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What is the correct age for sexual and marital consent for a girl?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Vendetta, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. MissAlice

    MissAlice Well-Known Member

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    Really? I'm confused. To me pedophilia is pedophilia no matter what the culture. :confused:


    I also wanted to add that not all girls are courted in the sense of having consent. Many in cultures are forced by family members and society. Not all girls get to decide at what age they can consent or get to choose who they marry. Just because a culture says it's ok doesn't mean it's always right.

    On the otherhand, the subject at question, I think it depends psychologically. There is a blurry line that is hard to define. Many laws make a distinct line to protect children from being "courted" regardless of gender. Just because a girl hits the beginning of puberty doesn't always mean she is ready to be a mother.
     
  2. Vendetta

    Vendetta "Oscar the grouch"

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    Well Miss Alice the cultural norms were addressed kindly by some of our Jewish and western members. Some people think girls who are ib arrange marriages are forced. Well, from outside looking in it appears that way but unless we are apart of that culture we don't know. When I said pedophilia is wrong all around I essentially say that most if not all cultures believe having sexual relation with little kiddies is wrong.
     
    #62 Vendetta, Apr 22, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  3. Rakhel

    Rakhel Honey badger.

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    excuse my ignorance but..."little muddies"?
     
  4. Vendetta

    Vendetta "Oscar the grouch"

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    Yeah I corrected that. It was meant to say kiddies my phone auto corrects unless I manually put the word in, in the phone dictionary
     
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  5. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen uǝɥʇɐǝH ɹǝɥʇɐℲ

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    But as this thread demonstrates, some attempt to justify pedophilia as a "cultural norm". They would see great harm and damage done to a child just to sustain their delusions. But no matter how hard they try, anyone who would hurt a child just for personal pleasure is the lowest filth imaginable.
     
    #65 Father Heathen, Apr 22, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
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  6. Vendetta

    Vendetta "Oscar the grouch"

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    Agreed. However we ought to identify those "some cultures." Pedophilia is a clinical diagnosis per individual not an entire culture. This is why I brought up the whole Muhammad issue. Assuming if she indeed was 9 years old, because those cultures are ancient by comparison it is arguable that a 9 or even 10 year old can consent to sex. Yes that is something we hate to imagine but then again that is why I brought up Mary who was 14 with a 30 year old Joseph. Society can focus on Muhammad but not Joseph?
     
  7. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen uǝɥʇɐǝH ɹǝɥʇɐℲ

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    Except when things can be measured by logic, consequences, action and reaction, cause and effect, etc. Thus some things are not just a matter of opinion.
     
  8. MissAlice

    MissAlice Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a bit confusing and I'm not saying all girls are miserable when they're arranged in a marriages. I suppose my biggest complaint is when a man twice or much old than a small girl decides he can court and marry her without HER permission. Sexual consent aside, I do think men have more freedom than females and to me this is more about power than sex. Girls who are too small to know what's going on or have no rights to protect them will be far more likely imo to live miserable lives. I think though you underestimate this being just a culture thing put on girls. There is some acceptance in Pashtun culture called Bacha Bazi where boys dress like girls and dance for men much older than themselves. Many of them become sexual slaves yet few complain as they have no rights to protect them. So I don't think this is just a girl issue, it's just that in patriarchal societies it is more acceptable than say an older woman with a younger man or a man with a younger boy. Not enough laws are instilled to protect children who are too little and not as knowledgeable as their "suitors".
     
  9. Vendetta

    Vendetta "Oscar the grouch"

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    Well boy dressing up as girls in that culture is beyond this thread and perhaps that what you mentioned addresses another issue. Does a 30 year-old man have a right to court a 14 year old? Well as some have indicated here age can be known as a arbitrary number which leaves no indication on the psychological maturity of the girl. I think what makes a grown man tryin to marry a little girl abhorrent are our social ideas and associations of an older mature male interaction with a minor. If you go back to Levites post he makes a good point
     
  10. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen uǝɥʇɐǝH ɹǝɥʇɐℲ

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    Wow. Where was this that no one, not even law enforcement, batted an eye at the sexual abuse of a child? Secondly, what worthless whore of a mother would stay with a lowlife who did such horrible things to her own child? Sounds like a disgraceful fail of a town.
     
  11. jarofthoughts

    jarofthoughts Empirical Curmudgeon

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    Not defending Joseph here, nor condoning marrying off young teenagers, but there is a world of difference between the average 9 year old and the average 14 year old.
     
  12. Rakhel

    Rakhel Honey badger.

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    That town had a lot of failings.The schools, the cops. A lot of things and kids fell through the cracks.

    I still have friends there and it has improve...a little bit.
     
  13. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    Yeah, I agree. Thats why I said:

    Every one's logic is flawed to some degree. In other words, your measure of logic might allow you to reach the correct conclusion the majority of the time but not always.
     
