era. Usually when we speak of the Moshiach, we are referring to him. Not to Adam or Abraham or Moses, and certainly not to the Bab or Krishna.
     
    #283 IndigoChild5559, Nov 23, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It does matter, unless you have prophecies that say exactly when the prophecies will be fulfilled, because otherwise it is just a personal opinion, a projection of your own personal expectations onto the prophecies.
     
  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Of course it matter!!!! It matters whether I'm shopping for food or sitting down and actually eating. It matters whether I'm dating or married. It matters whether I'm studying at a university or have my degree. It ALWAYS matters whether you are only in the process of something or whether it is completed.

    Let me give you an example of your reasoning in action. Let's say I tell my third grade students that my student aid will write a paper about how important school is. What would you think about Johnny if Johnny goes around telling other kids he is my aid since he has started writing his paper, but in face he hasn't turned it in?
     
    #285 IndigoChild5559, Nov 23, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  6. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I don’t know all the interpretations of these verses but Abdul-Baha gave an important key to understanding most of it.


    The beautiful and glorious person riding upon the white horse is the Greatest Name and the white horse means also His glorious body.” (Abdul-Baha)

    We know that the kings of the earth and religions will unite to try and destroy the Faith of God. I think that materialism is the beast because industries like the wine industry and gambling industries will be hit very hard once populations of Baha’is become large as the Faith won’t cater for these industries.

    The thousand years is another clear sign to Baha’is as Baha’u’Llah has stated that not within a thousand years will another revelation come from God so that’s easy to understand. Ungodliness has dominated the world for a long time and Abdul-Baha stated that satan refers ro the base animalistic side of man which shall be subdued and brought under control in this revelation. So satan, the lower nature of man will be chained up and man’s higher nature will rule.


    I think with the White Rider being Baha’u’llah the rest of the verse is self explanatory if one is also knowledgeable of the Writings.
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You are obfuscating. It does matter if you do not have prophecies saying precisely when the prophecies will be fulled, precisely how the prophecies will be fulfilled, and by whom the prophecies will be fulfilled. Otherwise you are just making unfounded assumptions and projecting your own personal expectations onto the prophecies.

    Unless it says the Messiah will be the one fulfilling the prophecies you cannot "honestly" say it will be him doing it. Unless it says it will happen during his lifetime you cannot "honestly" say that will occur during his lifetime. Finally, unless there is an actual time frame on the prophecy, you cannot "honestly" say when the prophecy will be fulfilled...

    It is not called "the Messianic Age" for no reason. An age is a distinct period of history, and unless it is specified in prophecies exactly how long it will last, we cannot know that.
    Where do any prophecies say that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies himself and where do any prophecies say exactly when these specific events will take place?

    I am waiting for those prophecies. :)
     
    #287 Trailblazer, Nov 23, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Your point about "precisely when" is simply wrongheaded. If I am studying for a degree, I don't have to give a date for when I'll get my degree for it to matter whether I have a degree or not. There is still a world of difference once I get my degree whether I get it this year or a decade from now.

    I chose three prophecies that were specifically to be fulfilled by the messiah. However, the messiah is he who will rule during the messianic age. Thus the messianic age cannot last longer than the lifespan of the messiah. It is possible that lives will be increased in longevity at that time. It is also possible that lives will be the same lifespan as now. But we know there is only one messiah, who will reign. There will not be two kings, or three kings, etc. Just one.

    This means that the messianic age prophecy that all people will know God automatically and not need to be taught about God will happen during the messiah's reign,even though he may not necessarily be the one to make it happen. Same with the other prophecies about the millennial age. Thus, if the millennial age prophecies are not happening, it is also not a good idea to proclaim anyone the messiah.
     
