What is sexually immoral?

[Nada]

What I read is that every instance of a passage using some form of Greek word pornea is talking about prostitution. Every passage that uses the phrase, "sexual immorality," is speaking about prostitution. Every version that interprets pornea in some other way has misrepresented the true meaning of the passage. The depth of the issue goes even deeper if one considers that:

1 Corinthian 6: 9;
“9*Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes*nor sodomites”
scripture

“* [6:9] The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the “cupbearer of the gods,” whose Latin name was Catamitus. The term translated sodomites refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys. See similar condemnations of such practices in Rom 1:26–27; 1 Tm 1:10.”
scripture

refers to "boy prostitutes," and from their translates "sodomites" which then is construed as homosexuality.

What I saw in all your references from Strongs (which by the way, the interlinear NT referenced G4203 in Strongs) was the reverse purpose of translating Greek words by interjecting other translations apparently coming out of differing Bible versions. None of which has any support from the tools used to interpret the word, pornea.

For instance, why would 6: 9 use, ("neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes*nor sodomites”") the words idolaters, adulterers, boy prostitutes, and, sodomites if not to list separate issues. Why then does Strong's combine all these into one phrase to be defined as "sexual immorality?" Idolatry has nothing to do with sexual immorality. Sure the act of adultery represents an act contrary to God's image. As does prostitution; the kidnapping of boys off the streets forcing them into temple prostitution; sodomites (come on!) is just a cover-up of the real abuse of pedophilia; and then some versions use the word homosexuality. Wow! a real stretch of the word, pornea.

I must ask, why does Christianity insist on changing the meaning of the Bible?

So you think prostitution, in this sense, is referring to literal prostitution like today? Selling their bodies for money? Is that right?

 

[Nada]

First ask yourself what Jesus' usage of "lust" was referring to. What was the sin that lust portrays? Which then takes us back to the meaning of sin. What is the meaning of sin. There is only one sin. Anything else is construed as moralism. Does that mean that underlying any moralism is the sin as defined in the Bible? No! Morals tend to be social, what a community deems as acceptable, or not. Hence, moralism but not, biblical, except in the sense of the Jewish Cult ( not being derogatory about Judaism) or, Christianity. The word cult here is referring to the rituals, the doctrine of a religion; that which establishes their identity.

I would respond to your question on lust but you failed to quote a passage. Give me a passage and I will address the meaning of lust in that passage using more than my above opinion.

Born Catholic, raised Catholic, left the Church when Vatican II was finalized because I could not accept that the Church had changed what I was taught as sacred. Married a Jesus Freak and studied under Protestant mentors (ELCA). Married for 35 years and I've studied for over 40 years. Today, the best I could answer your question with is that at the most I could be call an agnostic but personally, that borders on considering myself an atheist.

I understand that Christianity has changed since its beginning. Jesus did not establish Christianity. Jesus was Jewish and did not expound on a new religion. Jesus' divinity was established as the Early Church progressed, developed. At the very least Jesus was a prophet.

One's faith is not what one believes. Faith is unconditional. No man knows God and if man claims such knowledge then God does not exist. A personal god is not God. God, as infinite, is beyond any existential expression man can conjure up about God. One must keep this in mind as they worship in their house of God, or god.

God decides what is moral or immoral,not man.Without God stating so,man would not know.

 

[Nada]

Well, there is nothing here that takes me by surprise. The symbolism, the idolatry of it all. What you have failed to recognize is that fornication is prostitution. What adultery represents is much what fornication represents and both are really about idolatry. From Judaism to Christianity, the meaning of "sexual immorality" is prostitution. Why does Christianity change that meaning? Why do you ignore the meaning? You are skirting what is obvious. But why?

I do not fail to realize anything and I do not ignore anything.

 

[Scott C.]

Fir
Born Catholic, raised Catholic, left the Church when Vatican II was finalized because I could not accept that the Church had changed what I was taught as sacred. Married a Jesus Freak and studied under Protestant mentors (ELCA). Married for 35 years and I've studied for over 40 years. Today, the best I could answer your question with is that at the most I could be call an agnostic but personally, that borders on considering myself an atheist.

