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What is the Trinity?

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Bart D. Ehrman tells the story in several of his books.
I have read Bart Ehrman's books also.
And the closest he comes to your description is that "...It could be..."
bart Ehrman has no problem with the manuscripts of the Bible, or Jesus's claim that He said he was God.
Ehrman just has a problem with miracles, and he made accusations that a virgin birth "Might originate" from Isis who impregnated herself with Osiri's phalus.
Might, and perhaps is not facts.
When James White took him on about the mythology and manuscripts, Bart respectfully conceded that it was only a proposal, with no facts.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Or Jesus came from Egypt.
Or Israel came from Egypt.
What a huge step to claim Christology came from Egypt.
Evidence please on what about Egyptiam mythology has relationjs to jesus.
I will appreciate it for I have been searching for quite a while on such claims with no success.
I had direct revelation that lead to several sources. Real Bethlehem was in Egypt: "then there was famine in all the lands, but in all the land of Egypt there was bread." Gen. 41
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
The Bible, not Rome, first taught the trinitarian nature of God.

There are many things that can be compared to a trinity, for example, I'm a son and also a father, without conflict, and the Bible uses marriage, where man, woman and God are three like-minded persons, yet with different personalities.
However, I am a father, son and myself, can not leave me to be a Father whilse the Son is elsewhere.
The Trinity can be in full glory with the Father, Son and Spirit all in one, as He appeared to Moses, or He can be as the Spirit alone hovering above creation or with dwell us, or as the Angel of the Covenant and the glory of God in the tabernacle.
each can leave and act as God, and they can be one with the father, I can not be a father, Son or myseld without one leaving my existance.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
Its like the water Ice and steam.
You can not have all 3 joined at once.
or the shell, egg youlk. and white.
You cant take one out, and call the other an egg.
A shell is not an egg, neither is steam Ice.
But the Trinity is God, and the Word and Spirit can leave the Existance, and each can act as God.
Yeat they can join and still be God, the same one.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
I have read Bart Ehrman's books also.
And the closest he comes to your description is that "...It could be..."
bart Ehrman has no problem with the manuscripts of the Bible, or Jesus's claim that He said he was God.
Ehrman just has a problem with miracles, and he made accusations that a virgin birth "Might originate" from Isis who impregnated herself with Osiri's phalus.
Might, and perhaps is not facts.
When James White took him on about the mythology and manuscripts, Bart respectfully conceded that it was only a proposal, with no facts.
I understand that the Bible is a theological treatise designed to fit many spiritual levels. The real information comes direct "in spirit and truth".
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I do hope we get some good answers here. I have never understood the idea of the Trinity, but find it fascinating.
It is not of my personal beliefs, but as a European it is a part of my history and heritage.
Thanks for posting @SA Huguenot
It looks to me like the only relationship we can have with God as a person is with Jesus and with the Holy Spirit, so for those purposes, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. “Person” and “not person” don’t apply to God and the Holy Spirit. Calling God a person and the Holy Spirit a person is just a convenience, to be able to say “three persons.”
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Bart D. Ehrman tells the story in several of his books.

Ehrman is a left-wing loon. He was roundly refuted in the following book:

655477._UY400_SS400_.jpg
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Document those early edits, and who made them and when?

If you can't then all you have is an unfounded claim with no evidence to back it up.
First, who? The Church Fathers.

Second, a clear example of editing ot the gospel Matthew ending to support the Trinity. Matthew 28:18 was added and edited.to include ' . . . in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.'

From: Matthew 28:19 - A Verse Used to Support the Trinity | BiblicalUnitarian.com

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (NIV)

1. Eusebius (c. 260—c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Although he wrote prolifically, his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Today it is still the principal work on the history of the Church at that time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it appears today in modern Bibles, but always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

Again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicaea and was involved in the debates about Arian teaching and whether Christ was God or a creation of God. We feel confident that if the manuscripts he had in front of him read “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” he would never have quoted it as “in my name.” Thus, we believe that the earliest manuscripts read “in my name,” and that the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.

