What is God's highest priority?

[Trailblazer]

I'm not sure you have yet spoken of anything correctly about what you perceive scripture or true Christianity to be! Yet I and others are supposed to somehow believe you and your Baha u llah are the enlightened ones. If what you were saying was even remotely true, you would be building on the truths of God, not contradicting them.

I have not contradicted anything that is in the Bible, I gave just interpreted it correctly.

Misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. I believe that Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning, and that is understandable because it was prophesied in Daniel 12 that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it.

The reason I know what the Bible really means is because Baha'ullah came and unsealed the Book, as Daniel prophesied.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Note that Dan 12:13 says "at the end of the days.” This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end of an age, when Christ returns.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased. It also means that scientific and all other kinds of knowledge will be increased.

Your distorted version of Jesus Christ proves you don't really know him, nor believe in him. You don't get to pick the truths that sound good to you and throw away other scriptures that don't fit your religion!

No, that is what you do, pick the truths that sound good to you and throw away other scriptures that don't fit your Christian doctrines.

We who believe in Jesus CHrist and are born again, take all of his Word as Truth, accept him as Lord and Savior, not for a time but forever.

And that is your mistake, to believe that the Dispensation of Jesus Christ was ever meant to last forever, making it impossible for any other religions to come after Christianity.

Your messiah (Christ) is in fact spoken of in Scripture and again it is so clear that I cannot possibly see where you can't see this other than the fact that this too is prophesied in scripture.

Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

No, those verses do not refer to Baha'u'llah, they refer to the many false prophets that Jesus knew would come claiming to be Christ.

Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Christ, He came with a new name, just as the Bible says would happen, yet more verses that Christians choose to ignore.

The Bible says Christ (not Jesus) would return with a new name, so we know he would not be called Jesus.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The new name means that the return of Christ would be another person. It would not be Jesus Christ.
If Jesus returned with a new name how would you know it was Jesus? You would not know, and that is why you do not know that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, since he has a new name. Oh, the irony!

Here you finally have revealed the truth of your beliefs! You reject the Word of God, you reject the only hope for your salvation, to deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ is to reject the only means of salvation for mankind!

The resurrection of Jesus Christ has NOTHING to do with salvation! You don't even know your own Bible, all you know is what has been fed to you by the Church. Salvation was conferred by the Cross Sacrifice, not by the resurrection that never ever happened.

You are like the man has no True belief in anything, so to make sure you somehow are not wrong with this belief or that belief, you try to blend them all together into one big religious soup bowl and call it Baha!

I have true belief in Baha'u'llah and I have true belief in Jesus, the real Jesus, not the false Jesus of Paul.

Nothing is blended in with the Baha'i Faith, it is a religion that is separate from the other religions, the last in the series of true religions.
There will be more religions revealed in the future since the Tide of God's Mercy never ceases from flowing to humanity.

I will give it again because you don't seem to get it

I Corinthians 15:13-19
13. If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

You do not understand what those verses mean so I'll give it another try.

Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

You are fulfilling prophecy!
2 Peter 3:3-4
Most importantly, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4“Where is the promise of His coming?”

You are the one who is fulfilling that prophecy since you scoff at the return of Christ, who was Baha'u'llah.
Instead of recognizing Christ in His new attire with His new name, you follow your own desires for Jesus to return.

 

[Trailblazer]

You mean "truer" words were never spoken.

Thanks, I will go and edit my post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes that is exactly what will happen, here we are again, you do not understand the true Power of God and what he is planning to do. As for change!! that will happen in the Twinkling of an eye change as spoken in I Corinthians which you have given, and misquoted concerning your false beliefs! But this is the very thing that will happen, WE WHO BELIEVE will in the twinkling of an eye, BE CHANGED (FULLY CHANGED).
I Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So you interpret those verses literally even though they say something that is logically impossible. So much for Paul's falsehoods.

Why would WE WHO BELIEVE need to be changed? We already believe.
Do you ever even bother to think about what verses mean?

Right now those who accept the free gift of salvation thru Jesus Christ, and confess him as LORD, will be the only ones that when the Last trumpet sounds, tand he Coming of our Lord in the Clouds, will be transformed...........in the Twinkling of an eye!!

I Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

Caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? Oh dear God! ~~ More falsities from Paul. Will they ever end?
I Thessalonians 4 is the worst of the worst. At least Paul got some things right in 1st Corinthians 15, for all the good it did for Christians.

You follow Paul, NOT Jesus. That's really sad.

And at that time concerning the earth, according to Peter, this is said:

II Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

That day of the Lord sure did come like a thief. Baha'u'llah came and went like a thief in the night and almost everyone missed Him.
Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ, as delineated in the following book:

William Sears, Thief in the Night

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

"the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare"

Nothing is going to be destroyed.
That verse was never intended to be interpreted literally. It is symbolic for all the tumult that took place as the result of the Coming of Baha'u'llah, as you would know if you ever read any Baha'i history.

The new heaven and earth where righteousness dwells is in the process of being built right now, would you but know it.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.

Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.

Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth. Say: Through it the poor have been enriched, the learned enlightened, and the seekers enabled to ascend unto the presence of God. Beware, lest ye make it a cause of dissension amongst you. Be ye as firmly settled as the immovable mountain in the Cause of your Lord, the Mighty, the Loving.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 136-137

 

[Truthseeker]

Caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? Oh dear God! ~~ More falsities from Paul. Will they ever end?
I Thessalonians 4 is the worst of the worst. At least Paul got some things right in 1st Corinthians 15, for all the good it did for Christians.

You follow Paul, NOT Jesus. That's really sad.

Some Baha'i s interpret that scripture in symbolic terms. We don't know, though, if Paul meant it that way because no authoritative Baha'i source interpreted that. It's true though that many people follow Paul, not Jesus, for whom there is no good reason to suppose he is infallible in everything. Better to heed the words of Jesus, though we can't be sure what exactly He said. It's close enough, though.

 

[Saved by grace 2]

So you interpret those verses literally even though they say something that is logically impossible. So much for Paul's falsehoods.

Goodness my Friend, This is elementary Christian belief and Biblical Truth. We are born again when we Repent and First truly put our Faith in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of Sins, God honors our Faith, AND HE DECLARES US RIGHTEOUS! But we still live in This world and still wrestle with the sinful nature that we are born with. Although we have received the Holy Spirit as a deposit (Down payment) the first fruits and BEGINNING of our being eternally and Fully Transformed, we will NOT be Fully Transformed until the Day Jesus Christ Changes us in the Twinkling of an eye WHEN HE Returns.
I get that you don't understand this, but you trying to tell us who Believe in ALL of what The Bible says know this quite easily, that you know better. We know whom we have believed in and are fully persuaded of these truths, and noone, not an angel, nor any man, can sway us!

As for this being Illogical, We believe in a GOD who says nothing is impossible! This is the foundation for TRUE FAITH. Not needing to know exactly how God will do what he says he will do, but a simple Child like Faith that takes God for his WORD.

From Able to Noah, to Abraham etc. THOSE, (who despite the rejection of man, the mockings of those who can't see with their eyes,) CONTINUE to HOLD to the promises according to God's Word, those of Jesus Christ as taught in:
Romans 4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, for wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”

23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

VERSE 23 Says as Abraham was declared Righteous before God for taking him at his Word concerning the Promise of his ONLY Son, that would then bring forth the Promised SEED (JESUS CHRIST). Abraham was DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY BELIEVING.

BUT HE IS NOT ALONE!!

WE TOO (TODAY) Are given a PROMISE of the ONLY SON, to Believe GOD and take him at his WORD. The promise all the way back to Genesis 3:15, when God Cursed the Serpent that thru the woman's seed A Deliverer would come!
HE IS The Promised Messiah that Moses and all the (Biblical) Prophets spoke of, THE KING that King David was promised that one of his descendents would sit on his Throne Forever. This same Lord who is also prophesied to be the HIGH PREIST after the Order of Mechizedek.
For Jesus Christ is all these and so much more....And we who Believe in This Jesus, The only Yeshua promised according to scripture ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS!
Though we still struggle with sin in this Life, and are promised this will always be the case while LIVING IN THIS WORLD, until WE ARE FULLY CHANGED IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, upon his RETURN!
AND THEN, THIS WORLD WILL ALSO BE TRANSFORMED not over decades, or centuries, or millennia. But instantly!

