What was the point in creating the universe?

[Ouroboros]

Indeed. As I don't believe in sin though, it's not something I usually think about.

Very true. I don't think in terms of "sin" either. I tried to get a comprehensive idea of what "sin" is considered to be in the religious view, but there doesn't seem to be any united and clear definition. The holy books don't really define it very well.

 

[Ouroboros]

Yeah I mentioned this in my first response as well. It seems obvious to me that sin must be possible if we factor in the whole 'War in Heaven' scenario. And that was even a being that was made in Heaven specifically, so it should be even more likely that people from 'normal' reality would sin in Heaven as well. But it's a huge leap to go from people sinning in Heaven to EVERYONE sinning in Heaven and eventually emptying the place out and creating a vacuum of purpose in all of reality that God somehow didn't see coming. Which is what the OP states would happen.

Aaah! I see what you got stuck up on then.

It's a game of statistics. Let's say there's 10 billion people in Heaven. Only one person sins and is thrown out every 100 sixtillion years (like some kind of half-life formula). Which means that 10 billion x 100 sixtillion years is what it would take for all to have sinned. Something like that. Infinity and eternity is a very long time, longer than any number, so if the chance is that someone sins ever so often, after a very, very, very long time, heaven could be faced with vacant lots.

Yeah I'm not so educated on the Muslim idea of Heaven, but I would have to agree about the Bible's version. Nothing I can remember describes us in Heaven as perfect. But again, being capable of sin, and even being tossed out of Heaven for sinning doesn't indicate that eventually every single human being that ever was or will be eventually gets tossed out for sinning. That's just going too far. It presumes that all people will eventually sin regardless of their feelings on the subject. It presumes that God is not aware of that for some weird reason and will just trick himself into emptying Heaven. AND it presumes that at some point humanity will end and there won't be any more people to keep refilling Heaven even if we DID all end up sinning to the point of exile.

That not all eventually will also presumes that some people would be perfect and never sin, in the time of infinity+1.

And then that is somehow calling the point of the universe into question as though it was apparent without all of that. I just don't get the connection.

Sure. The problem presented was more about if the end game by God was to create a perfect heaven with sin-free people, then why go to the trouble of have a sin-full world? But I think from the discussion there could be an argument that we become sin-free by experiencing sin-full, so the human experience is what creates what's needed, a molding phase.

 

[Sir Doom]

Aaah! I see what you got stuck up on then.

It's a game of statistics. Let's say there's 10 billion people in Heaven. Only one person sins and is thrown out every 100 sixtillion years (like some kind of half-life formula). Which means that 10 billion x 100 sixtillion years is what it would take for all to have sinned. Something like that. Infinity and eternity is a very long time, longer than any number, so if the chance is that someone sins ever so often, after a very, very, very long time, heaven could be faced with vacant lots.

Not so. People could sin every single day and 100 people could get kicked out every single day. And one shining idiot just sits there picking his nose for eternity. Defeating the entire thing. It's not a given that someone is bound to sin at some point in there time in Heaven that's a ludicrous assumption. It isn't a coin flip. Its a human being making a choice. Human beings have thoughts and desires that inform their decision to sin or not sin. They aren't bound by probability in ANY WAY. That's just not the case.

hat not all eventually will also presumes that some people would be perfect and never sin, in the time of infinity+1.

First, not-sinning doesn't make you perfect. Ignoring that though:

There should actually be infinite people who never sin. Infinite people who sin the day they get there. Infinite people who sin on day 2. And so on. And lets not forget that GOD is actually the one who decides when to throw people out or not. Which means that its entirely likely that he doesn't throw you out for every sin. Its so odd to think of an almighty being who somehow loses control of his own ideas so much as to completely negate the purpose of an entire plane of existence... on accident. Think about that.

Sure. The problem presented was more about if the end game by God was to create a perfect heaven with sin-free people, then why go to the trouble of have a sin-full world? But I think from the discussion there could be an argument that we become sin-free by experiencing sin-full, so the human experience is what creates what's needed, a molding phase.

That's right. You have to FORCE the purpose of reality to be 'PUT SOULS IN HEAVEN'. And then come back around and show that this purpose isn't being served 'properly' and therefore there IS NO PURPOSE! It just doesn't work that way.

You can't leave out a vast majority of existence in order to determine a purpose specifically designed to leave out a vast majority of existence in order to defeat the very purpose you shouldn't have added in the first place.