The problem I have with engaging with you on this subject, is that I don't know where you're coming from. Your last post helped. I gather you do not believe in the Bible. Why would you interpret the Bible if you don't believe it? Why does it matter what Jesus said or what he meant, if he was nobody special, much less the Son of God?

Jesus said "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery in his heart.". Adultery is a sin. Lusting for adultery is a sin. I would say that lusting in this context is more than looking and noticing that someone is sexually attractive. It's more than an instinctive reaction to desire sex at the physical level. This lust which is equal to adultery means perhaps that one wants to commit adultery. Perhaps he or she is held back only for fear of getting caught or getting into trouble. He is not restrained out of love or respect for self, God, or spouse. In this case, he has "committed adultery in his heart."

When you say there is only one sin, I'm not sure what you mean. Of course we have Jesus telling us to love the Lord God with all of our hearts and to love our fellow man as ourselves. On this hang all the law and the prophets. I would argue that if one does this, he will not steal, commit adultery, etc. Nevertheless those remain sins.

 

[Nada]

Well, there is nothing here that takes me by surprise. The symbolism, the idolatry of it all. What you have failed to recognize is that fornication is prostitution. What adultery represents is much what fornication represents and both are really about idolatry. From Judaism to Christianity, the meaning of "sexual immorality" is prostitution. Why does Christianity change that meaning? Why do you ignore the meaning? You are skirting what is obvious. But why?

When it speaks of sexual immorality,like in 1 Corinthians 5:1,it is not speaking of people selling their bodies for money.It speaks of sexual immorality,impure sex,uncleanness.

5 Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife.

It is obviously speaking of a man taking up with his fathers wife.This is considered
sexually immoral.It has nothing to do with one selling their body for sex to anyone.


1 . It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

 

[Nada]

Well, there is nothing here that takes me by surprise. The symbolism, the idolatry of it all. What you have failed to recognize is that fornication is prostitution. What adultery represents is much what fornication represents and both are really about idolatry. From Judaism to Christianity, the meaning of "sexual immorality" is prostitution. Why does Christianity change that meaning? Why do you ignore the meaning? You are skirting what is obvious. But why?

Anything considered bad sexually to God is deemed sexually immoral.Whether it be,bestiality,adultery,fornication,homosexuality,literal prostitution for money or merely prostituting in the sense of whoring around,it is all sexually immoral behavior.
ALL OF THIS IS SEXUAL IMMORALITY.



WHAT IS SEXUAL IMMORALITY?

7 As used in the Bible, “sexual immorality” (Greek, por·nei′a) applies to illicit sexualrelations outside of Scriptural marriage. It includes adultery, prostitution, and sex relations between unmarried individuals, as well as oral and anal sex and the sexualmanipulation of the genitals of an individual to whom one is not married. It also includes such acts between individuals of the same sex as well as bestiality.*


“Flee From Sexual Immorality!” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[Nada]

• 1 Corinthians 6:9
  9 Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled.Those who are sexually immoral,idolaters, adulterers,men who submit to homosexual acts,men who practice homosexuality,
  • 
    
  • 
    
  • Revelation 22:15
    15 Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying.’

 

[Dr. Strange]

Anything considered bad sexually to God is deemed sexually immoral.Whether it be,bestiality,adultery,fornication,homosexuality,literal prostitution for money or merely prostituting in the sense of whoring around,it is all sexually immoral behavior.
ALL OF THIS IS SEXUAL IMMORALITY.



WHAT IS SEXUAL IMMORALITY?