YOU EVEN SAY God is Eternal, God is ALL POWERFUL, HOW CAN one claim that, AND TRULY SAY HE IS, but then claim God can't do what he says he will do. TO do this is TO INFACT actually reject that GOD is ALL POWERFUL. That he really can't do ALL THINGS!

Goodness I fail to understand how someone can with one breath can say nothing is impossible with God, I BELIEVE THAT! but then when confronted with the events all the way back to the beginning of creation or the raising up fo the Lord Jesus Christ in the body he was crucified in, then as matter of fact (in their belief, not God's WORD) Claim No God didn't do that, that is illogical and it didn't or couldn't happen that way!!

This is why even some say they believe God created life, but laugh and scoff at the WORD of God that says CLEARLY he did everything in 6 Days.

I can't explain how God did that, I am not required to KNOW that. What is required for us to TRULY BELIEVE GOD, is to take him for his WORD!
And yes this brings ridicule upon us who believe! As with our Fathers of Faith,.i.e. Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, The Prophets, and YES OUR LORD HIMSELF, who claimed to be GOD and was crucified for that.

For whatever Word that was given, whatever promise God had proclaimed required STANDING UPON THOSE PROMISES, no matter what anyone else said! AND IN DOING SO THEY WERE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS before their Creator!

 

[Saved by grace 2]

You follow Paul, NOT Jesus. That's really sad.

Paul was supernaturally commissioned by Jesus Christ! after first being a vehement persecutor of the Lord Jesus Christ and his Church!
Read in Acts 9;1-9 OF HIS CONVERSION to the True Faith

Then here is his tesimony before the Roman magistrates
Acts 22:
About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’

8 “‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked.

“ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. 9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

10 “‘What shall I do, Lord?’ I asked.

“ ‘Get up,’ the Lord said, ‘and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’ 11 My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.

12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.

14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’

19 “‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you. 20 And when the blood of your martyr[a] Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’

21 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ ”


SO When PAUL SAID in Galatians that if anyone rejects the Gospel he preached LET THEM be cursed.He meant everything he wrote! Except in the couple instances in I Corinthians 7:12. concerning marriage.

Again, you accusations are invalid, according to scriptures!............ and reveal that you follow another god!

 

[Trailblazer]

Goodness my Friend, This is elementary Christian belief and Biblical Truth. We are born again when we Repent and First truly put our Faith in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of Sins, God honors our Faith, AND HE DECLARES US RIGHTEOUS! But we still live in This world and still wrestle with the sinful nature that we are born with. Although we have received the Holy Spirit as a deposit (Down payment) the first fruits and BEGINNING of our being eternally and Fully Transformed, we will NOT be Fully Transformed until the Day Jesus Christ Changes us in the Twinkling of an eye WHEN HE Returns.

No, none of that is Biblical Truth, it is all false Christian dogma. There is no need for forgiveness from an original sin since there was no Adam and Eve and no original sin. There is no such thing as a down-payment since there is no more payment coming. Last but not least, nobody is going to be Fully Transformed on the Day Jesus Christ Returns and changes us, since Jesus Christ is never going to return to earth. That transformation has already taken place in those who recognized Baha'u'llah who was the return of Christ.

The second coming brought God's judgment to earth, and it brought resurrection and eternal life, but not in the same way you believe that.

“Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—

… so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.

The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.

In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220

“The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 220-222

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

I get that you don't understand this, but you trying to tell us who Believe in ALL of what The Bible says know this quite easily, that you know better. We know whom we have believed in and are fully persuaded of these truths, and noone, not an angel, nor any man, can sway us!

I already told you several posts ago that I am not trying to sway you. I only reply because it is my obligation as a Baha'i to post the truth.
You say that you believe in the Bible, but that does not matter, since you have misinterpreted the Bible.

Daniel Chapter 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. I believe that Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning, and that is understandable because it was prophesied in Daniel 12 that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it.