Why eat KFC when the entire point is to throw the bones away? Why not just throw the chicken away and cut to the chase? Because throwing the bones away, despite being the last part of the operation, is NOT the point.

 

[idav]

Since God is all-knowing, and surely knows the answers to 1,2,3, then what was the point in creating the universe?

Could be anything really but he may not even wanna watch the movie after he produced it.

 

[zaybu]

Could be anything really but he may not even wanna watch the movie after he produced it.

Yeah, but he already knew that before he made the movie.

Could it be that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-beneficial God is not that smart?

 

[Sir Doom]

Yeah, but he already knew that before he made the movie.

Could it be that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-beneficial God is not that smart?

No. It couldn't be.

 

[zaybu]

No. It couldn't be.

Why not?

 

[Sir Doom]

Why not?

Because its a contradiction.

 

[zaybu]

Because its a contradiction.

I disagree.

 

[Sir Doom]

I disagree.

I doubt it.

 

[zaybu]

I doubt it.

Let me put your mind to rest: I firmly, absolutely disagree.

 

[Sir Doom]

Let me put your mind to rest: I firmly, absolutely disagree.

Do you really think that did it?

 

[zaybu]

Do you really think that did it?

You're a young angry boy with a bad attitude. Nothing will.

 

[Sir Doom]

You're a young angry boy with a bad attitude. Nothing will.

Actually, I'm a very angry man with a bad attitude. And you can't convince me that you disagree because you simply aren't able to explain yourself. That would require that you actually had some reason to think an all-knowing being might not be that smart instead of having every reason to believe the opposite.

Basically, as you've just demonstrated again, you can't look past your personal feelings about me. Thus, being contrary to anything I say is a natural response to your dislike of me. Unfortunately, it doesn't make a convincing argument no matter how convinced you might personally be about it.

But of course... you aren't. You are just being obtuse for the purposes of shallow and petty vindictiveness. And I'm the child, yes?

All you have to do is explain how your opinion might be possible in any way shape or form that can't be easily dismissed with a few rhetorical questions. Something you haven't the slightest chance of accomplishing. A fact you know too well. Or you would have done so by now and earned some REAL vindication instead of whatever nonsense you are trying now.

 

[jmn]

I've never experienced life without intelligent thought. .

Exactly! You were lacking a part of. like yourself. You were INCOMPLETE then, and unfortunately now.

 

[Breathe]

Exactly! You were lacking a part of like yourself. You were INCOMPLETE then and now.

... how?

 

[jmn]

Yes. It was bad. I was a miniature, hyper ignoramus. Every problem was travesty and the only reaction I had was to scream until someone fixed it.

Yes. It was bad.

This is the perfect example of someone who lacks understanding. The fact that you don't have awareness or understanding of the time, is exactly what i mean.

 

[jmn]

... how?

Incomplete with the the inability to understand or develop concepts. All because of a developing brain obviously.

 

[Sir Doom]

This is the perfect example of someone who lacks understanding.

Oh poor me. I just don't understand... except that's exactly what you said I'm supposed to be doing which is what sparked the entire exchange. You suggested that a life without intelligence was preferable. Thus, a lack of understanding would also be favorable. So, you realize you have just held me up as the perfect example of what you desire us to be.

Ownt.

The fact that you don't have awareness or understanding of the time, is exactly what i mean.

So? I knew that. That's why I told you I didn't enjoy it and wouldn't again. I disagree with your assessment that this state is preferable. This is why I am constantly seeking knowledge, and why I engage in discussions regarding theological concepts, which you have poo-poo'd.

What exactly are you doing here again? And what exactly does this have to do with the thread topic?

 

[jmn]

Oh poor me. I just don't understand... except that's exactly what you said I'm supposed to be doing which is what sparked the entire exchange. You suggested that a life without intelligence was preferable. Thus, a lack of understanding would also be favorable. So, you realize you have just held me up as the perfect example of what you desire us to be.

Ownt.



So? I knew that. That's why I told you I didn't enjoy it and wouldn't again. I disagree with your assessment that this state is preferable. This is why I am constantly seeking knowledge, and why I engage in discussions regarding theological concepts, which you have poo-poo'd.

What exactly are you doing here again? And what exactly does this have to do with the thread topic?

I don't desire for you to be anything. I never said life without intelligence or understanding was preferable. I was suggesting life without intelligence is still an amazing wonder of existence.