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What or Who is Babylon the Great?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by ThisShouldMakeSense, Jun 9, 2005.

  1. Ori

    Ori Angel slayer

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    Yeah, because God was there for the Jews during world war 2, wasn't he?
     
  2. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    :confused: sorry i am a bit thick , i thought this was about babylon the great am i missing something:)
     
  3. Ori

    Ori Angel slayer

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    What I mean to say is that God will never lift his hand to help anyone ever again. So I don't seee how this Babylon is going to fall, that's all.
     
  4. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Babylon was a city built by Nimrod a long time ago. The name is the Greek form of Babel. Anyways Nimrod laid the foundation of a great city in which other mighty kings and empires would built upon. The name means "The Gate of God", and known as the birth of false religions. In the Bible, the languages of men were dished out due to a spiritual discord on a high level. Babylon represents every city, country and kingdom except the Christs'. The UN is a good example because its a large representation of the worlds different kingdoms. In revelations Christ is speaking of his return setting up his own kingdom as the old "Babylons" fall away.
     
  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Babylon has already fallen in the fact that she has no hold on Gods people in a spiritual sense , but she is yet to be destroyed , just as the bible tells us ,nothing can stop Jehovahs purpose from being fullfilled ,his king is directing things from the heavens and nothing can touch that kingdom as it is in heaven.(very exciting dont you think)
     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    yes the ancient Babylon was the seat of all false religion as you say, that is why the babylon the great in the book of revelation is false religion today , i think i am right to say that it means confusion and that is what false religion has done it has confused people
    (Bab´y·lon) [Confusion]


     
  7. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Revelation has striking metaphors and the harsh words are a reaction to the authority of the Christian Church that was developing at the time. Babylon is referring to Rome and the Bishops of Rome who had gained their power through the dragon. This subject cannot be examine out of context.

    As to America being Babylon, its very formation was an escape from the Roman Catholic and Anglical Churches in Europe. This very forum owes its existance to the formation of our great country. Therefore, we are not the Babylon that Revelation is talking about.

    Gotta go to work, but this is a subject I have been studying for quite some time and this thread interests me a great deal. See ya later.
     
  8. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Whore of Babylon, etc. is the false religious system that will dominate the world during the first three and a half years of the Tribulation. During the last half of the tribulation, the world will worship the Beast, or the Antichrist. A very detailed explanation of this can be found in the book "Revelation Unveiled", by Tim LaHaye.
     
  9. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi Joe,

    So, nothing has happened in 1900 years of history?? We are still looking to the future from the year 2000? What is often overlooked is that it was their future from the 1st century CE and it is mostly our past.

    John of Patmos was dealing with the events in his own time and not writing a prophecy for people living 2000 years later. The subject of the Book of Revelation is about the Christian Church that existed in the 1st century CE and predicted the future of the Church. Which church gained power and authority? It is the church of Rome. Babylon is Rome and the Central, or Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.

    It is common for people to assume that this is a product of my beliefs or may be the results of some kind of anti-catholic bias. NOT TRUE. I have given objective study to this book and this resulted in an understanding of what it is saying. My interpretation of Revelation is based upon what Jesus and John have portrayed in this prophecy.

    Before I go any farther I want everyone to know that I am not exercising any kind of agenda based upon my beliefs, opinions, religion, etc. I am representing what the book is saying and thus the discussion should be whether someone disagrees with this book. Revelation is not a feel good prophecy and and it is quite harsh in its criticism of those who claimed authority over Christianity from the 1st century onwards.

    I know that at this point I don't think anyone is ready to examine what chapter 13 has to say.
     
  10. constantine

    constantine the Great

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    Babylon was open to all religion to come together and share their beliefs with each other to unify all races and religions by means of the tower of Babel.

    The belief was not shared by christians...
     
  11. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    How do you know? How can say that the prophecies therein are not meant for future generations...

    If you want to go by 1st century understanding, you best include the Orthodox as well, because they were one entity at the time, it was one Catholic(universal) Church.

    According to you... you act as if your's is an end all interpretation. On the side, the Bible forbids personal interpretation of prohpecy...

    I agree with Revelations, but not with you... the two are not mutually inclusive...
     
  12. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    I too, believe John was shown the events that are to occur at the last time. It ends with Christ coming and setting up his millenial kingdom, a new heaven and a new earth, etc. And the events that take place are SO catastrophic, it is easy to see that judgement of this magnitude has not occured yet, it is future. Everything that has been happening in the world since 1948 when Israel became a nation again is leading up to the Great Tribulation described in Revelation.

    It is interesting that the 2 witnesses will lie dead in the streets for 3 days, and that EVERYONE on earth will see them, this could only happen with television, a recent invention. It is also interesting that no one will be able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast on their hand or forehead. With computers and computer chips and scanners, this is now a real possiblity. In my country dogs can have a chip put in them so they can be identified and returned to their owner, people with medical conditons have chips now. They are experimenting with all these things, like retinal, hand, fingerprint scanners, etc.

    Just think, with a personal ID card, a person would be able to bank, go to the doctor, buy food, etc. just with a chip and a strip. Now imagine, with Identity theft, instead of a card for all that, simply inserting a chip in the hand (or forehead), would make this mark of the beast a reality. Interesting.
     
  13. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Perhaps it's just an artifact of an emotional rant of a semi-nomadic, tribal people against the more complex, sophistocated civilizations to their North and South.
     