This chapter is about what will happen at the time of the end, when Christ returns.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

Unsealing the Book means we can now understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before by reading the Baha’i Writings, thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased.

As for this being Illogical, We believe in a GOD who says nothing is impossible! This is the foundation for TRUE FAITH. Not needing to know exactly how God will do what he says he will do, but a simple Child like Faith that takes God for his WORD.

As for being logical, just because God is all-powerful so God 'can do anything' that does not mean God will do everything that YOU believe God will do, or that God did what you believe that God did. God did not create the earth and everything on it in six days; that is not literal truth, only allegorical truth. So much of the Bible is allegorical, not literally true. Now that we live in the modern age of science we know that these things never happened. All Christians don't all believe that the Bible is all literally true, only fundamentalist Christians believe that.

HE IS The Promised Messiah that Moses and all the (Biblical) Prophets spoke of, THE KING that King David was promised that one of his descendents would sit on his Throne Forever. This same Lord who is also prophesied to be the HIGH PREIST after the Order of Mechizedek.
For Jesus Christ is all these and so much more....And we who Believe in This Jesus, The only Yeshua promised according to scripture ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS!

Jesus was a messiah, but Jesus was not and will never be the the Promised Messiah that Moses and all the (Biblical) Prophets spoke of.
Baha'ullah was that Messiah, the One who sits on the Throne of David, the Messiah of the latter days who came to reveal what will be necessary for humans to build the kingdom of God on earth.

Jesus reigns on a heavenly throne but He will never reign on an earthly throne, meaning Jesus will never rule on earth.

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

Baha'u'llah reigns on a earthly throne since He revealed the Most Great Law that pertains to life on earth.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

 

[Trailblazer]

Paul was supernaturally commissioned by Jesus Christ! after first being a vehement persecutor of the Lord Jesus Christ and his Church!
Read in Acts 9;1-9 OF HIS CONVERSION to the True Faith

Paul's conversion was not to the True Faith of Jesus. Paul changed Christianity so that thereafter it became Paul's version of who Jesus was.
That is what you and all Christians believe, except for a handful of Christians who stayed with the True Faith of Jesus.

"That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Paul, however, did not pass on the revealed doctrine reflected in the glass of the intellectual categories of his time, as is often asserted; he transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’ He it was who gave baptism a mysterious significance, ‘so as to connect his mission with the experience of initiates in Hellenic mystery cults’, (232) he turned the last supper into a sacramental union with the Lord of those celebrating it; (233) he was responsible for the sacramentalization of the Christian religion, and took the phrase ‘Son of God’--- in the Jewish religion merely a title for the Messiah --- to be an ontological reality. The idea of the Son of God, come down from heaven to earth, hitherto inconceivable to Jewish thought, (234) was taken from Paul from the ancient religious syncretism of Asia Minor, to fit in with the need at the time for a general savior. It is generally accepted by critical scholarship that the godparents were the triad from the cult of Isia (Isis, Osiris and Horus) and also Attis, Adonis and Hercules. Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ……..

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as ‘Ebionites.’ As Schoeps puts it, the heresy-hunters ‘accused the Ebionites of a lapse or relapse into Judaism, whereas they were really only the Conservatives who could not go along with the Pauline-cum-Hellenistic elaborations’. (238) Schonfield comes to the same conclusion: ‘This Christianity in its teaching about Jesus continued in the tradition it had directly inherited, and could justifiably regard Pauline and catholic Christianity as heretical. It was not, as its opponents alleged, Jewish Christianity which debased the person of Jesus, but the Church in general which was misled into deifying him.’ (239) ‘Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. This is even admitted by some Catholics: ‘Christianity today mostly means Paul.’ (245) And Wilhelm Nestle stated—as noted also by Sabet—‘Christianity is the religion founded by Paul who replaces the Gospel of Jesus by a gospel about Jesus.’ (246) So also Schonfield: ‘Paul produced an amalgamation of ideas which, however unintentionally, did give rise to a new religion.’ (247)……

