What was the point in creating the universe?

[McBell]

By that, I don't mean to say I'm right, but simply that to argue against something that you can, by such a definition, know very little, if anything at all, about is rather difficult.

Why is this not a two way street?

i mean, if you know little to nothing about it to the point of its very existence being in question...

 

[zaybu]

Come on, now. How am I supposed to describe to myself, let alone to you, a non-physical existence, using tools that describe physical existence? And that's kind of what I'm saying - how can anyone describe something like heaven, and claim to be able know what that is like without having first experienced it. Surely most would accept to do that, one would first have to die and then somehow communicate that information (which would have to be some method involving magic perhaps) to creatures in a physical reality. And failing the ability to describe something of a non-physical nature, how can it possibly be argued? By that, I don't mean to say I'm right, but simply that to argue against something that you can, by such a definition, know very little, if anything at all, about is rather difficult.

I would agree with most of what you wrote. In the OP, I am making certain assumptions, such as there is a heaven, and people do commit sin and will have an eternity of time. And then I was trying to go to the logical limit playing with these. Granted, I can't prove any of these assumptions.

 

[Ouroboros]

This doesn't have to lead to 'sin', though.

Or it could. God sets rules. Man tries to overstep, to venture out in new doimains, and break rules. Humans love to break rules. Art where tradition is broken. Music with new styles. Words take new meaning. And so on. That's who we are, and that's why we are interresting.

 

[Sir Doom]

But that's not pertinent to the OP. Heaven is for those who do good as oppose to those who do evil. If you subtract moral choices from free will, which you could as you seem to insist, and only demand that free will concern neutral moral deeds, then the whole question of going to heaven is pointless. If we assume heaven exists, we must also assume that moral deeds exist, and free will agent like humans have that choice.

You asked. I answered. Its pertinent to your question. If you didn't want to discuss this... then why did you ask?

Further, what I am suggesting is that the removal of sinful choice IN HEAVEN does not remove free will. I am not removing it from reality itself. Therefore, the stipulation of a lack of sin during life in order to get into Heaven remains intact and unblemished. So, try to respond to what I'm actually saying next time.

It is implied in the OP.

No. It isn't. Go read my first post in this thread. Specifically the very last response to your final question. There you will find the very same confusion as to what the main body of your OP has to do with the point of the universe. I even repeated it for effect in a following post. It isn't implied. You are thinking it. But you aren't saying it. I don't think with your brain. You'll have to just explain yourself like any other normal human being. Your points are not that good to begin with, let alone so obvious that I'm just supposed to guess what you mean.

According to you everything has to be spelled out? How much spoon-feeding do you need?

Oh, poor me for being too stupid to get it, yeah? What a joke. All I hear is, "I haven't thought about this topic enough to explain it to you, but I'm also too arrogant to admit that I haven't thought about it enough, so I'm going to blame it on you."

It's not a cop-out. Determinism versus free will is a debate that's been going on for centuries, and there are great thinkers on both sides of the fence. But that's a debate for another thread.

It is a cop-out because you are trying to inject a conversation about free will vs. determinism in an effort to draw attention away from the fact that your definition of free will is a blatant contradiction. You bring this up to pretend like its a hotly debated subject, when in fact we weren't even discussing it.

In this thread, we are assuming that humans have free will, even if it might lead to a contradiction. Can you play along?

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NO. The problem here is not that free will leads to a contradiction. The problem is that YOUR definition of free will IS a contradiction and therefore IS NOT a definition of free will AT ALL.

What you missed is that you can't exhaust infinity. You can spend an infinity amount of time doing your nails, but you will still have an infinite amount time to sin. Perhaps that notion is way over your head.

LOL! No again. You seem to think that infinity only works with time. I'm sorry but there are infinite choices to make that do not involve sin. YOU CAN'T EXHAUST THOSE EITHER. So, a person that DOES NOT desire to sin, NEVER HAS TO. Therefore it is (as I said in my first post) presumptuous of you to assume that every single human being that has ever lived, is living now, and ever will live eventually will sin in Heaven. That's an assumption you can make if you like, but it isn't implied in any way by reality, or mathematics, or logic, or infinity.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Why is this not a two way street?

i mean, if you know little to nothing about it to the point of its very existence being in question...

...then that existence cannot know about physical?


Is that what you mean?

 

[Breathe]

Or it could. God sets rules. Man tries to overstep, to venture out in new doimains, and break rules. Humans love to break rules. Art where tradition is broken. Music with new styles. Words take new meaning. And so on. That's who we are, and that's why we are interresting.