  14. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Well....... Mr Emu

    I am not saying that my interpretation is the end all, I am presenting it for the scrutiny of others. I am reading posts and listening. It is the product of years of study and I am assertive, yet not dogmatic about the subject. by all means, state your conclusions on the subject.

    Seyorni, Hi.

    I myself have pondered the possibility of John of Patmos being a bitter outcast. One can keep this in mind while studying Revelation. What my contention is, is that I am concerned with examining just exactly what is said in this book and have not subjected it to my own ideals or beliefs. A purely objective accounting.

    Hi Joe, you have signed on to the most popular interpretaions of Revelation. What I am positive about, is that it was their future and mostly our past. Therefore, the history of the Christian Church from the first century cannot be ignored. And, even though the metaphors in Revelation have a supernatural hue about them, they are representations of very real and historic events. What is possible, is that the truth being know about Revelation could be the catalyst to bringing on the tribulations and not vice-versa. There is a distinct matter of Jesus revealing knowledge of this prophecy to someone, somewhere, that may be just some joe or jane dokes. This is the traditon of prophecy to sheppards and outcasts.
     
  15. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    The destruction from the trumpet and bowl judgements is so catastrophic, I have to say I believe it has not happenned yet. It is God's final judgement, wherein between each there is an interval in which he gives people a chance to repent, and most do not.
     
  16. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi Joe

    That point is true. The prophecy is not entirely fulfilled at this point. Please look at the catastrphic events more within the metaphor. I'll give you an example that is purely hypothetical.

    "Upon his entrance into the room, the sky fell silent. He opened the book and it shook the room like a great earthquake. Pictures fell from the wall and people could not stay in their seats.

    You see, this could be a board meeting about the sales for last month. We all understand the metaphor as equating to the seriousness of the event. Revelation is relaying things in the same manner. Therefore, the great quake would not be an actual quake, but that of human reaction to something that was revealed to them.

    The reason why we can't ignore the past from the first century is that the judgement is predicated on events over a long period of time, not just a momentary snapshot. And so, that is why I said it is MOSTLY our past. By all means continue to study and question and I am glad to meet you in this forum.

    One last point MR Emu, It doesn't matter that the Orthodox or any other sect of Christianity was connected to the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman Church is still extant. I sense that you are taking this a bit personal. I think I need to say here that I know that a lot of people don't want to know the truth of John's writings because they would take it as a personal attack. I regard my fellow humans as they are, and it doesn't matter to me what their religious affiliation is. Therefore, I am not attacking anyone personally and certainly not my fellow humans on this earth. I am only stating what the prophecy is saying at that is a topic for debate or discussion. One can reject the prophecy is they choose, but this should be based on understanding it.
     
  17. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Much to learn you have... not at all.

    I would love to know the truth of my Lord and Savior's revelation to John, I just have severe resevations about accepting the anti-Catholic propaganda you have decided is the truth... I didn't accept this stuff when I was a Southern Baptist and I'm not starting now without good reason...

    You say that you have put your theory up for scruntiny, well in my eyes it has been found wanting, you have given no reason to accept your interpretation except that you say it is so...
     
  18. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    :eek: Mr Emu !!!


    Tsk Tsk Tsk, you have proven my point!! Anti-Catholic propaganda?? oh puhleeeeeeeeez. I have stated and stated with you that I am not proposing an agenda of my own here, yet you insist upon throwing out barbs that demean me personally while presenting no viewpoint to disprove what I have found Revelation to be saying. Quite desperate debating technique. :tsk:

    Come on, present an opposing viepoint that has a point and isn't accusing someone else of catholic-bashing. I am much greater than that and I don't attack anyone or their religion. It is Revelation that says these things and that is only what I am stating.
     
  19. Cynic

    Cynic Well-Known Member

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    No, but interesting enough they persecuted other Pagans, the Jews, other Christian sects (that were accused of heresy), and as the reformation arose, Christians (Protestants and Catholics) began persecuting each other.

    Another thing I should add, this Babylon can be applied and has been applied to numerous things. How can anyone be certain that their interpretation is correct? I've heard that the mysterious Babylon was America, Iraq, Isreal, the Roman Catholic church, A European nation/alliance of European nations, False religions, the internet, the physical/material world, etc. There are so many things it can be applied to. Everything would have to match up perfectly, to the numerical values given (i.e. 10 heads), to every clue given, otherwise it becomes illogical to assume that any hypothesis is true.

    (But then again, I could argue how illogical it is to assume that the world is going to end supernaturally, but that would digress from the OP).
     
  20. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Hi Cynic,

    Your points are well taken. What is important is to not give a secular maodernist interpretation to a prophecy written almost 2,000 years ago. There is a kind of denial over the events of the last 2,000 years and these are ignored by some modern interpretations that continually project Revelation into the future. Martin Luther saw the metaphor and promptly identified the Harlot as being the Roman Catholic Church. John of Patmos wrote a prophecy opposing the very events portrayed in our scriptures and managed to get this opposing viewpoint included among them. This is most amazing.

    John of Patmos was objecting to the events in the 1st century CE that brought about the Christian Church in his time and he forsaw events coming in the future about this newly foormed Church. John borrowed heavily on the symbolic words of the OT prophets in Revelation. A short comparison will show my point.

    How the faithful city has become a harlot, she that was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.




    And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,

    and upon her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

    And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered greatly.

    And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I shall tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.




    This metaphor is describing a Church that has become the Harlot of Rome by selling out so to speak. The Church doctrine had to appeal to pagans if they were to be converted. Therefore to ignore the past is to misunderstand the prophecy altogether.


     
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