Measured by the standard of Baha’u’llah revelation, the Pauline doctrine of Justification, the doctrine of Original Sin, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the sacramentalisation of the Christian religion, the whole Church plan of salvation — which not only contradicts the Jewish understanding of God (255) but was also strongly repudiated by the revelation of God which succeeded Christianity (256) — these are a deformation of Jesus’s teaching. Some critical theological scholars have confirmed that these deformations in Christianity started very early, in fact with Paul, and that the arch-apostle, without whom Marcion would not have been possible, was the arch-heretic in Christianity—as Tertullian very rightly saw. (257) Years ago, when I became acquainted with the founder of the Christian religion in the faith of the original community through H. J. Schoep’s Theologie und Geschichte des Judenchristentums, (258) the standard work on the subject, I was deeply impressed. Here Jesus was not the only-begotten Son of God come down from Heaven, crucified and resurrected, nor the unique Saviour, but the messenger of God to whom the Quran testifies and who is glorified by Baha’u’llah. (259)"

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

 

[Trailblazer]

Paul claimed that he received the True Gospel directly from Jesus Christ, which emcompasses every Letter Paul wrote. And there is not one sentence, word, or scripture that Paul wrote that contradicts what Jesus said. They ALL, only build on the Words of Truth that Jesus proclaimed!
Because you don't understand, this has no bearing on Paul's words being true!

You said: "And there is not one sentence, word, or scripture that Paul wrote that contradicts what Jesus said."
You have been duped.

​

PAUL vs. JESUS
A List of Contradictory and Incompatible Statements​

---

By Edgar Jones​

Preface

The following statements from Paul's letters are symptomatic of deep differences between the doctrines of Paul and Jesus -- much as a fever is symptomatic of an infection in the body. You can read a discussion of their differences in Paul: the Stranger, my book that exposes Paul as a liar and a false prophet who did not know Jesus. The most significant difference is in their salvation doctrines as derived from their interpretations of the crucifixion. In these fundamental areas, Paul's errors and false gospel are obvious to anyone who follows Jesus as teacher and listens carefully to Jesus' words. Very seldom does anyone in Christendom so listen to Jesus as to receive his Word of Truth, even though the gospels repeatedly quote his Word. The reason? The churchmen get to everyone first with false Pauline doctrine, which then stands between them and Jesus, blocking the Light. His words come through but not his message. My hope is that this list will motivate you to remove the blindfold and see the Good Shepherd as he is. Your eternal salvation depends on it! So, do not listen to me or anyone other than Jesus if you would receive eternal life. Here is the key, from his pure lips:

John.5
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

This list is surely not complete, for it is very easy to overlook Paul's contradictory and/or incompatible statements. Therefore, I offer it as a beginning and invite all who see omissions to bring them to my attention via email.

On January 21, 2006, Contradiction No. 10 that was placed in error was replaced by another of Paul's many contradictions, this on dying. A Christian who has critiqued this page and disputed every one of the listed contradictions took the time to compose a detailed refutation of each of the twenty-five on the list. You can find my response http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html. I am indebted to him for disclosing to us that the prior No. 10 was erroneous.

PAUL vs. JESUS: A List of Contradictory and Incompatible Statements

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

PAUL vs. JESUS: A List of Contradictory and Incompatible Statements

1. On the time of the coming of the Lord:

Paul says:

Rom.13
[12] the night is far gone, the day is at hand.

Jesus says:

Luke.21
[8] Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name,
saying, . . . `The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.

2. On the source of the Truth and the true gospel:

Paul says:

1Cor.2
[13] And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
Gal.1
[12] For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Jesus says:

John.17
[14] I have given them thy word;
[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

3. On the God of the dead:

Paul says:

Rom.14
[9] For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Jesus says:

Luke.20
[38] Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living;

4. On the sum of the commandments:

Paul says:

Rom.13
[9] The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus says:

Matt.22
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.