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is a red herring.
    What are those prophecies? I want to see where it says in the prophecy what you are saying. As for ruling, there is no reason to think that the Messiah would rule on a throne like a king would rule, thus there is no reason to think that messianic age cannot last longer than the lifespan of the messiah.

    rule
    1a : to exert control, direction, or influence on the passions that rule our minds
    b : to exercise control over especially by curbing or restraining rule a fractious horse ruled his appetites firmly
    2a : to exercise authority or power over often harshly or arbitrarily the speaker ruled the legislature with an iron hand
    b : to be preeminent in : dominate
    3 : to determine and declare authoritatively especially : to command or determine judicially
    Definition of RULE
    They are happening, they just have not been completely fulfilled yet, but unless you have prophecies stating a time frame, there is no reason to believe all of them will be brought to completion within any specified period of time.
     
    #289 Trailblazer, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    As the person with the new name of the messiah according to most religions around the world; I'm stating it, and asking you only to do a few Google searches to study it is legitimate information.
    It is ridiculous as someone sent from Heaven, I'm busy debating my existence; when for years you're all debating if I'm coming... :oops:

    Baha'u'llah, Krishna, Yeshua, Buddha, Zoroaster, etc, prophesied me by name, and yet I've got to defend my right to exist for 15 years. [​IMG]

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. But since I'm not a Baha'i, good luck getting them to admit anything.

    I've gone through a period of time when I was close to believing the Baha'i Faith. But then a friend became a born-again Christian back during the Jesus movement of the 70's. He showed me "The Truth" about Jesus. All the Bible prophecies that he fulfilled and how he was going to return. After a couple of years, I began to question what I was being told, by both the Baha'is and Christians. I was in LA and went into a Jewish bookstore and asked, "They both say they came from Judaism. But yet, you stay Jewish. Why?' After showing some reluctance, he finally showed me three books and said, "If you want to know... read these.? They were, "Judaism and Christianity, the Differences" by Trude Weiss-Rosmarin, "You Take Jesus, I'll Take God" by Samuel Levine and "The Real Messiah" by Aryeh Kaplan.

    There was clearly problems. So many things taken out of context and made into fulfilled prophecies. Things that Christians say are talking about Jesus but Jews were saying was talking about Israel. Now, the Baha'is do the same thing to both Judaism and Christianity. They do have some prophecies that sound great, while others are grossly out of context.

    One of my main questions to Baha'is is that why should a Jew have converted? Converted to what? A religion that made Jesus into God? Something that Baha'is say is not true. So why should a Jew believe and convert to Christianity?

    Any way, those three books have ample reasons why Jesus was not the Messiah. Baha'is are supposed to investigate truth. I hope they do. Instead of doing like so many others do, and come to a point where they think they "know" and quit investigating with an open mind, and accept what their religion teaches as the only, or, in the case of the Baha'is, the latest and best truth, which makes it essentially "the only truth".
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is what Christians and Jews do, take things out of context and make them into unfulfilled prophecies.
    I do not expect you to ever realize that because your bias against the Baha'i Faith is self-evident.

    For example, IndigoChild5559 said:

    If the messiah had already come, he would have fulfilled all the prophecies, including:
    1. Usher in an era of peace between all the nations.
    2. Bring all the Jews back to the land of Israel.
    3. Rule Israel from Jerusalem (IOW be David).


    There are no prophecies that say #2 and #3. These are her interpretations of prophecies.

    2. Nowhere does any prophecy say that all the Jews in the world will return to Israel.
    3. Nowhere does any prophecy say that the Messiah will rule Israel from Jerusalem and be David.

    As for 1., that has been fulfilled, because an era of peace between ushered in. Nowhere does it say peace will be completely established ; it says “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end which means it will be a gradual process.”

    Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says increase in government.

    The prophecy says the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

    That has been fulfilled because Baha’u’llah is ruling upon the throne of David:

    “THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Sandalphon is the name of an angel. He is not the Moshiach in Judaism.
     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Herring Schmerring. My analogy of not knowing when you are graduating and getting your degree nevertheless not diminishing the importance of your degree illustrates beautifully just how silly it is to say that the significance of completion is only there if one knows in advance when the completion will happen.