But does that mean, in Heaven, that we would actually 'sin'?
Many sins may not be applicable in Heaven anyway; we don't know what Heaven would be like. Even religious scriptures aren't really that descriptive.

 

[Ouroboros]

But does that mean, in Heaven, that we would actually 'sin'?
Many sins may not be applicable in Heaven anyway; we don't know what Heaven would be like. Even religious scriptures aren't really that descriptive.

Correct, they're not. Some Christians argue that "sin" is the same as disobedience to God (like Adam and Eve). If the definition is that simple, then we can't say it's impossible to sin in Heaven. Satan disobeyed God in Heaven (if we're to believe the Bible), so why can't sin exist in Heaven if it already did exist in Heaven before (if we suppose the accuracy of the Book)?

 

[Breathe]

Correct, they're not. Some Christians argue that "sin" is the same as disobedience to God (like Adam and Eve). If the definition is that simple, then we can't say it's impossible to sin in Heaven. Satan disobeyed God in Heaven (if we're to believe the Bible), so why can't sin exist in Heaven if it already did exist in Heaven before (if we suppose the accuracy of the Book)?

Supposing the Bible was right, maybe we don't feel a need to disobey and put others, and God, first. Willingly?

 

[Ouroboros]

Supposing the Bible was right, maybe we don't feel a need to disobey and put others, and God, first. Willingly?

We're forced to sin in this world against our will?

If humans in heaven are to be different than humans here in this world, then the question comes back from the opening post, what's the point? If we're supposed to be changed and be something else, then why didn't God do it to begin with, either by creating exactly what he wanted in heaven, or made us that way here before heaven? I don't mix up a batch for pancakes and not use the batter for its purpose, but instead pour it out and then grill a steak on the BBQ. One things wasn't meant for the other, so why bother? If human behavior, mind, and attitudes are just for destruction and waste, then it seems like a wasteful creator.

 

[Breathe]

We're forced to sin in this world against our will?

Maybe, maybe not?

 

[Ouroboros]

Maybe, maybe not?

Then this world is a waste and not a preparation for that so-called Heaven. If we're supposed to become something else and different than we are, then why are we the way we are now? It all comes back to the question of this thread. What's the purpose of creating something different than the end goal? Creating a bicycle for the purpose of making a tea cup? Seems like there's no answer.

 

[Breathe]

Then this world is a waste and not a preparation for that so-called Heaven. If we're supposed to become something else and different than we are, then why are we the way we are now? It all comes back to the question of this thread. What's the purpose of creating something different than the end goal? Creating a bicycle for the purpose of making a tea cup? Seems like there's no answer.

To experience sin and separation?

 

[Sir Doom]

Then this world is a waste and not a preparation for that so-called Heaven. If we're supposed to become something else and different than we are, then why are we the way we are now? It all comes back to the question of this thread. What's the purpose of creating something different than the end goal? Creating a bicycle for the purpose of making a tea cup? Seems like there's no answer.

The thing is there is no answer either way. You can say it seems like a waste to have all these extra steps if the entire point is to get sinless people in Heaven... but you are just assigning a point in order to defeat it. That point isn't implied at all by the existence of Heaven or whether or not it contains sin. You are guessing no matter what you factor in.

Let's say God does it your way. Just BANG Heaven full of sinless people.

So, what's the point of the universe based on that? It contains Heaven. It contains sinless people. I assume God can come and go as it pleases (not sure where it would go...). So, now that things are efficient and tidy as your mind demands for 'a point' to exist... what is this point?

 

[jmn]

Theological concepts are irrelevant in the bigger picture. Life itself is amazing without intelligent thought. Just appreciate the fact we can examine life itself, and understand. Think about where you were before cognitive awareness. Is that so bad? Absolutely Not.

 

[John Martin]

1. Once in Heaven, can you sin? If not, you have no free will.
Heaven is the absence of ego. Where there is no ego there cannot be sin.
Where there is no ego there is freedom. When we make choices from this freedom all choices are God’s choices and the results will come according to God’s plan. You cannot judge them. Heaven is not only after death. People can experience here on earth if they are free of ego.
2. If yes, can you be banned from Heaven for having sin? If yes, then salvation is not eternal and chances are, one by one, over an eternity, we will all be banned
You cannot be banned from heaven. Salvation is not something you get and lose. Salvation is to wake up from our ignorance and realize that our deepest reality has been already in God and will be there forever. For God creation and salvation are not two things. For God creating is saving.
3. If no, then God is in for a very rough ride as everyone can curse him with impunity.
No one will curse God but everyone will bless God for his or her unconditional love, compassion and mercy
Since God is all-knowing, and surely knows the answers to 1, 2, 3, then what was the point in creating the universe?
Sufi mystic said: I was the hidden treasure and wanted to be known so I created the universe. In a way God is discovering his or her infinite possibilities in and through creation. Creation is nothing but one aspect of the divine. God manifests himself or herself as creation in order to unfold his divine attributes of love, compassion and mercy. Creation is a kind of divine play-divine leela, divine love, divine sacrifice, divine song and divine parable or divine joke, whatever you like to call it.