5. On whom God has mercy:

Paul says:

Rom.9
[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Jesus says:

Matt.5
[7] Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

6. On forgiveness of trespasses:

Paul says:

Eph.1
[7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace
Rom.4
[25] who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Jesus says:

Matt.6
[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

7. On being justified:

Paul says:

Rom.3
[24] they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
[28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Rom.5
[9] Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Jesus says:

Matt.12
[37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

8. On the cost of eternal life:

Paul says:

Rom.6
[23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus says:

Matt.19
[29] And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Luke.14
[28] For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?
[33] So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

9. On what is honorable among men:

Paul says:

2Cor.8

[21] for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord's sight but also in the sight of men.
Rom.12
[17] Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all men.
Rom.14
[18] he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
1Cor.10
[33] just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

Jesus says:

Luke.16
[15] But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Luke.6
[26] Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.

10. On Dying:

Paul says:

I Corinthians 15

31: I protest, brethren, by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!

Jesus says:

John 11
26: and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.

11. On the basis of judgment:

Paul says:

Rom.2

[12] All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Jesus says:

John.12
[48] He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.

12. On the commandments and eternal life:

Paul says:

Rom.7
[9] I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
[10] the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me.

Jesus says:

Matt.19
[17] And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

13. On your father:

Paul says:

1Cor.4
[15] For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Phlm.1
[10] I appeal to you for my child, Ones'imus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment.

Jesus says:

Matt.23

[9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

14. On qualifying for eternal life:

Paul says:

Rom.5
[21] so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus says:

John.5
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

15. On the destiny of the creation (heavens and earth):

Paul says:

Rom.8
[21] because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Jesus says:

Matt.24
[35] Heaven and earth will pass away,

16. On the destiny of the Law and the Prophets:

Paul says:

Rom.10
[4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.

Jesus says:

Matt.5
[17] Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
[18] For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

17. On the number and identity of teachers:

Paul says:

1Cor.12
[28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers,
Eph.4
[11] And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
1Tim.2
[7] For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2Tim.1
[11] For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,

Jesus says:

Matt.23
[8] But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.

18. On the number to be saved:

Paul says:

Rom.11
[25] Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,
[26] and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.

Jesus says:

Matt.7
[13] Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

19. On the number and identity of pastors (shepherds):

Paul says:

Eph.4
[11] And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors (shepherds) and teachers,

Jesus says:

John.10
[16] And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

20. On the number and identity of leaders:

Paul says:

1Cor.4
[15] For though you have countless leaders in Christ . . ..

Jesus says:

Matt.23
[10] Neither be called leaders, for you have one leader, the Christ.

21: On total depravity:

Paul says:

Rom.3

[9] What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin,
[10] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
[22] For there is no distinction;
[23] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, . . ..

Jesus says:

Matt.12
[35] The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
Luke.6
[45] The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Matt.23
[35] that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

22. On unconditional election:

Paul says:

Rom.9
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

Jesus says:

Matt.7
[21] Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in yourname, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.

23. On sacrifices to God:

Paul says:

1Cor.5
[7] For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.
Eph.5
[2] And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Jesus says:

Matt.9
[13] Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.'

24. On remuneration for preaching the gospel:

Paul says:

1Tim.5
[17] Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;
[18] for the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages.
1Cor.9
[11] If we have sown spiritual good among you, is it too much if we reap your material benefits?
[12] If others share this rightful claim upon you, do not we still more?

Jesus says:

Matt.10
[7] And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
[8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.

25. On how one becomes a child of God:

Paul says:

Rom.8
[23] and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Gal.4
[5] to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Jesus says:

John.3
[3] Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten from above,* he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is begotten of the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be begotten from above.*

* John 3:3 and 3:7 are the author's translations. These differ from the RSV only in the expression "begotten from above" that replaces "born anew' in the RSV. "Born anew" does not represent the fullness of what Jesus is stating here, and does not correspond to the literatal translation of the Greek, anothen (a()nwqen).

 

[Truthseeker]

Paul's conversion was not to the True Faith of Jesus. Paul changed Christianity so that thereafter it became Paul's version of who Jesus was.
That is what you and all Christians believe, except for a handful of Christians who stayed with the True Faith of Jesus.

