what is left hand path

[1137]

A Luciferian for example seeks to separate from the objective universe and attain self-deification. That is western left-hand path practice.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Everyone disagreeing about it might be a pretty good sign that people are thinking for themselves.

Very true. I'm just wary of attempts to generalize everyone together like that.

 

[crossfire]

Very true. I'm just wary of attempts to generalize everyone together like that.

Hence the words "might be." Isn't uncertainty and the ungraspable lovely?

 

[Yadon]

Can't we just all agree that we like to be edgy and wear pentagrams and be done with it?

The majority of people drawn to paths that call themselves "Left Hand Path" all have this in common and that's about it (in terms of what they actually do or believe). I hear too much lip service to individualization and individuality without real substance. As a disclaimer this accusation isn't leveled against any particular person or group, least of all on this forum, but rather a generalization of my experience with people whom label themselves as such as one of the main labels of their spiritual identity.

Really, the fact that we are still discussing a topic like this, and that there are countless topics in this DR often with mostly the same users commenting with the same thoughts, shows that there is at least some lack of understanding/learning beyond what should be expected among the apparent knowledge and commitment of the participants in regards to each other and the concept(s) of the Left Hand Path itself.

While this as a regular discussion is educational to a point, I kind of feel like not all of us are listening to each other, which greatly irks me since there is a lot to learn from the discussion on all sides if we would be more engaging towards the other posters and open to critically analyzing the comments they respond with (as well as thinking critically about our own views and own statements).

edit: sorry if the second paragraph was worded strangely, I'm kind of in a hurry since I'm supposed to be working atm >.>

 

[1137]

Can't we just all agree that we like to be edgy and wear pentagrams and be done with it?

The majority of people drawn to paths that call themselves "Left Hand Path" all have this in common and that's about it (in terms of what they actually do or believe). I hear too much lip service to individualization and individuality without real substance. As a disclaimer this accusation isn't leveled against any particular person or group, least of all on this forum, but rather a generalization of my experience with people whom label themselves as such as one of the main labels of their spiritual identity.

Really, the fact that we are still discussing a topic like this, and that there are countless topics in this DR often with mostly the same users commenting with the same thoughts, shows that there is at least some lack of understanding/learning beyond what should be expected among the apparent knowledge and commitment of the participants in regards to each other and the concept(s) of the Left Hand Path itself.

While this as a regular discussion is educational to a point, I kind of feel like not all of us are listening to each other, which greatly irks me since there is a lot to learn from the discussion on all sides if we would be more engaging towards the other posters and open to critically analyzing the comments they respond with (as well as thinking critically about our own views and own statements).

edit: sorry if the second paragraph was worded strangely, I'm kind of in a hurry since I'm supposed to be working atm >.>

I agree, this topic pops up all the time. I can't speak for all but I'd guess the vast majority use the title for the same reasons you wear pentagrams. They may have deep meaning to you now, but the semi-blank slate and cultural bias towards certain symbols certainly came into play.

What is the "LHP"? It's a mostly meaningless, far too subjective title that'll rile up the five non-LHP people who know what it's supposed to imply. And there's nothing wrong with that

 

[EtuMalku]

Perhaps if you wish to change the definition. However, I am saying that following one's one Will, will ultimately be the will of the Universe by virtue of them being a subset of the Universe and by being subject to it's laws. Hence for one to fall into their orbit (will) is to simply become in compliance with the laws of the Cosmos. No need to dissolve into it, you just stop suppressing your most transcendent desires, of which more immediate instincts tend to (but not always and not for everyone) get in the way of.

I'm not changing the definition, that 'is' the definition. The Universe has no Will, it is a lump of unfolding memetic processes that oppose our very physical being. The RHP's have personified this in a myriad of ways.

For those that these instincts get in the way of, we have the Right Hand Path, for those whom they do not and they can be used as tools to reach that transcendent desire that we all have, there is the Left Hand Path. The only real difference is perspective and practice. At the end of the day for all the LHP's preaching about preserving the ego, it fails pretty hard to realize that the ego relies on consciousness, which relies on the physical brain.

I can agree with this idea of transcendence, but an individuated ego is paramount to the LHP. There is something more than the physical brain's functions at work.

When we die all of that ego and consciousness dies too. So any ego you have is simply temporary. It is much better to live life enjoying it than obsessed with surviving death since all that will be left at best of you is an echo in the memory or stories of others. At least until they die or all of humanity dies and the Universe goes on like you never existed. Apparently that is too humbling for some people who think that they mean anything in the grand scheme of the Cosmos.

And you know this . . . how?

I mean, am I remembering what Crowley said wrong? The implication seems pretty strong that no matter what you do your will will always be subject to the will of the Universe, even when your fulfilling your own will. You can't separate yourself from the natural world.

As I stated, Crowley and Thelema seek to absolve and are still considered RHP in the end.