 

[Sir Doom]

Theological concepts are irrelevant in the bigger picture. Life itself is amazing without intelligent thought.

I've never experienced life without intelligent thought. Please describe it. Try not to use any intelligence to do so. That should be pretty hard considering language itself falls under that category. Good luck, though.

Just appreciate the fact we can examine life itself, and understand.

That IS intelligence.

Think about where you were before cognitive awareness. Is that so bad? Absolutely Not.

Yes. It was bad. I was a miniature, hyper ignoramus. Every problem was travesty and the only reaction I had was to scream until someone fixed it.

Yes. It was bad.

 

[Ouroboros]

To experience sin and separation?

Hmm... Ok. I can buy that answer (I think).

But still, it seems like God would have to change people to something else so they won't rebel against his domination (like Satan). Perhaps rebelling isn't a "sin" per se, but isn't there a chance that humans are still imperfect in heaven (just like Satan was)?

I guess the whole idea rests on that human experience somehow will make us perfect, perfect for heaven. Whatever the experience might be.

 

[Ouroboros]

The thing is there is no answer either way. You can say it seems like a waste to have all these extra steps if the entire point is to get sinless people in Heaven... but you are just assigning a point in order to defeat it. That point isn't implied at all by the existence of Heaven or whether or not it contains sin. You are guessing no matter what you factor in.

True.

Let's say God does it your way. Just BANG Heaven full of sinless people.

So, what's the point of the universe based on that? It contains Heaven. It contains sinless people. I assume God can come and go as it pleases (not sure where it would go...). So, now that things are efficient and tidy as your mind demands for 'a point' to exist... what is this point?

Well, wasn't the topic about that people might fall of the wagon in Heaven? Satan did (if we assume the stories to be true). He was supposedly a perfect creature. Saw God. Knew God. Knew he was screwed if he rebelled. Had everything. Yet...

There's nothing in the Bible or the Quran that guarantees that humans will be perfect in heaven or that a new fall could happen. At least I don't think there is. So it's all up for grabs, like you said, it's only speculation.

 

[Breathe]

Hmm... Ok. I can buy that answer (I think).

But still, it seems like God would have to change people to something else so they won't rebel against his domination (like Satan). Perhaps rebelling isn't a "sin" per se, but isn't there a chance that humans are still imperfect in heaven (just like Satan was)?

I guess the whole idea rests on that human experience somehow will make us perfect, perfect for heaven. Whatever the experience might be.

Indeed. As I don't believe in sin though, it's not something I usually think about.

 

[Sir Doom]

True.

:namaste

Well, wasn't the topic about that people might fall of the wagon in Heaven? Satan did (if we assume the stories to be true). He was supposedly a perfect creature. Saw God. Knew God. Knew he was screwed if he rebelled. Had everything. Yet...

Yeah I mentioned this in my first response as well. It seems obvious to me that sin must be possible if we factor in the whole 'War in Heaven' scenario. And that was even a being that was made in Heaven specifically, so it should be even more likely that people from 'normal' reality would sin in Heaven as well. But it's a huge leap to go from people sinning in Heaven to EVERYONE sinning in Heaven and eventually emptying the place out and creating a vacuum of purpose in all of reality that God somehow didn't see coming. Which is what the OP states would happen.

There's nothing in the Bible or the Quran that guarantees that humans will be perfect in heaven or that a new fall could happen. At least I don't think there is. So it's all up for grabs, like you said, it's only speculation.

Yeah I'm not so educated on the Muslim idea of Heaven, but I would have to agree about the Bible's version. Nothing I can remember describes us in Heaven as perfect. But again, being capable of sin, and even being tossed out of Heaven for sinning doesn't indicate that eventually every single human being that ever was or will be eventually gets tossed out for sinning. That's just going too far. It presumes that all people will eventually sin regardless of their feelings on the subject. It presumes that God is not aware of that for some weird reason and will just trick himself into emptying Heaven. AND it presumes that at some point humanity will end and there won't be any more people to keep refilling Heaven even if we DID all end up sinning to the point of exile.

And then that is somehow calling the point of the universe into question as though it was apparent without all of that. I just don't get the connection.