2. If Matthew 28:19 is accurate as it stands in modern versions, then there is no explanation for the apparent disobedience of the apostles, since there is not a single occurrence of them baptizing anyone according to that formula. All the records in the New Testament show that people were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, just as the text Eusebius was quoting said to do. In other words, the “name of Jesus Christ,” i.e., all that he represents, is the element, or substance, into which people were figuratively “baptized.” “Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins’” (Acts 2:38). “They had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 8:16). “So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 10:48). “On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 19:5). We cannot imagine any reason for the Apostles and others in Acts to disobey a command of the risen Christ. To us, it seems clear that Christ said to baptize in his name, and that was what the early Church did."

more to follow . . .
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Ehrman is a left-wing loon. He was roundly refuted in the following book:

655477._UY400_SS400_.jpg
He may be but when he gives information about MSS and tells about corrections in ink that anyone can see I have no reason suspect a lie.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
When I seeked for the above evidence, I saw it dated from the 9th century.
Long after the new testament was concluded.
it is not a Traditional Christna believ, but what I understand from the Bible.

The Trinity is indeed a dominant traditional belief held by most Christians since the New Testament was compiled by the Church Fathers.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Bible, not Rome, first taught the trinitarian nature of God.

The New Testamant was compiled, edited and redacted by the Roman and Greek Church Fathers.

There are many things that can be compared to a trinity, for example, I'm a son and also a father, without conflict, and the Bible uses marriage, where man, woman and God are three like-minded persons, yet with different personalities.

. . . but the comparisons are meaningless analogs, and cannot be remotely compared to the nature of God.

Your analogy above would justify the Trinity as a polytheistic concept of tritheism.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I do not see why people cannot grasp the idea of "God" beibg like a family. In a family you can have a husband and a wife and one or more children. They are all completely separate people but they make up one family. "God" is one :God" but there are more than one "person" in that one "God" just like there are more than one person in that one family. In fact God says we can all become part of His family. So "God" MAY consist of millions of "persons", not just three.

You just described God in terms of a polytheistic concept.
 
The argument does not support that the Trinity was 'concocted by Constantine. The argument is that the concept of the Trinity developed under the Roman and Greek Church Fathers who dominated Christianity is a much better documented view. The NEw Testament was edited to support the Trinity.

There seems to have been a father/son binity from very early on, but it's less certain when belief that the Holy Spirit made it a trinity.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There seems to have been a father/son binity from very early on, but it's less certain when belief that the Holy Spirit made it a trinity.

There seem to be a number of variable beliefs early on as well as a lot of debate and disagreement.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
You just described God in terms of a polytheistic concept.
Absolutely not. If there is a family consisting of a husband and a wife and a child, that is ONE family not three. If there is a God consisting of a Father and a Son and a Holy Spirit that is ONE God not three. Why would there be any difference? God says we can all be adopted children in His family so there can still be ONE God made up of many parts.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
There seems to have been a father/son binity from very early on, but it's less certain when belief that the Holy Spirit made it a trinity.
I think you are exactly right. The Bible says the Word was with God and was God. You must remember that Gos is a spirit and because God is holy then his spirit is holy. God IS the holy spirit. There is not a separate spirit that is also holy. Just the one spirit of God. Somewhere along the line people started to think of this as a separate "person" but there is no reason to believe this.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I thought I should open a thread to discuss the Trinity to clarify the details to benefit my own thinking. I love to discuss such topics on forums like this, to get all the information sorted, and all the arguments noted.

The argument against the Trinity goes as such.

Trinitarians believe in 3 gods. The Trinity was concocted by Constantine, or some even claim that Paul invented the Trinity. The Unitarians again, they claim that the Trinity derived from Egyptian or Indian paganism.

Be as it may, I believe in the Trinity where God the Father is revealed as YHWH, He has a Word, who we know as Jesus, and a Spirit we call the Holy Ghost.

I am quite convinced from the Bible that YHWH is a Trinity, and to me it does not mean a polytheistic god at all.
Please note, If I believed the Trinity are 3 gods, I will be the first to condemn this concept.

With about 4 questions to anyone who claims the Trinity is inexplainable, and confusing to understand, everyone will be able to understand the Trinity.

