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What of the new feminist shift that agrees abortion is murder?

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
The former head of planned parenthood , Fay Waddleton, admits pro choice people decieve themselves if they think people don't know abortion is murder. Likewise feminist thought leader Naomi Wolf says the same along with others.

Why the shift? and will it be seen as a movement towards enlightenment or a hardening of hearts against an innocent life?

see How Should We Think About Abortion?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The former head of planned parenthood , Fay Waddleton, admits pro choice people decieve themselves if they think people don't know abortion is murder. Likewise feminist thought leader Naomi Wolf says the same along with others.

Why the shift? and will it be seen as a movement towards enlightenment or a hardening of hearts against an innocent life?

see How Should We Think About Abortion?
There are many flavors of feminism.
Always have been....even "libertarian feminism".
Is this really a shift in feminism, or the perception of those just learning of this diversity?
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's something easy to flip flop on. On the one side an unborn fetus doesn't really know what is going on, it's not really conscious. So in one way, it's not much different whether a person plans not to have a baby or has an abortion. A new human life never gains consciousness. It boils down to what is God going to say about it on the judgement day. Certainly God won't have anything good to say about abortion, so it seems better and wiser not to have one. But what about planning not to have children? Do people have an obligation to have children. If God is your concern there's only one way to do it right, and that's to get married. If God's concern was solely that people reproduce, marriage to one wife would be a hinderance to mass production of children.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The former head of planned parenthood , Fay Waddleton, admits pro choice people decieve themselves if they think people don't know abortion is murder. Likewise feminist thought leader Naomi Wolf says the same along with others.
Is there a transcript?
As much as I oppose elective abortion, the terminology in your OP is misleading at best. "Murder" has different definitions, most commonly "extralegal killing of human beings". There is no functional Scriptural definition that differs from that. I have my own definition, but it isn't the legal one.

Generally, I avoid using the word murder in discussions about abortion because it doesn't have a clear universal meaning.
Tom
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
The former head of planned parenthood , Fay Waddleton, admits pro choice people decieve themselves if they think people don't know abortion is murder.
Where did she say this? I can't find any evidence of any such statement.

Likewise feminist thought leader Naomi Wolf says the same along with others.
Also, where did she say this? If you're talking about what she wrote in "Our Bodies, Our Souls" (which doesn't mention abortion being murder), it was written over twenty years ago, so it can hardly be considered a recent "shift" in feminism.

Why the shift? and will it be seen as a movement towards enlightenment or a hardening of hearts against an innocent life?
Or it could be you dishonestly misrepresenting the views of these women and spinning an imaginary narrative that it represents a broad-reaching change of perspective in a global rights movement when it actually does no such thing.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
Religious law doesn't belong in secular America. The religious pro-life movement are trying to limit the mothers choice because of their religion. They are legislating religious law forced on people who don't care for religion. (never put the bible before the constitution)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Religious law doesn't belong in secular America. The religious pro-life movement are trying to limit the mothers choice because of their religion. They are legislating religious law forced on people who don't care for religion. (never put the bible before the constitution)
To be anti-abortion doesn't require a religious premise.
Some atheists are.
 

Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
Men's reproduction isn't regulated by the state -- and it shouldn't be. Neither should women's.
This is another thing Faye Wattleton said.
why are some so scared of feminism? why are we not free to chose how we practice our sexuality? Why can some old guys in government who never had to deal with the ramifications of unwanted pregnancy decide that women are not entitled to the protection insurance offers in regard to reproductive issues? why do we women have to pay for viagra and other sex aids for men--love that penis pump, that certainly needs my subsidy that i would rather spend on birth control for women. yeah, why are men so eager to control our sexuality and deny us healthcare as if we lived in some third world country ruled by some moronic despot? oops, we do, we got trumplet, bully boy par excellence, and his privileged minions.
answer those questions. and then remember, the rest of the western world provides sex education to their youth, birth control is easily available, and abortion is always the last resort. why do we still have to deal with puritan worldviews, but of course only as they apply to women? Feminism is the only thing that ever provided women with anything resembling hope for a more egalitarian life. so now we don't have communism to fear, and trumplet embraces Putin as a role model of despotism, nepotism, and bullying, we attack women and their scant rights again. how very advanced and civilized.
oops, it's sunday, maybe putin is out of favor again. hard to tell with that moron who sits in the white house.

anyhow, i would not worry about the great feminist plot invented by the extreme right and those afraid their toys will get distributed among all people. i would worry about the erosion of everyone's rights under the new white-boy only rule.
 

Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
Is there a transcript?
As much as I oppose elective abortion, the terminology in your OP is misleading at best. "Murder" has different definitions, most commonly "extralegal killing of human beings". There is no functional Scriptural definition that differs from that. I have my own definition, but it isn't the legal one.

Generally, I avoid using the word murder in discussions about abortion because it doesn't have a clear universal meaning.
Tom
no, she did not say murder. Wattleton said killing.
below is the site with the quote in its entirety.

Faye Wattleton Quote
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The former head of planned parenthood , Fay Waddleton, admits pro choice people decieve themselves if they think people don't know abortion is murder.

no, she did not say murder. Wattleton said killing.
below is the site with the quote in its entirety.

Faye Wattleton Quote
Well, one of you is decidedly more accurate than the other. Simurgh has a quote with her name attached. That's looking more evidenced to me.
The fact is, I don't care much about any opinions held by any one person. My view that elective abortion is immoral has been shaped and honed for decades, without attributing it to any authority figure at all.

But I do find it disheartening that the people who agree with me tend to be just as dishonest and given to fallacious arguments as the ones who don't. You look worse than most, to me, whirlingmerc. Either produce a quote from Ms. Wattleton using the word murder or I will be forced to assume that my current assessment is accurate.
Tom
 

Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
abortion is what it is, a medical procedure that terminates pregnancy. if you don't want to do that, then don't get one. those of you who are morally opposed, can do the same. i am morally opposed to the death sentence and sending kids into war so that they can die for those who benefit from grow wealthier than they already are. and by preference, i would also not have abortion be a solution to unwanted pregnancy. but treating women as if they were the only ones responsible for pregnancy is just stupidity. provide birth-control (yes, for free), because it is both a female and a male issue and stop vilifying women for being sexual creatures. men are involved too, just in case you are not aware of that, and given how americans seem to distrust and loath anything scientific that does not agree with their worldview, i am inclined to think that little fact has escaped the bible bangers who think denying women autonomy over their own bodies is blasphemy. hold men accountable for their attitudes toward sex and then maybe you can all start telling women that they ought to live up to the standards that men set. not that it's a difficult thing, the bar in that regard is pretty low. although, at my age i have a problem bending down that low, i am sure the young girls of today could manage.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Certainly God won't have anything good to say about abortion
Are you certain?
Numbers 31:17, Hosea 13:16, 2 Kings 15:16, 1 Samuel 15:3, Psalms 137:9, Judges 11:30-40, Exodus 12:29
It seems to me God has no problems with killing children, born or unborn.
 

Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
how about this article?
Abortion: What the Bible Says (and Doesn't Say) | The Huffington Post

it shows how ambivalent biblical writing is in regard to what constitutes new life, hence abortion and the rights of the fetus to life.
as with everything in regard to religious, in this case christian, writings, it is how it is interpreted that matters most. people who hide behind the text simply pick the few lines worth quoting, select the interpretation that seems most in tune with their attitudes and then act as if the ensuing statements were their god's own truth.

truly, man creates the gods he deserves. sad, too, that the rest of us who cannot get away from this religious opportunism have to live with it.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, one of you is decidedly more accurate than the other. Simurgh has a quote with her name attached. That's looking more evidenced to me.
The fact is, I don't care much about any opinions held by any one person. My view that elective abortion is immoral has been shaped and honed for decades, without attributing it to any authority figure at all.

But I do find it disheartening that the people who agree with me tend to be just as dishonest and given to fallacious arguments as the ones who don't. You look worse than most, to me, whirlingmerc. Either produce a quote from Ms. Wattleton using the word murder or I will be forced to assume that my current assessment is accurate.
Tom
\

I would like to hear that justification then. The posts below are my own justification that abortion in early period of pregnancy is moral,
each year many unborn babies are deliberately aborted.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Every now and then I consider starting a thread about why I find this issue so difficult. I get emotional about it. I have thought about it a lot. I have very nuanced opinions about it.
One of the most annoying aspects of discussing it here on RF is that most (all really) of the people who agree with my conclusions are like @whirlingmerc. Poorly informed and not too honest. I don't know that there is anyone on this forum who actually agrees with me, and all the arguments are pretty bad.
Such as the OP misrepresenting Ms. Wattleton.

Sigh,
Tom
 
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