7 As used in the Bible, “sexual immorality” (Greek, por·nei′a) applies to illicit sexualrelations outside of Scriptural marriage. It includes adultery, prostitution, and sex relations between unmarried individuals, as well as oral and anal sex and the sexualmanipulation of the genitals of an individual to whom one is not married. It also includes such acts between individuals of the same sex as well as bestiality.*


“Flee From Sexual Immorality!” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

You used biblical passages to define sexual immorality and none say what you just said above:

"7 As used in the Bible, “sexual immorality” (Greek, por·nei′a) applies to illicit sexualrelations outside of Scriptural marriage. It includes adultery, prostitution, and sex relations between unmarried individuals, as well as oral and anal sex and the sexualmanipulation of the genitals of an individual to whom one is not married. It also includes such acts between individuals of the same sex as well as bestiality.*"

The biblical passages we have been discussing in regards to the biblical definition of "sexual immorality" are all speaking about prostitution. Within those passages idolatry, adultery, etc., none of which equates to a definition of "sexual immorality." You, nor any Christian denomination, not the Church can categorically interpet "sexual immorality" to mean anything but prostitution, unless done so by doctrine, teaching of their brand of Christianity. 1 Timothy 1: 10 can and does address pedophilia. When 1: 10 speaks of "kidnapers" the passage is speaking about boys kidnapped and forced into temple prostitution. 1:10 does not infer homosexuality. If you accept the word "sodomites" you must define the word using Ezekiel 16: 49. I know of no other passage in the OT nor the NT that defines sodomy. 16: 49 explicitly defines the sin of Sodom and it does not include and definition of homosexuality. How then does Christianity define sodomy as homosexuality? The NT is defined by the OT.

Is it not important that Christianity follows the Bible correctly?

 

[Nada]

You used biblical passages to define sexual immorality and none say what you just said above:

"7 As used in the Bible, “sexual immorality” (Greek, por·nei′a) applies to illicit sexualrelations outside of Scriptural marriage. It includes adultery, prostitution, and sex relations between unmarried individuals, as well as oral and anal sex and the sexualmanipulation of the genitals of an individual to whom one is not married. It also includes such acts between individuals of the same sex as well as bestiality.*"

The biblical passages we have been discussing in regards to the biblical definition of "sexual immorality" are all speaking about prostitution. Within those passages idolatry, adultery, etc., none of which equates to a definition of "sexual immorality." You, nor any Christian denomination, not the Church can categorically interpet "sexual immorality" to mean anything but prostitution, unless done so by doctrine, teaching of their brand of Christianity. 1 Timothy 1: 10 can and does address pedophilia. When 1: 10 speaks of "kidnapers" the passage is speaking about boys kidnapped and forced into temple prostitution. 1:10 does not infer homosexuality. If you accept the word "sodomites" you must define the word using Ezekiel 16: 49. I know of no other passage in the OT nor the NT that defines sodomy. 16: 49 explicitly defines the sin of Sodom and it does not include and definition of homosexuality. How then does Christianity define sodomy as homosexuality? The NT is defined by the OT.

Is it not important that Christianity follows the Bible correctly?

Ok....... It seems you do not want to admit you are incorrect.If you do not think adultery and prostitution are sexually immoral, well then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Dr. Strange]

• 1 Corinthians 6:9
  9 Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled.Those who are sexually immoral,idolaters, adulterers,men who submit to homosexual acts,men who practice homosexuality,
  • 
    
  • 
    
  • Revelation 22:15
    15 Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying.’

Great quote with Revelation 22: 15. As for 1 Corinthians 6:9, where ever that passage comes from, the version is a misrepresentation of what the passage is saying. I've already addressed what the passage says and it is not about homosexuality. Just because some version or Christian denomination decides that God speaks about homosexuality does not make it true. Here then is the misleading, errors of Christianity, false teachers making up their own gods.

Revelation 22:15;
sexually immoral = prostitution
adulterers = taking another man's wife (stealing, doing harm, abusing a man's property) or, a woman seducing other men
idolaters = worshiping false gods
lying = deceivers

1 Corinthians 6: 9;
Your quote "men who submit to homosexual acts,men who practice homosexuality" misrepresents the true meaning of 6: 9.

pornoi
pornoi
G4205
n_ Nom Pl m
paramours [adulterers;
paramour
[par-uh-moo r]

• Examples
• Word Origin

noun
1.
an illicit lover, especially of a married person.] Paramour | Define Paramour at Dictionary.com


eidwlolatrai
eidOlolatrai
G1496
n_ Nom Pl m
idolaters [worshiping other gods]

moicoi
moichoi
G3432
n_ Nom Pl m
ADULTERers

malakoi
malakoi
G3120
a_ Nom Pl m
SOFT-ones
catamites [
“* [6:9] The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world."
scripture

arsenokoitai
arsenokoitai
G733
n_ Nom Pl m
sodomites [Ezekiel 16: 49]

 

[Dr. Strange]

Ok....... It seems you do not want to admit you are incorrect.If you do not think adultery and prostitution are sexually immoral, well then I don't know what to tell you.