    1. The messiah will usher in (rule during) an era of peace:
    Isaiah 2:4
    He will judge between the nations
    and will settle disputes for many peoples.
    They will beat their swords into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
    Nation will not take up sword against nation,
    nor will they train for war anymore.

    2. He will bring all the Jews out of diaspora and back to the Land of Israel. Remember we are not talking about partial fulfillment.
    Isaiah 11:12
    He will raise a banner for the nations
    and gather the exiles of Israel;
    he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
    from the four quarters of the earth.

    3. He will "be David," i.e. rule Israel from Jerusalem;
    Isaiah 11:1-5
    A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
    from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
    2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—
    the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
    the Spirit of counsel and of might,
    the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord—
    3 and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.
    He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
    or decide by what he hears with his ears;
    4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
    with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
    He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
    with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
    5 Righteousness will be his belt
    and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

    Jeremiah 23:5
    The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

    Jeremiah 30:8-9
    ‘In that day,’ declares the Lord Almighty,
    ‘I will break the yoke off their necks
    and will tear off their bonds;
    no longer will foreigners enslave them.
    9 Instead, they will serve the Lord their God
    and David their king,
    whom I will raise up for them.
     
  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    A few years before reading the Bible I fulfilled Revelation 10 on a sacred mountain, which is said to be a door way to heaven in ancient times... I've known since birth I was sent from Heaven.

    Sandalphon is the Archangel who interacts with mankind, and is seen as a Pillar between Heaven and Earth - some think Sandalphon is Elijah because of this.

    In Revelation 10:1, and in Revelation 3:12 the usage of 'Pillar' implies the Archangel is Sandalphon, when we correlate all the other name references globally, it is clear what God told me as a child, 'that my name is in the world's religious texts' is stating me as the Messiah.

    Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar (Sandalphon) in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God (Zion - Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7), the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).

    Revelation 19:12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has names written and a name written which no one knows but he himself.

    Zechariah 14:9 Yahavah will be King over all the earth. In that day Yahavah will be one, and his name one.


    My name (Zanda) correlates all the world's religions, and thus it is an opportunity to build world peace between us by uniting the religion globally, under One Source to reality.

    Sandek Phon implies the Circumciser Archangel, which is why in Isaiah 52:7 it says there shall no longer be uncircumcised in the land, whilst King Zion Elohim reigns.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  16. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot of things you'll never realize too. Like how un-Baha'i you sound sometimes.
    Here's more of what I said. Saying that some of the prophecies Baha'is "sound" great, coming from me, ain't all that bad. But, I do believe Baha'i, like Christians, take some things out of context and claim them to be prophecies. If you weren't so biased in favor of the Baha'i Faith, maybe you could see that. And again I say, Fundy Christians and Fundy Baha'is aren't all that different. They both see their truth as the only truth.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What is un-Baha'i, not being nice all the time and letting people walk all over me?
    I am certainly not perfect example of a Baha'i, but my standing up to people and calling them out is not a bad thing and it is not against any Baha'i teachings. I can only be honest.
    But logically speaking, we cannot both have the truth since our truths contradict each other.

    The hundred-dollar difference between Baha'is and Christians is that we have the fulfillment of the prophecies in Baha'u'llah and all they have is a hope that Jesus is coming back. That is a huge difference. You do not have to believe that but we do. Whether it is true or not I do not think everyone will know for a very long time, not even in the afterlife, but I think Baha'is will know when we enter the Crimson Ark. :)
     
  18. CriticalThinking

    CriticalThinking Quranist

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    Well, Quran doesn't mention the second come back, so Quranicly speaking there is no such a thing and IMO its better for people to focus on making the world a better place than waiting for a savior
     
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  19. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Quran 89:22

    And thy Lord shall come and the angels rank on rank”
     
  20. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    And how does coming like 'a thief in the night' match the way that he comes in revelations. A thief in the night is quiet, probably. In revelation he comes storming in on sky horses with giant bowls of chaos. The guy with the revelation vision was dreaming up something a lot more packed with action than the image of some nighttime thief
     
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