And so again, at the end of the day it just all becomes semantics. We all live, laugh and die. It's just a matter of perspective and what we do with our lives that differ. You could divide this a million different ways, Christian, Buddhist, pencil pusher, politician, drinker, gamer, or in this case LHP and RHP. But it's just another duality at the end of the day. And like all divisions and labels it's a completely arbitrary man made line.

You can believe what you need to.

Speak for yourself.

Actually, I speak for the Ordo Luciferi and many of the non-theistic Luciferian Orders. We have all discussed this very same topic for years and have have to definitive conclusions. How have you come to your conclusion regarding the LHP?

The "Right-Hand Path" elevates spirituality, the strict observance of moral codes, and the worship of deities. The intent is to attain proximity to divinity, or integration with divinity. Conversely, the "Left-Hand Path" belief systems value the advancement and preservation of the self, as well as the pursuit of terrestrial goals. These goals are often achieved either by seeking the guidance of one or more archetypes via ritualistic practices, or more commonly, via non-theistic uses of instincts and logic.
Followers of Left-Hand Path seek to become divinities in their own right or behold themselves as such already (autotheism/apotheosis).

Simply put the Right-Hand Path teaches divinity through association, while the Left-Hand Path teaches divinity through emulation.

- from Herald of the Dawn texts
​

 

[1137]

By being a Luciferian and not having delusions of self deification. For one, deities do not exist, so why would I seek to not exist? Second, I have no need to be super superior or deific, I just want to live a good life and bring ease and light where I can. I care about others as much as myself - with obvious exceptions - and seek to enlighten as well as be enlightened. I like to see Luciferianism as a more evolved subpath of the LHP, with a balanced ego and an eye on the greater good as well as the personal good.

And a Luciferian order sounds like a terrible idea. Just a different shape of LHP cookie cutter.

 

[1137]

Also, don't quote religious texts at me please, this is the LHP DIR.

 

[EtuMalku]

By being a Luciferian and not having delusions of self deification. For one, deities do not exist, so why would I seek to not exist?

Are you sure you are clear as to what I am talking about? It doesn't sound it.

Second, I have no need to be super superior or deific

No one is equating superiority in self-deification . . . there is no one to be superior towards . . . now, I almost certain you are not following what I'm saying.

I just want to live a good life and bring ease and light where I can. I care about others as much as myself - with obvious exceptions - and seek to enlighten as well as be enlightened. I like to see Luciferianism as a more evolved subpath of the LHP, with a balanced ego and an eye on the greater good as well as the personal good.

Well, being that Luciferianism is many things to many people, this is a noble and Promethæn goal, I wish you well on it.

And a Luciferian order sounds like a terrible idea. Just a different shape of LHP cookie cutter.

It seems like a good idea to a lot other people, it certainly isn't a 'terrible' idea. Tell me . . . how do you bring 'ease and light' to others? An institution is an excellent place to reach many, hence why there are institutions.

Also, don't quote religious texts at me please, this is the LHP DIR.

What religious texts would that be?

 

[1137]

Ah **** it I'm never letting myself into these discussions again. Do as you wish.

 

[EtuMalku]

You wouldn't make a very good Prometheus . . . :flirt:

 

[1137]

You wouldn't make a very good Prometheus . . . :flirt:

Nah, this DIR has simply proved to be the wrong setting.

 

[EtuMalku]

Nah, this DIR has simply proved to be the wrong setting.

I'm not understanding you, there is nothing I posted that is not LHP DIR . . . besides, since none of you can agree on the definition of LHP, how can something 'not' be DIR here?

 

[1137]

I'm not understanding you, there is nothing I posted that is not LHP DIR . . . besides, since none of you can agree on the definition of LHP, how can something 'not' be DIR here?

Exactly. It's the wrong setting based on my understanding of the silly term "left hand path".

 

[EtuMalku]

Exactly. It's the wrong setting based on my understanding of the silly term "left hand path".

Alright, there's no need for us to get weird with one another, I apologize if I've been unruly.

The differences and defining aspects of the western Right & Left Hand Paths should be possible to reduce down to base elements otherwise they are truly BS.

My practices aside, I would say that in simple, layman terms;
The western right hand path seeks to go with the flow of everything and to be a part of everything.
The western left hand path seeks to go against this flow, thus standing out from everything and becoming isolate and unique.

What say you?

 

[1137]

Alright, there's no need for us to get weird with one another, I apologize if I've been unruly.

The differences and defining aspects of the western Right & Left Hand Paths should be possible to reduce down to base elements otherwise they are truly BS.

My practices aside, I would say that in simple, layman terms;
The western right hand path seeks to go with the flow of everything and to be a part of everything.
The western left hand path seeks to go against this flow, thus standing out from everything and becoming isolate and unique.

What say you?