"That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Paul, however, did not pass on the revealed doctrine reflected in the glass of the intellectual categories of his time, as is often asserted; he transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’ He it was who gave baptism a mysterious significance, ‘so as to connect his mission with the experience of initiates in Hellenic mystery cults’, (232) he turned the last supper into a sacramental union with the Lord of those celebrating it; (233) he was responsible for the sacramentalization of the Christian religion, and took the phrase ‘Son of God’--- in the Jewish religion merely a title for the Messiah --- to be an ontological reality. The idea of the Son of God, come down from heaven to earth, hitherto inconceivable to Jewish thought, (234) was taken from Paul from the ancient religious syncretism of Asia Minor, to fit in with the need at the time for a general savior. It is generally accepted by critical scholarship that the godparents were the triad from the cult of Isia (Isis, Osiris and Horus) and also Attis, Adonis and Hercules. Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ……..

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as ‘Ebionites.’ As Schoeps puts it, the heresy-hunters ‘accused the Ebionites of a lapse or relapse into Judaism, whereas they were really only the Conservatives who could not go along with the Pauline-cum-Hellenistic elaborations’. (238) Schonfield comes to the same conclusion: ‘This Christianity in its teaching about Jesus continued in the tradition it had directly inherited, and could justifiably regard Pauline and catholic Christianity as heretical. It was not, as its opponents alleged, Jewish Christianity which debased the person of Jesus, but the Church in general which was misled into deifying him.’ (239) ‘Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. This is even admitted by some Catholics: ‘Christianity today mostly means Paul.’ (245) And Wilhelm Nestle stated—as noted also by Sabet—‘Christianity is the religion founded by Paul who replaces the Gospel of Jesus by a gospel about Jesus.’ (246) So also Schonfield: ‘Paul produced an amalgamation of ideas which, however unintentionally, did give rise to a new religion.’ (247)……

Measured by the standard of Baha’u’llah revelation, the Pauline doctrine of Justification, the doctrine of Original Sin, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the sacramentalisation of the Christian religion, the whole Church plan of salvation — which not only contradicts the Jewish understanding of God (255) but was also strongly repudiated by the revelation of God which succeeded Christianity (256) — these are a deformation of Jesus’s teaching. Some critical theological scholars have confirmed that these deformations in Christianity started very early, in fact with Paul, and that the arch-apostle, without whom Marcion would not have been possible, was the arch-heretic in Christianity—as Tertullian very rightly saw. (257) Years ago, when I became acquainted with the founder of the Christian religion in the faith of the original community through H. J. Schoep’s Theologie und Geschichte des Judenchristentums, (258) the standard work on the subject, I was deeply impressed. Here Jesus was not the only-begotten Son of God come down from Heaven, crucified and resurrected, nor the unique Saviour, but the messenger of God to whom the Quran testifies and who is glorified by Baha’u’llah. (259)"

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

Just so you know, I disagree with some of the conclusions of Udo Schaefer about what Paul taught. Paul was misinterpreted by Christians after him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just so you know, I disagree with some of the conclusions of Udo Schaefer about what Paul taught. Paul was misinterpreted by Christians after him.

What part of what Udo Schaefer wrote about what Paul taught do you disagree with?

 

[Truthseeker]

What part of what Udo Schaefer wrote about what Paul taught do you disagree with?

The doctrine of original sin arose later, principally by the interpretation of Augustine of Hippo. Paul is not so far off in his justification by Faith. He was was saying that "works of the law", which means Jewish law, as would have been assumed at the time when "works of the law" was said by him doesn't mean that good deeds mean nothing. Works of the Jewish law would have been superseded by the teachings of Christ anyway. It was Martin Luther that introduced the Protestant doctrine that only faith mattered and not works. He didn't understand the context of what Paul said, and he was too hard of on himself, and I believe that led him to psychologically to believe that so he could feel liberated from the oppression he felt was imposed on him. Paul did not teach the Holy Trinity, that dogma came later, gradually over time and at the Council of Nicea was made the official doctrine of the Church. Paul was not an arch-heretic.

 

[Trailblazer]

Paul is not so far off in his justification by Faith.

No, I don't think Paul was off on that, but I think he was off on other things, making Jesus into who Jesus never claimed to be, as Schaefer said.

I like what Paul said about faith and I agree with it. I just posted this on another thread:

I also have faith, but it is evidence-based faith. No just God would expect people to believe if there was no evidence.

