What is wrong with the Quran?

[lewisnotmiller]

Infants are subject to their parents/guardians, If the parents or a parent within a family is Christian the whole family is "Christian" and saved by Christ on the judgement day, Which is the main benefit to being Christian. But not all infants on the whole earth are saved merely by being infants.

And you have no problem with that?

 

[Kemosloby]

And you have no problem with that?

Sure, "the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away", It's not an entitlement program.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sure, "the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away", It's not an entitlement program.

Cool. End of the day, you're the one worshipping him. If that's due to his power then fair enough.

 

[Tabu]

It relates to law in that context.

The modern concept of 'religion' is really from Western Christianity and only appeared a few hundred years ago.

Din probably means closer to 'way of life' rather than religion: living according to the religious law. It is something that reflects the Jewish heritage of Islam, as din is Hebrew for law.

Thanks , I get that word , and I think it delivers the same meaning as the Hindi/Sanskrit word 'Dharma' , also mostly translated as religion.
[ Hinduism, dharma signifies behaviors that are considered to be in accord with rta (order , rule), the order that makes life and universe possible,and includes duties, rights, laws, conduct, virtues and ‘‘right way of living’’]

But I still was wondering how it could give a meaning of 'Judgement ' , and the word 'Dharmaraj' struck to me. It is Dharm+Raj which means Lord of Justice , the one who brings order.

And From The Brahmakumari perspective,

God is referred to as Dharmraj when souls experience pain as punishment during the final purification process, of days of settlement in accordance to the Law of Karma.

Through the power of yoga (connection) with God, sinful accounts can also be burnt away slowly in the final days of settlement. Further, we can also receive God's help to maintain a happy, pain-free state, which is the soul-conscious bodiless state while the sinful accounts are burnt away.

 

[Kemosloby]

Cool. End of the day, you're the one worshipping him. If that's due to his power then fair enough.

I haven't worshipped anything yet. But if on the last day I get resurrected into paradise, I might not mind so much. But let me ask since your so worried about the infants. Are you pro abortion?

 

[firedragon]

All infidels must die ... Muslim girls are simply incubators and the 72 virgin thing tells me all I need to know about the Koran.

Though I understand where you probably get this from, since you said Koran, show me where in the Quran these things are said.

1. ALL infidels must die
2. Muslim girls are simply incubators
3. 72 virgins

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

Thanks , I get that word , and I think it delivers the same meaning as the Hindi/Sanskrit word 'Dharma' , also mostly translated as religion.
[ Hinduism, dharma signifies behaviors that are considered to be in accord with rta (order , rule), the order that makes life and universe possible,and includes duties, rights, laws, conduct, virtues and ‘‘right way of living’’]

But I still was wondering how it could give a meaning of 'Judgement ' , and the word 'Dharmaraj' struck to me. It is Dharm+Raj which means Lord of Justice , the one who brings order.

And From The Brahmakumari perspective,

God is referred to as Dharmraj when souls experience pain as punishment during the final purification process, of days of settlement in accordance to the Law of Karma.

Through the power of yoga (connection) with God, sinful accounts can also be burnt away slowly in the final days of settlement. Further, we can also receive God's help to maintain a happy, pain-free state, which is the soul-conscious bodiless state while the sinful accounts are burnt away.

Deen actually is not equal to Dharma. Dharma could mean dheen too. But dheen is a bit simpler than dharma. Dharma could mean system. Deen is simply system.

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[Tabu]

Deen actually is not equal to Dharma. Dharma could mean dheen too. But dheen is a bit simpler than dharma. Dharma could mean system. Deen is simply system.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Taken From Wikipedia page Din (Arabic) - Wikipedia
Some Qur'anic scholars have translated Dīn in places as "faith" Others suggest that the term "has been used in various forms and meanings, e.g., system, power, supremacy, ascendancy, sovereignty or lordship, dominion, law, constitution, mastery, government, realm, decision, definite outcome, reward and punishment. On the other hand, this word is also used in the sense of obedience, submission and allegiance".

In addition to the two broad usages referred to so far, of sovereignty on the one hand and submission on the other, others have noted that the term Dīn is also widely used in translations of the Qur'an in a third sense. Most famously in its opening chapter, al-Fātiḥah, the term is translated in almost all English translations as "judgment":

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I haven't worshipped anything yet. But if on the last day I get resurrected into paradise, I might not mind so much. But let me ask since your so worried about the infants. Are you pro abortion?

Yeah, because that's the same.

You suppose an all-powerful God able to do quite literally whatever he wants. This God has a heaven he reserved for believers, which apparently excludes babies of atheists but includes babies of believers, regardless of the fact that the babies have obviously never made a choice.

And you want to compare that to me? I'm just a person, mate, flawed and all the rest. No-one worshipping me. For what it's worth, I'm pro choice, but have never aborted anything. Nor do I believe I would.

 

[Kemosloby]

Yeah, because that's the same.

You suppose an all-powerful God able to do quite literally whatever he wants. This God has a heaven he reserved for believers, which apparently excludes babies of atheists but includes babies of believers, regardless of the fact that the babies have obviously never made a choice.

And you want to compare that to me? I'm just a person, mate, flawed and all the rest. No-one worshipping me. For what it's worth, I'm pro choice, but have never aborted anything. Nor do I believe I would.

And perhaps God is "pro-choice" also, those who do not love the truth and love God are not chosen because they chose the opposite.

 

[IndigoStorm]

Though I understand where you probably get this from, since you said Koran, show me where in the Quran these things are said.

1. ALL infidels must die
2. Muslim girls are simply incubators
3. 72 virgins

Cheers.

Literally, the Koran says the following about the Jews, Christians, and other “unbelievers:”

“O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” (Sura 5, verse 51).