I say you told me you're part of an order that's tried to come to a concensus of a generalized and confining goal for Luciferianism that is very subjective and not generally applicable. Orders require a certain amount of going with the flow.

 

[EtuMalku]

I say you told me you're part of an order that's tried to come to a concensus of a generalized and confining goal for Luciferianism that is very subjective and not generally applicable. Orders require a certain amount of going with the flow.

Well, when I mentioned 'Order' or however I put it, I was referring to several Luciferian organizations that stick together and work towards a same goal but from slightly different directions. Although an organization requires a certain amount of protocol in order to succeed, I assure you that anything I am personally involved with stresses the very foundations and attributes of the LHP that I have stated numerously.

 

[Mortose]

Well, when I mentioned 'Order' or however I put it, I was referring to several Luciferian organizations that stick together and work towards a same goal but from slightly different directions. Although an organization requires a certain amount of protocol in order to succeed, I assure you that anything I am personally involved with stresses the very foundations and attributes of the LHP that I have stated numerously.

... and this is among the reasons I do not call myself or my path "LHP". The constant fighting over definition and idiotic hair splitting.

 

[Yadon]

I agree, this topic pops up all the time. I can't speak for all but I'd guess the vast majority use the title for the same reasons you wear pentagrams. They may have deep meaning to you now, but the semi-blank slate and cultural bias towards certain symbols certainly came into play.

What is the "LHP"? It's a mostly meaningless, far too subjective title that'll rile up the five non-LHP people who know what it's supposed to imply. And there's nothing wrong with that

Well ya, if you want to go ut and actually find those 5 people. Or Wiccans, jst tell a wiccan and see their eyes get wide, well okay, some Wiccans. Most I met are kinda "eh" about it.

You wouldn't make a very good Prometheus . . . :flirt:

A Prometheus can't grant people fire if they won't take it.

 

[Yadon]

I'm not changing the definition, that 'is' the definition. The Universe has no Will, it is a lump of unfolding memetic processes that oppose our very physical being. The RHP's have personified this in a myriad of ways.

Your thinking way too literally. I was obviously referring to the "will" of the Universe as being the laws of nature, and using a determinist viewpoint to explain that.

I can agree with this idea of transcendence, but an individuated ego is paramount to the LHP. There is something more than the physical brain's functions at work.

The moment you can demonstrate that with repeatable results in a Scientific setting I will agree, but until then there is no evidence for your claim, and given what we do know, it's rather unlikely that your statements are true.

And you know this . . . how?

I know at least one of those points explicitly, the other is just extremely likely again, based on the severe lack of scientific evidence and a combination of evidence otherwise. The point I know implicatively to be likely is the one about death.

The one I know for sure, is based on centuries of work in Astronomy, from Copernicus to Galileo to Hubble to Hawking. Carl Sagan summed it up best:

From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of any particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known, so far, to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment, the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known

As I stated, Crowley and Thelema seek to absolve and are still considered RHP in the end.

LHP and RHP isn't about end intent, however to fully individualize yourself you still have to come in harmony with how nature works. That in the sense I've been talking the entire time is the greatest absolution other than death itself.

You can believe what you need to.

You would have to believe that words have some kind of objective meaning, say that God wrote the English language, while also saying that stereotypes and the boxes that we call "labels" and "concepts" are built into the Universe too for you to disagree with me (or perhaps some form of pure idealism). Everyone interprets what they perceive differently, but underneath all of that is a reality that by consensus we all know has a very strong tendency to exist independent of our knowledge of it. This reality doesn't have the concept of LHP and RHP because humans invented the idea. The Universe doesn't care, it just does it's own thing.

Though perhaps this point, and all points were lost on you because you failed to either grasp, or accept/consider my first premise on which all of this was based (I'm not sure which). Which was that to do your will (and follow your truest nature) you had to do the Universe's will (and follow the Universe's nature, since doing so is kind of impossible by definition). In this sense, as I've said before, either way you can't do one or the other, only both at the same time. Hence LHP and RHP is just a matter of perspective.

The end result shouldn't be heaven, an afterlife godhood ect. The end result should be a damn good life here and now, one lived with meaning, purpose and happiness. You can only do that when you follow your truest nature and become part of nature and not try to fight it (which is pointless and doomed to always fail). This last paragraph is more a personal opinion, but I base it partially off the work of Buddha as well as some concepts of mysticism in general. You can't be happy if your always worrying and not in the moment.

Actually, I speak for the Ordo Luciferi and many of the non-theistic Luciferian Orders. We have all discussed this very same topic for years and have have to definitive conclusions. How have you come to your conclusion regarding the LHP?

Even though you didn't respond to me, to be frank, who cares what some other organization said? There is probably about one occult organization per every 5 occultists, and they tend to not be as important or as insightful as all of them think, even the major ones with media attention.