What will heaven be like?

[lukethethird]

I will say what I say to all nonbelievers, you will have your evidence when you die and are not dead....
Till then, there is no point arguing about it since my evidence will never suffice for any nonbeliever

There is a reason why your so called "evidence" never suffices.

 

[lukethethird]

Ibelieve the evidence is sufficient and that makes it true and not a lie.

Your beliefs are just that, beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is a reason why your so called "evidence" never suffices.

What is the reason?

 

[Muffled]

That's interesting. Thank you for telling me.

I suspect this is an attack by the devil. Sometimes the visions will rush towards me and frighten me for a few seconds. It is quite a rare thing to have visions with my eyes open. I am wise to the devil's tricks though, so he isn't going to get anywhere with it.

 

[Muffled]

Your beliefs are just that, beliefs.

I believe that is true for everyone and that includes you. The question I have is whether one is looking at the evidence logically or just assuming their idea of it is true.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is my firm belief that after my brain ceases to function, I will be in exactly the same state I was before my brain formed late during my mother's pregnancy -- a state of total non-existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is my firm belief that after my brain ceases to function, I will be in exactly the same state I was before my brain formed late during my mother's pregnancy -- a state of total non-existence.

It is my firm belief that after your brain ceases to function, your body will decompose and your soul will leave your body and continue to live in a spiritual body and ascend to the spiritual world, and since 'you' is your soul, and not your physical body, 'you' will continue to exist after your physical body dies.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is my firm belief that after your brain ceases to function, your body will decompose and your soul will leave your body and continue to live in a spiritual body and ascend to the spiritual world, and since 'you' is your soul, and not your physical body, 'you' will continue to exist after your physical body dies.

Now, what, exactly, is this "soul?" How do I (or you) know it? How does it manifest itself? Where did it come from, and when? How does it exist without a physical body (and especially brain) since it can be so easily "shut down" by a guy with a few chemicals? And how are those chemicals so much more effective at shutting this "soul" down than death and the destruction of the brain itself?

Please enlighten me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, what, exactly, is this "soul?" How do I (or you) know it? How does it manifest itself? Where did it come from, and when?

The soul is a creation of God and it came from God sometime during the course of evolution, when man became distinct from the animal.
The soul is s mystery whose reality the most learned of men have failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind can ever hope to unravel.

The soul associates itself with the body at the time of conception.
From then on soul works through the brain and while we are living on earth in a physical body. The soul is associated with the brain and it animates and directs the brain and the body, but when we die and no longer have a physical body the soul continues to live. It lives forever, and that is why it is called an 'immortal soul.'

The soul manifests itself in our thought process. The soul itself does not have cognitive functions, only the brain has those, but the soul 'animates' the brain so it is responsible for our ability to think and feel. If we had no soul the body would have no life.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. The soul takes on some kind of a spiritual body made up of elements that exist in the spiritual world and continues to live forever.

How does it exist without a physical body (and especially brain) since it can be so easily "shut down" by a guy with a few chemicals? And how are those chemicals so much more effective at shutting this "soul" down than death and the destruction of the brain itself?

Please enlighten me.

The soul never shuts down. Only the brain shuts down, after the physical body dies and ceases to function.
After the physical body dies, the soul takes on a spiritual body and continues to live forever in the spiritual world.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The soul is a creation of God and it came from God sometime during the course of evolution, when man became distinct from the animal.
The soul is s mystery whose reality the most learned of men have failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind can ever hope to unravel.

The soul associates itself with the body at the time of conception.
From then on soul works through the brain and while we are living on earth in a physical body. The soul is associated with the brain and it animates and directs the brain and the body, but when we die and no longer have a physical body the soul continues to live. It lives forever, and that is why it is called an 'immortal soul.'

The soul manifests itself in our thought process. The soul itself does not have cognitive functions, only the brain has those, but the soul 'animates' the brain so it is responsible for our ability to think and feel. If we had no soul the body would have no life.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. The soul takes on some kind of a spiritual body made up of elements that exist in the spiritual world and continues to live forever.

The soul never shuts down. Only the brain shuts down, after the physical body dies and ceases to function.
After the physical body dies, the soul takes on a spiritual body and continues to live forever in the spiritual world.

I see.

Now, if you were to ask me similar questions about the amazing things that your iPhone can do, I would be able to tell you in very great detail -- right down to the electronics, the programming, how the touch screen works, and so forth. And if I had enough time, I could show you the evidence for every single thing I say.

What's your evidence for even the tiniest morsel of what you have just claimed with such authority?

Have you ever seen a soul "associating itself with a body at the time of conception?"
Have you ever heard of people who, after terrible brain trauma, changes their personality completely? (I can give you examples, if you need.) How is it, do you think, that could happen if it was only their brain -- but not their "soul" -- that was injured?

Can you give us an example of "elements that exist in the spiritual world?" Come to that, can you demonstrate this "spiritual world?"