I presented what the Bible says not what some Christian church says. There is a difference. Your belief may believe that adultery and prostitution are sexual immoral but the Bible does not define, does not place adultery as sexually immoral. The Greek does not define adultery as sexually immoral. You have failed to show that the Bible does define adultery as sexually immoral. Sexually immoral has its own meaning and it is not yours.

I welcome anyone to show me differently what I see the Bible saying. Please show me that the Greek that proves sexually immorality is all the above.

I've found Christian truth goes against Biblical truth.

 

[Nada]

1 Timothy 1: 10 can and does address pedophilia. When 1: 10 speaks of "kidnapers" the passage is speaking about boys kidnapped and forced into temple prostitution. 1:10 does not infer homosexuality.

Is it not important that Christianity follows the Bible correctly?

Kidnappers in the holy scriptures means enslavers or men stealers.

#0405 G0435 and G4228; TDNT - n/a; n m

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) a slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer
1a) of one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery
1b) of one who steals the slaves of others and sells them

This passage never mentions selling kids for the purpose of temple prostitution.


13 The word “ransom” is often used when there is a kidnapping. After a kidnapper captures a person, he may say he will return the person if a certain amount of money is paid as a ransom. So a ransom is something that brings the deliverance of a person held captive. It is something that is paid so that he does not lose his life. Jesus’ perfect human life was given to obtain mankind’s release from bondage to sin and death. (1 Peter 1:18, 19; Ephesians 1:7) Why was such a release needed?

WOL


23 One’s person was considered inviolable. Kidnapping was a capital crime. The kidnapper in whose hand the person was found or who had sold the kidnapped one into slavery was to be put to death without fail.—Exodus 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7.

Exodus 21:16 “If anyone kidnaps a man and sells him or is caught holding him, he must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 24:7 “If someone is found to have kidnapped one of his Israelite brothers and he has mistreated him and sold him, the kidnapper must die. You should remove what is bad from your midst.

WOL

 

[Nada]

I presented what the Bible says not what some Christian church says. There is a difference. Your belief may believe that adultery and prostitution are sexual immoral but the Bible does not define, does not place adultery as sexually immoral. The Greek does not define adultery as sexually immoral. You have failed to show that the Bible does define adultery as sexually immoral. Sexually immoral has its own meaning and it is not yours.

I welcome anyone to show me differently what I see the Bible saying. Please show me that the Greek that proves sexually immorality is all the above.

I've found Christian truth goes against Biblical truth.

I did show you what the holy scriptures ays.In Hebrew and Greek.If you do not believe that Adultery is not sexually immoral then we have nothing more to talk about.I have not failed anything.You are not able to see.

 

[Nada]

Jesus also pointed out that if a divorce was obtained by either husband or wife, except on the ground of fornication (Gr., por·nei′a), the remarriage of either one would constitute adultery. Even a single man who took such a divorced woman as his wife would be guilty of adultery.—Mt 5:32; 19:9; Mr 10:11, 12; Lu 16:18; Ro 7:2, 3.

Adultery is “actually sin against God.” (Ge 39:9) Jehovah will judge those guilty of adultery, and none who persist in such a course “will inherit God’s kingdom.” (Mal 3:5; 1Co 6:9, 10; Heb 13:4) How true the proverb: “Anyone committing adultery with a woman is in want of heart; he that does it is bringing his own soul to ruin.”—Pr 6:32-35.

How does this not constitute sexual immorality.Are you kidding me?


Adultery — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[Straw Dog]

I believe that empathy, compassion, and practical reason are better guides for skillful sexual activity than any single book on the subject.

