I'll give you points for consistency. It's one of the things I like about you, honestly. Shame we're often on the opposite sides of issues, but still...*tips hat*
Well, thank you for the kind words. I honestly don't see too much of that around here, and it is refreshing. I do enjoy our discussions as well.
Not all people, or even MOST people, start from a position that this is inherently wrong, or a 'blemish'. My grandfather was a decorated soldier. A Kalinga warrior wears his 'medals' on his skin, permanently. My grandfather would put his medals in the cupboard most of the year (they now hang on my wall), whereas the Kalinga bore a permanent mark commemorating his actions.
Which is right? Neither. Both. To me there is no inherent difference in value.
The tattoo is deliberate and symbolic. A birth mark is a blemish, but speaks not in the least to the value of the person carrying it.
I am not a person that is very fond of medals either. To me it is a source of pride. I do not really accept the idea of it when people say that we should take pride in our work. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Rather than being proud because of our work, why not simply do our best because doing our best, especially when that is what we are being paid to do, is the right thing to do? You say that your grandfather's medals now hang on your wall. I would like to know why they are hanging on your wall. What is the value of them to you? I believe I threw my grandfathers medals into the trash. If not, I have no idea where they are anymore. Even if they were my medals, I might very well throw them in to the trash, unless they were of some substantial monetary value, in which case it makes more sense to me to sell them. What good does it do you having them, other than that they might give you a sense of pride and self worth, even though they are not even your medals? I guess I'm asking why are they
I suspect our definitions of adornment are going to differ. I offered Kalinga warriors as an example of this, whereby a tattoo is roughly equivalent to a medal in our society. But you may very well see medals as adornment as well.
I think I do to a certain extent. If you happen to receive a medal for something good you have done, and you actually wear that medal, I would call it an adornment. If you place it in a cupboard for others to see, I would call that an adornment as well. But if you put it in a box and put it up in the attic, I'd say that would not be an adornment in my view, but perhaps because it was not thrown into the trash, it remains a source of pride and self worth, knowing you still have it and not being very willing to part with it.
In some societies, tattoos are used to indicate marital status. This would include at least parts of New Zealand and Papua New Guinea that I've had direct exposure to. Like we would use a wedding ring.
Okay, now
that is a great point, and nearly caused me to concede. A wedding band at face value is not an adornment. I believe many are of course, but they didn't have to be. We would have to consider the motives and reasoning behind why each particular wedding band was purchased...why this one and not that one...why not the lesser expensive one over the more expensive one...why not one that is less gaudy over that which is more gaudy. To me, a "wedding band" at face value (based on the words alone) is not about anyone's self worth, but rather an unspoken expression to the entire world that "I belong to someone else...so leave me alone". Once we get into how pretty it is, or how expensive it is, it becomes an adornment in my opinion.
So to your point, and why you have shown that I may have used too broad a brush, I submit that a tattoo that is worn to indicate marital status is not always about increasing one's own self confidence. It's not necessarily about ego. And it's not always about pride.
It caught my attention too, but we may interpret it differently.
She didn't have the tattoos applied for reasons of pride, nor lack of self confidence. Rather, they were applied as part of her culture's norm. When she moved to a different culture, she felt that these tattoos were judged by a different measure. Rather than being seen as normal, or a mark of her womanhood, she believed they were associated with criminality. Later, she realised that some/many people were NOT judging her negatively, and she was able to speak about the meaning of the tattoo's. She felt pride at this.
I would have to say that I think that all cultural norms are rooted in pride. And so to participate in those cultural norms is participating in cultural pride. I believe we are getting into degrees of pride. There are degrees of pride that really stink. There are other degrees of pride that are more acceptable. And there are even other degrees of pride that should be encouraged. For example:
1. the belief that you are better or more important than other people is a pride that really stinks.
2. feelings of your own worth and respect for yourself is a pride that is more acceptable.
3. to feel very pleased about something or someone you are closely connected with is something to be encouraged. This is the sort of pride I was referring to when I was speaking of doing a good job because it's the right thing to do. We should perhaps feel pleased about doing the right thing.
Yet for some reason this bothers me too a little. When we do the right thing we shouldn't necessarily feel good about ourselves, because that is what we ought to do. It is what we should expect of ourselves. So we are doing nothing that we should feel good about when we do something good, we should just do the good because it is the right thing to do. But this is making my head spin a little, so I hope you get what I'm saying.
Apart from anything else, you are conflating the increased feeling of belonging/self worth that these can bring and the reason people get them in the first place. I don't believe the Kalinga woman got the tattoos because she was lacking in self worth. I believe she got them because it was the cultural norm in her society, and a way to mark her as a woman (rather than a girl). A rite of passage. All societies have these markers, although they vary greatly. I gave my wife a ring on our wedding day, and both thought about it, and can defend the symbolism of this. However, I am self-reflective enough to know why I chose this symbol over some others.
If my wife and I had chosen to etch our rings on our fingers, couldn't it simply be a way of permanently denoting the bond, rather than a ring which can easily be taken off?
You could be right...I could be conflating the two. Yet I have no idea why people would follow social norms except to be and feel accepted by those in their community. Had she not gotten the tattoos, her feelings of self worth would likely have diminished. She got them because her feelings of self worth increased. She didn't have to get them. She wants to feel accepted.
Obviously it's difficult for me to consider this in spiritual terms. I tend to think more along historical lines. But I think the guess you've made about setting the group apart is probably close to the mark.
Assume for a second you don't believe in the Abrahamaic God. Or that instead of circumcision, that God demanded a tattoo as a permanent mark of commitment.
Do you not then see a reason beyond mere decoration for a tattoo?
I don't know. Does obedience to God make us feel better about ourselves? If it does, getting a tattoo for God would add to our feelings of self worth and our pride in ourselves. I suppose it could jut be a matter of obedience without any emotional attachments, in which case, my brush would be to broad.
All piercings? Ear rings on women?
Not doubting you, just clarifying.
I know if I say yes, you're going to come up with something to force me to retract my statement. So for curiosities sake, I will say yes. All piercings and ear rings on women and men for that matter I would say are adornments, sources of pride and feelings of self worth.
I don't know if I'm right or not, but I've gotten the impression that when I put a collar on my dog it seems to display greater pride.