I get so tired of people who think they know so much -- and actually "know" (in the sense of KNOWLEDGE) next to nothing. But are happy to pronounce away ad nauseum anyway.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, what, exactly, is this "soul?" How do I (or you) know it? How does it manifest itself? Where did it come from, and when? How does it exist without a physical body (and especially brain) since it can be so easily "shut down" by a guy with a few chemicals? And how are those chemicals so much more effective at shutting this "soul" down than death and the destruction of the brain itself?

Please enlighten me.

You asked me some questions and then I answered those questions according to what I believe.
And now you are complaining because you did not like the answers I gave you.

I see.

Now, if you were to ask me similar questions about the amazing things that your iPhone can do, I would be able to tell you in very great detail -- right down to the electronics, the programming, how the touch screen works, and so forth. And if I had enough time, I could show you the evidence for every single thing I say.

Of course you could show me how my iPhone works, since it is a manufactured product that is made to work a certain way, so it is known how it works.
It has to be known how it works in order for people to be able to work it. I sure wish you would show me how my iPhone works because I am clueless!

What's your evidence for even the tiniest morsel of what you have just claimed with such authority?

I was not claiming anything with any authority. I was only answering your questions to the best of my ability.
I never said that there was any evidence, I said that the soul is a mystery.

Have you ever seen a soul "associating itself with a body at the time of conception?"

Of course not. The soul is not an entity that can be seen as sit is immaterial.

Have you ever heard of people who, after terrible brain trauma, changes their personality completely? (I can give you examples, if you need.) How is it, do you think, that could happen if it was only their brain -- but not their "soul" -- that was injured?

Their personality does change completely while they are alive in a physical body in THIS world since the soul works through the body and brain while we are living in this world, as I said before. The brain is affected but the soul remains unaffected. Whatever personality that person had before the brain trauma will be restored when their body and brain die and their soul ascends to the spiritual world. That is a belief, not a claim. I don't claim things I cannot prove.

Can you give us an example of "elements that exist in the spiritual world?" Come to that, can you demonstrate this "spiritual world?"

Of course not, I have no idea what a spiritual element is since I have never been to the spiritual world.
Does a baby in the womb know what this world will be like before it is born into this world?

I get so tired of people who think they know so much -- and actually "know" (in the sense of KNOWLEDGE) next to nothing. But are happy to pronounce away ad nauseum anyway.

I do not know in the sense of having factual knowledge. I only know what I believe. That might sound like an oxymoron but it really isn't, since factual knowledge is only one kind of knowledge. There are other ways to know.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I do not know in the sense of having factual knowledge. I only know what I believe. That might sound like an oxymoron but it really isn't, since factual knowledge is only one kind of knowledge. There are other ways to know.

And that is the very essence of the question of knowledge, known as epistemology. Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. It is concerned with the mind's relation to reality. What is it for this relation to be one of knowledge? Do we know things? And if we do, how and when do we know things?

And it is the very antithesis of "faith belief." In fact, you might say that "knowledge" (epistemically) is "justified true belief." To be knowledge, you must believe it (you do that), but then your belief also be true (you can't say anything about that) and you must be justified in your reasons for believing it (and you don't even consider that in your posts).

I can't "know" things I find it impossible to even believe. And how would I "justify" saying I know something I don't even believe?

Religion is easy -- all you need to do is give yourself over to beliefs you can never justify. Knowledge is hard work. I suppose that's why so few people are interested in pursuing it.

 

[Trailblazer]

And that is the very essence of the question of knowledge, known as epistemology. Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. It is concerned with the mind's relation to reality. What is it for this relation to be one of knowledge? Do we know things? And if we do, how and when do we know things?

And it is the very antithesis of "faith belief." In fact, you might say that "knowledge" (epistemically) is "justified true belief." To be knowledge, you must believe it (you do that), but then your belief also be true (you can't say anything about that) and you must be justified in your reasons for believing it (and you don't even consider that in your posts).

It all depends upon how you define knowledge.

knowledge

1a(1) : the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association
(2) : acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique
b(1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something
(2) : the range of one's information or understanding
c : the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning : cognition
d : the fact or condition of having information or of being learned: a person of unusual knowledge

2a : the sum of what is known : the body of truth, information, and principles acquired by humankind
Definition of KNOWLEDGE

The nature of a religious belief is that it can never be proven true or false. If it could be proven true, it would be a fact and not a belief.
Of course I believe that my belief is true, but since I cannot prove it is true I cannot claim it is true.
I believe that my reasons for believing it are justified and I know how I justify my belief, but I don't bring that up anymore since I have already been told by so many atheists that my reasons for believing are not justified.

I can't "know" things I find it impossible to even believe. And how would I "justify" saying I know something I don't even believe?

Of course you can't "know" things that you find it impossible to even believe, but you also cannot "believe" things you find impossible to know, and I think the latter is the crux of the issue. You cannot imagine why I would believe things that are impossible to know. I believe it is possible to know certain things through what a Messenger of God reveals, but since you don't believe in God, let alone a Messesnger, there'd be no reason for you to believe these things. In fact, they must sound fantastical! So what I accept as reality looks like a fantasy to you, and others who don't believe it.

Religion is easy -- all you need to do is give yourself over to beliefs you can never justify. Knowledge is hard work. I suppose that's why so few people are interested in pursuing it.