Here is the first question.

Is there anything in the Universe that can be compared with the Trinity?

Christian apologists say it is not possible, because if there is anything we can compare with God, we will obviously have a second god.

It is a reasonable claim, but what does God say, can we compare Him to anything?

I believe that the Trinity is taken from the Ancient Near Easts idea of the nature of gods. Their Gods could be the same person plus could act individually at the same time. They were considered to be able to incarnate in multiple idols at the same time while simultaneously existing in heaven, which is reflected in YHWH by him being able to incarnate as Angels and Jesus. YHWH blending with them is apparent because both Jesus and the Angels have their own individuality while also being declared God. According to Benjamin Sommer, a Jewish Scholar, this is how the early Jews saw God up until a point. From what I have read from his book, reading the texts of near eastern mythology it seems pretty obvious that this is the case. Unitarians are wrong, since in many cases, such as when the voice of God speaks to Adam, when Abraham meets three men with one only being called Yahweh, they are reading into the text by saying that is not really YHWH but an agent. Also, obviously the Jews believe in one God, so the what is relevant is only the nature of an individual God, not that Jesus and angels are seperate Gods. They would be Avatars with Gods essence in them.

There are multiple ways I could explain this viewpoint and the Trinity using real world comparisons or fictional ones from Science fiction.

One is:
God is the Tony Stark. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two different Iron man armours controlled by Tony who is at headquarters.

Two is:
The Force. The force in Star Wars is said to be sentient and can be manifest in individuals. I read somewhere that George Lucas actually based the force on his idea of the Abrahamic god.

Three is:
Water, if it was sentient and seen as one big individual. It would be one being, but on land parts of it would be separate from the main being, but present in everything. The Abrahamic God would not be in everything but certainly the Holy Spirit is said to be in all believers.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Could be, but when one reads the Bible and sees the following claims.
1. man was made in the immage of God.
2. God can not die.
3. Adam was created immortal.
4. Adam had a "Mind of his own", free will.
5. Adam changed and started to age / die
6. man has a Spirit that can not die, and ends up in paradise of hell.
7. Jesus removed death, and He was the Word.
8. Jesus returned to the Father, and are one with the Father.
The Spirit and God is one.

Then it is easily explained through the concept of salvation.
Man is a trinity in the immage of the Existance, the Word, and Spirit.
One God, which Spirit and Word can leave at free will and act as YHWH.
And man a trinity of body, mind and spirit.

I also found this online article which describes how Greek/Roman thought may have influenced the development of the trinity idea:

Greek Philosophy's Influence on the Trinity Doctrine
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I thought I should open a thread to discuss the Trinity to clarify the details to benefit my own thinking. I love to discuss such topics on forums like this, to get all the information sorted, and all the arguments noted.

The argument against the Trinity goes as such.

Trinitarians believe in 3 gods. The Trinity was concocted by Constantine, or some even claim that Paul invented the Trinity. The Unitarians again, they claim that the Trinity derived from Egyptian or Indian paganism.

Be as it may, I believe in the Trinity where God the Father is revealed as YHWH, He has a Word, who we know as Jesus, and a Spirit we call the Holy Ghost.

I am quite convinced from the Bible that YHWH is a Trinity, and to me it does not mean a polytheistic god at all.
Please note, If I believed the Trinity are 3 gods, I will be the first to condemn this concept.

With about 4 questions to anyone who claims the Trinity is inexplainable, and confusing to understand, everyone will be able to understand the Trinity.

Here is the first question.

Is there anything in the Universe that can be compared with the Trinity?

Christian apologists say it is not possible, because if there is anything we can compare with God, we will obviously have a second god.

It is a reasonable claim, but what does God say, can we compare Him to anything?
God is three aspects. they are mind, body, spirit.

when the mind, body is dual then there is conflict and the spirit is constantly in turmoil, destructive. when the two become one then the spirit becomes creative.

so then the body is not a single thing vs all other things. it is all conditions that are a result of the unconditional.

there was nothing begotten that wasn't begotten of it.
 
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