  14. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
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    I will expand, my mother-in-law was married at 16 to a man 7 years her senior. As a father, I would have never allowed that to happen to my daughter.

    In light of my mother-in-law being happily married for 50 years now, if I where her father and applied my logic and reasoning, I would have reached the wrong conclusion.
     
  15. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur
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    Since it is impractical and impossible to guage the mental and emotional maturity of every person, I think baseline ages are the best we can do.

    In general, yes, 18 is our baseline-- not necessarily because it is some magical age-- but that is the age at which we expect young people to be mature. In a sense, we train them to become mature at around that age (ie, graduating highschool, leaving home, starting college or job, etc).

    In past cultures, kids were honed to become mature at earlier ages, so I can understand a lower age limit back in pioneer days when women had two kids and a farm to run at 17.

    I do think there is a lower limit, though, regardless of how mature you and your culture raise your child to be; perhaps 14, at minimum.

    That said, I do think there should be exceptions built in for teens exploring their sexuality with other minors. I don't think a 16 year old boy should be tried for having sex with his 15 year old girlfriend.

    Why the difference? After all, sex is sex. I think because there is less of the innate power, control, and opportunity for nefarious coercion. However, once you reach the baseline age of maturity (18 in our culture), then I think you're fair game essentially for anyone of whatever age.
     
  16. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur
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    My close friend dated a man 7 years her senior starting at age 16 too. We all counseled her to be careful, and kept a close eye on the relationship. I became good friends with her boyfriend, and got to know the guy and trust him. She married him at 18, and they've been going strong for 7 years now. I agree: it's good to take variability in to consideration when possible. Not all older men are rapacious predators.
     
  17. blackout

    blackout Violet.

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    Well, what's the correct age for a guy to go out courting a girl for marriage?
     
  18. Kathryn

    Kathryn Most Spoiled Woman Ever

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    Amen.

    I was twenty when I got married and by the time I was 26 I had four children. And I was (and still am) a very good mother. But I am the oldest of my siblings, I had a mother who had some psychological issues, and these two circumstances of my life forced me to become more mature and responsible, and nurturing, early on in my life. By the time I was about 17 or so, I would have been fully capable of being a good mother.

    Consequently, both my daughters have also matured early. They both married young (age 20) and between them they now have seven children (the oldest is 28 and has four kids, the youngest is 26 and has three). They are both married to very good men who are also good fathers. Their lives are in order - no serious debt, no chaos, no substance abuse issues (or any abuse issues), and healthy, balanced households with healthy, happy kids.

    They and their husbands are well on their way in their careers - and already saving for retirement. When they are fifty, and still probably very healthy and vigorous, their kids will be grown and they will be able financially to enjoy some of the best years of their lives.

    I also know many people their age who are totally unprepared to be adults. Or unwilling, not really sure which. And if their parents want to continue to allow them to be dependent, that's fine - it's their choice. But it's not my family's choice.

    I am 49 and my husband is 53. Our kids are grown (well, we have one 17 year old bringing up the rear, but he graduates in one month!). Our youngest will enter college this year, and he fully expects to work while in school and cover some of his expenses. He also knows that if he doesn't apply himself to college, we're cutting off the financial aid and he'll be expected to make his own way in this world - quickly.

    Meanwhile, we're both feeling very young and energetic, and are enjoying life without a houseful of big, grown kids -we'd rather buy stuff for grandbabies than adults anyway!

    My four grown kids, who are all 100 percent self sufficient (ages 22 through 28) have never ONE TIME borrowed money from me, or asked me to support them financially in any way after reaching adulthood. Now, that doesn't mean I haven't been generous with them in other ways, or helpful when necessary - but I've raised self sufficient and responsible people who are well equipped to make it on their own.

    I am very proud of each of them. And the really cool thing is that now that they are adults, I get to see a side of them that's new - a side that feels protective and nurturing of ME. Wow, that's a brain twister - but I like it!
     
  19. Vendetta

    Vendetta "Oscar the grouch"

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    As it was mentioned earlier age is arbitrary, I think there are social conditions that must be met in order for a boy to find a wife. For example, can he support himself along with other people? Is he educated? Does he work? Is he fiscally responsible?

    In western culture more specifically black culture we are taught to be out of the house at 18, have a job and can fend for ourselves. In other cultures that is not the case so these variations will shape the mentality of the young man coming into the world. But I believe if we absolutely put a number on it I want to say 21.

    I believe getting married should treated a lot like drinking and driving. Marriage is a priviledge not a right. I believe with all the infidelity and high rates of divorce people ought to be more careful and should have the sense that marriage is serious business.

    As far as sexual consent is concerned, if a kid is listening to Justin Beiber he or she shouldn't be sexually active.
     
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  20. Wills191

    Wills191 Member

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    Everyone "matures" at different ages and we continue to "grow up" all through our lives, I don't think theres a set age. So it's difficult..

    But IMO 16 for males and females is about right as it fits in with school and other significant "coming of age" milestones.
     
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