If you can tell me any other way to have knowledge of God that is not derived from religion I'd be glad to hear it.
That's after you explain to me how to use my iPhone. I have been trying to e-mail photos from my iPhone to my laptop and I used to be able to do that easily but it just stopped working. I hate gadgets that don't work!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If you can tell me any other way to have knowledge of God that is not derived from religion I'd be glad to hear it.

Just this one point from your post, which is mostly about trying to conflate belief with knowledge.

If you can tell me any other way to have knowledge of the magic of wizards that is not derived from believing it, I'd be glad to hear it.

If you believe Harry Potter could summon up a Patronus to protect him from dementors, then you believe that because of two things, and two things only -- what a novelist wrote, and your own desire to believe it. But none of that constitutes "knowledge."

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

It will be what you believe it to be.

My idea is that I'll be resurrected in a new body that will never die again. By the time they find a way to cause massive resurrections of previously deceased people, we'll have ways for each individual to assert their own creative control on a whole galaxy. My eschatology is the same as this, only, the galaxy will be upgrade to a Universe, then a Multiverse. When we find ways to create life through automatic technology everywhere in the Omniverse, humans will only act as a way to be the creative engine of false realities and design thoughtful ways to contemplate unique grand designs of nature. Sovereignty and unity will be enhanced to a point which every place in reality has a owner and new points of reality are constantly being created and curated by the leading architects of nature, which will be a post-human fusion of human and artificial intelligence.

I should write science fiction novels...

 

[Trailblazer]

Just this one point from your post, which is mostly about trying to conflate belief with knowledge.

If you can tell me any other way to have knowledge of the magic of wizards that is not derived from believing it, I'd be glad to hear it.

If you believe Harry Potter could summon up a Patronus to protect him from dementors, then you believe that because of two things, and two things only -- what a novelist wrote, and your own desire to believe it. But none of that constitutes "knowledge."

I'm sorry but I don't know how that answers my question:

"If you can tell me any other way to have knowledge of God that is not derived from religion I'd be glad to hear it. "

..... or maybe you can't answer it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I should write science fiction novels...

You should, because you'd make a fortune. Then of course there would have to be a movie too, or maybe just a TV series...
My dad loved science fiction, so did my late husband.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm sorry but I don't know how that answers my question:

"If you can tell me any other way to have knowledge of God that is not derived from religion I'd be glad to hear it. "

..... or maybe you can't answer it.

I have answered it -- you just couldn't understand it. Let me see if I can put it simply:

THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT WHICH YOU CANNOT IN ANY SENSE PERCEIVE BUT ONLY IMAGINE.

What you might call "knowledge" is nothing more than an attempt to justify your fantasy. You certainly cannot do anything whatever to demonstrate your notion of a "soul."

Do I know whether my front door exists? Yes -- I can open it, close it, bang my head against it, take photos of it, ask my friends to describe it to me, check the files of the builder, perhaps even review satellite images. I can one day find some vandal has sprayed graffiti on it. I can take it off it's hinges, and see whether that affects the temperature inside my house, or has an effect on who thinks they can come in. I have endless ways in which to demonstrate the reality of my front door.

Give me one -- just one, it's not asking too much -- way in which you can demonstrate a "soul."

 

[Trailblazer]

I have answered it -- you just couldn't understand it. Let me see if I can put it simply:

THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT WHICH YOU CANNOT IN ANY SENSE PERCEIVE BUT ONLY IMAGINE.

Let me see if I can put it simply: THERE IS A WAY TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THAT WHICH YOU CANNOT PERCEIVE WITH YOUR 5 SENSES.
It is called religion which comes from revelations from God through Messengers.

What you might call "knowledge" is nothing more than an attempt to justify your fantasy. You certainly cannot do anything whatever to your notion of a "soul."

I can believe it exists and know what its functions are -- that is something important I can do with it, something that can help guide my life in the right direction thus preparing me for the life to come.

Do I know whether my front door exists? Yes -- I can open it, close it, bang my head against it, take photos of it, ask my friends to describe it to me, check the files of the builder, perhaps even review satellite images. I can one day find some vandal has sprayed graffiti on it. I can take it off it's hinges, and see whether that affects the temperature inside my house, or has an effect on who thinks they can come in. I have endless ways in which to demonstrate the reality of my front door.

So what? How important is it to KNOW that a front door exists?

Give me one -- just one, it's not asking too much -- way in which you can demonstrate a "soul."

Just because I cannot demonstrate it that does not mean it does not exist. That is completely illogical.
A demonstration is just what you want. It does not make the soul exist.
Conversely, lack of a demonstration does not make the soul nonexistent.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I suspect this is an attack by the devil. Sometimes the visions will rush towards me and frighten me for a few seconds. It is quite a rare thing to have visions with my eyes open. I am wise to the devil's tricks though, so he isn't going to get anywhere with it.

I don't believe in the devil, so I can't advise you on this matter. But I believe in having visions that reveal the past, present, and future. I believe in psychic visions because I've had visions of the past and present, and many were confirmed by others. And no, I don't believe that these visions are rooted in evil.