“And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah DESTROY them; how they are turned away!” (Sura 9, verse 30).

“And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.” (Sura 2, verse 120).

“And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.” (Sura 2, verse 191).

 

[IndigoStorm]

The specific Hadith in which the number of virgins is specified is Hadith Al-Tirmidhi in the Book of Sunah (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah, chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise. The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Quranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman:

"The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]."

(QURAN 37:40-4 : "In the Gardens of Paradise, Facing one another on thrones, Round them will be passed a cup of pure wine; White, delicious to the drinkers, Neither they will have any kind of hurt, abdominal pain, headache, or sin, nor will they suffer intoxication from it. And with them will be chaste females, restraining their glances, with wide and beautiful eyes."

(QURAN 44:51-55): "Verily! The righteous will be in Paradise. Among Gardens and Springs; Dressed in fine silk and also in thick silk, facing each other, and We shall marry them to Houris with wide, lovely eyes."

(QURAN 52: 17-20): "Verily, for those who fear Allah there will be Gardens in Paradise, filled with Delight. Enjoying in that which their Lord has bestowed on them, and the fact that their Lord saved them from the torment of the blazing Fire. The Lord will say: ‘Eat and drink with happiness because of what you used to do’. They will recline with ease on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Houris with wide lovely eyes."

(QURAN 55:54-59): "Reclining upon the couches lined with silk brocade, and the fruits of the Gardens will be near at hand. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Wherein will be those houris, restraining their glances upon their husbands, whom no man or jinn has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse before. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? In beauty they are like rubies and coral. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny?"

(QURAN 55:70-77): "Therein gardens will be fair wives good and beautiful; Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Houris restrained in pavilions; Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Whom no man has opened their hymens with sexual intercourse before. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny? Reclining on green cushions and rich beautiful mattresses. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you deny?"

(QURAN 56:37-40): "...We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand…."

(QURAN 78:31-34): "As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high-bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup."

 

[firedragon]

Literally, the Koran says the following about the Jews, Christians, and other “unbelievers:”

“O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” (Sura 5, verse 51).

“And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah DESTROY them; how they are turned away!” (Sura 9, verse 30).

“And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.” (Sura 2, verse 120).

“And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.” (Sura 2, verse 191).

Maybe I should repeat.

1. ALL infidels must die
2. Muslim girls are simply incubators
3. 72 virgins

The three of them were your accusations. Did you just pull them out of a hat?

You tried to answer the first question and still failed. Do the verses you pasted say "ALL INFIDELS MUST DIE?"

And what about the 2nd and 3rd statements you made? Can you provide evidence?

Edit: Your original statement "All infidels must die ... Muslim girls are simply incubators and the 72 virgin thing tells me all I need to know about the Koran."

 

[IndigoStorm]

I doubt that incubators had been invented when the Koran was compiled ... however it was simply a euphemism for this:

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176). In Islam, sexism is mathematically established.
Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Muslim apologists offer creative explanations to explain why Allah felt that a man's testimony in court should be valued twice as highly as a woman's, but studies consistently show that women are actually less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they make more reliable witnesses.

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands, if there is no water to purify them, following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Quran (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye. (To be fair, men are told to do the same thing in the prior verse).

Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse. If this is what Muhammad meant, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).

Quran (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.

Quran (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.

Quran (4:24) and Quran (33:50) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses).

 

[IndigoStorm]

Maybe I should repeat.

1. ALL infidels must die
2. Muslim girls are simply incubators
3. 72 virgins

The three of them were your accusations. Did you just pull them out of a hat?

You tried to answer the first question and still failed. Do the verses you pasted say "ALL INFIDELS MUST DIE?"

And what about the 2nd and 3rd statements you made? Can you provide evidence?

Edit: Your original statement "All infidels must die ... Muslim girls are simply incubators and the 72 virgin thing tells me all I need to know about the Koran."

Who says I failed to answer?

 

[IndigoStorm]

Maybe I should repeat.

1. ALL infidels must die
2. Muslim girls are simply incubators
3. 72 virgins

The three of them were your accusations. Did you just pull them out of a hat?

You tried to answer the first question and still failed. Do the verses you pasted say "ALL INFIDELS MUST DIE?"

And what about the 2nd and 3rd statements you made? Can you provide evidence?

Edit: Your original statement "All infidels must die ... Muslim girls are simply incubators and the 72 virgin thing tells me all I need to know about the Koran."

Any fair minded person, unless they have been living in a galaxy far far away since 9/11, will know that the three points I made, not accusations as you claim, are true.

 

[sovietchild]

Any fair minded person, unless they have been living in a galaxy far far away since 9/11, will know that the three points I made, not accusations as you claim, are true.

Who brought the #7 building down on 9/11?

 

[firedragon]

Any fair minded person, unless they have been living in a galaxy far far away since 9/11, will know that the three points I made, not accusations as you claim, are true.

You said they are in the Quran.

Your original statement "All infidels must die ... Muslim girls are simply incubators and the 72 virgin thing tells me all I need to know about the Koran."

Or do you not understand the point.

Again I say "YOU SAID ITS IN THE QURAN"

Show me where. Thats all. If you cant show me its alright. Just accept that you made that statement based on what you see in the world and around you or whatever, not in the Quran.

Do you understand??

 

[IndigoStorm]

Steady on ... no need to get sarcastic. I understand everything you have said. One should keep a civil tongue in one's head when discussing religion.

 

[Notanumber]

The Quran
Was it really the eternal word of God to Mankind?

The Muslim claim is based on circular reasoning:

We know the Quran was from Allah because Muhammad said so and we know that Muhammad spoke for Allah because the Quran says so.

Explore the Quran (Taqiyya-free)