Faith is what God wants us to have and that is why there is no proof that God exists.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Believing in God requires faith since no man has ever seen God. Then we go looking for the evidence. I believe that God will reward those who earnestly seek Him by helping them find the evidence they need to believe.

God could prove that He exists if God wanted to do so, but If God proved He exists then we would no longer need faith, because we would know 'for a fact' that God exists. So, it makes logical sense to me why there is no proof that God exists, because God wants us to believe on faith and the evidence that God provides.

Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, but there is no way to verify that God exists, so there is no verifiable evidence, which is the kind of evidence that atheists want.

The only way we could have verifiable evidence (proof) that God exists is if God verified His existence in some manner.

If God wanted verify that He exists He could easily do so, but instead all God offers is evidence. The Bible is evidence, but there is also other evidence.

 

[Truthseeker]

No, I don't think Paul was off on that, but I think he was off on other things, making Jesus into who Jesus never claimed to be, as Schaefer said.

Did Paul exalt Him higher than what He was, like saying he was equal to God? Though there is one spot that can be interpreted that way. There is another thing he seems to say to the contrary.

1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is [only] one God, the Father, Who is the Source of all things and for Whom we [have life], and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through and by Whom are all things and through and by Whom we [ourselves exist].

What looks like Paul was making Jesus equal to God is here:

2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(King James Bible, Philippians)

The Amplified classic edition version:

Philippians 2:5 Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [b]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [c]or retained,

7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and [d]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!

Not something to be sure of on my part either way.

 

[Trailblazer]

1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is [only] one God, the Father, Who is the Source of all things and for Whom we [have life], and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through and by Whom are all things and through and by Whom we [ourselves exist].

What do you think this means? This indicates that Jesus is God.

one Lord, Jesus Christ, through and by Whom are all things and through and by Whom we [ourselves exist].
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What do you think this means? This is referring to Jesus, and some Christians claim this means Jesus is God.

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Truthseeker]

The Colossians passage was written before the Gospel of John definitely, and might have inspired this:

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In the Amplified Bible, classic edition:

1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [b]Himself.

2 He was present originally with God.

3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

I don't remember seeing that Colossians passage before.

I think that Christ in the Amplified Bible is an interpretation, not a translation. The original word translated as Word, that word was logos. On Goggle it says:

Logos is a Greek word meaning "word, discourse, or reason," and it's the root of logic.

What is logos meaning in the Bible?

Its most basic and common meaning is simply “word,” “speech,” “utterance,” or “message.” The most famous way the Bible uses logos is in reference to Jesus as the Word, such as in John 1:1 : In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God.

Everybody seems to assume this "Word" refers to Jesus. I don't think so.

This discussion confuses me, but then it is 5:20 here. I couldn't sleep.

 

[Truthseeker]

@Trailblazer, The Bab said this:

If, however, thou art sailing upon the sea of creation, know thou that the First Remembrance, which is the Primal Will of God, may be likened unto the sun. God hath created Him through the potency of His might, and He hath, from the beginning that hath no beginning, caused Him to be manifested in every Dispensation through the compelling power of His behest, and God will, to the end that knoweth no end, continue to manifest Him according to the good-pleasure of His invincible Purpose.

And know thou that He indeed resembleth the sun. Were the risings of the sun to continue till the end that hath no end, yet there hath not been nor ever will be more than one sun; and were its settings to endure forevermore, still there hath not been nor ever will be more than one sun. It is this Primal Will which appeareth resplendent in every Prophet and speaketh forth in every revealed Book. It knoweth no beginning, inasmuch as the First deriveth its firstness from It; and knoweth no end, for the Last oweth its lastness unto It.

In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muḥammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the “Point of the Bayán”; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom God shall make manifest.
The Báb, "Selections from the Writings of the Báb", 4.10.4

Abdu'l-Baha, the interpreter, said this:

The first thing to emanate from God is that universal reality which the ancient philosophers termed the “First Intellect” and which the people of Bahá call the “Primal Will”.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions ", 53.5

So, as far as John goes, the word "logos" is in conformity with this "primal will" or "first intellect". I think that that passage by Paul is off. The universe was not created through Jesus.