 

[Nada]

I believe that empathy, compassion, and practical reason are better guides for skillful sexual activity than any single book on the subject.

What you think and what the holy scriptures says are two entirely different things.

 

[Dr. Strange]

The problem I have with engaging with you on this subject, is that I don't know where you're coming from. Your last post helped. I gather you do not believe in the Bible. Why would you interpret the Bible if you don't believe it? Why does it matter what Jesus said or what he meant, if he was nobody special, much less the Son of God?

Jesus said "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery in his heart.". Adultery is a sin. Lusting for adultery is a sin. I would say that lusting in this context is more than looking and noticing that someone is sexually attractive. It's more than an instinctive reaction to desire sex at the physical level. This lust which is equal to adultery means perhaps that one wants to commit adultery. Perhaps he or she is held back only for fear of getting caught or getting into trouble. He is not restrained out of love or respect for self, God, or spouse. In this case, he has "committed adultery in his heart."

When you say there is only one sin, I'm not sure what you mean. Of course we have Jesus telling us to love the Lord God with all of our hearts and to love our fellow man as ourselves. On this hang all the law and the prophets. I would argue that if one does this, he will not steal, commit adultery, etc. Nevertheless those remain sins.

My studies have taken me to question my Catholicism and what I've learned from Protestantism or, Christian history. My understanding goes far beyond any denomination or the Church's teaching.

It is not that I don't believe the what the Bible says it is that I don't believe what Christianity says. This does not mean that I believe in God either. I'm at the point in my belief system that says I cannot even have faith that there is a God. But that faith has become challenged by what I believe. And faith, is not belief. So, I am caught between belief and faith. This goes against everything that I understand about belief and faith. It contradicts what I have come to believe.

Jesus to me is Jesus as the Christ (Tillich), not Jesus the Christ (Christianity). I can defend this statement because I've spent the last 40 years seeking truth. That truth is built upon the Bible, Church history and theology. Everything I've learned is pointing in a direction that confuses me greatly, but there is no mistake in the facts. Whether it is Creation or the Big Bang, this world was created from nothing. Science tells us this and hypothesizes the Big Bang from nothing. Thomas Aquinas speaks of Cause and Effect. The Bible, et al. Paul Tillich and Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, philosophy, science and theology.
The Cosmic Plenum: Tillich: Urgrund and Urbild

When I say everything points me in this direction I am saying to you that beginning with Genesis 1: 27, the image of God is understood as God's Spirit and Jesus brings this message back, the message that the OT failed to impart. This makes Jesus a prophet. Christianity makes Jesus divine. You see, it is all man's perceptions. I often say that nobody can know God but what I should say is nobody can comprehend God. All is man's perception, even comprehending God as Spirit.

This comprehension is finite whereas God is infinite. Right?

Your last point mentions the "Son of God." You need to look up what that phrase means. If you choose not to, I understand. Don't challenge your belief but there is a NT passage that you should pay attention to: Matthew 15: 14.

 

[Straw Dog]

What you think and what the holy scriptures says are two entirely different things.

How do you know what I think?

Maybe I agree that prostitution and adultery are harmful, but I also understand that it's not always so black and white in real life situations. I won't go around condeming prostitutes and adulterers to hell because I'm more interested in what causes it on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Nada]

How do you know what I think?

Maybe I agree that prostitution and adultery are harmful, but I also understand that it's not always so black and white in real life situations. I won't go around condeming prostitutes and adulterers to hell because I'm more interested in what causes it on a case-by-case basis.

Oh I'm so sorry straw dog.Lol...I thoughtI was responding to the person I was in discussion with earlier.My mistake.

Ps.Nobody condemned anyone to hell.Peace....

 

[Straw Dog]

Oh I'm so sorry straw dog.Lol...I thoughtI was responding to the person I was in discussion with earlier.My mistake.

Ps.Nobody condemned anyone to hell.Peace....

I understand how difficult it can be responding to different people in a heated debate. I'll leave you two at it. I have some experiences out in the world I'd like to have tonight. Peace.