What is God responsible for?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you are saying God is responsible for creation... Yes.
Are you saying God is responsible for the atom bomb... the gas chambers... Boka Haram, and Hezbollah.... and the list goes on? How is God responsible?

Well, are those things part of God's creation or not?

The answer is either yes or no. Either answer creates theological problems.

... but to use a Biblical metaphor, if we are all pots that God the potter has molded for noble or common purposes, then responsibility for our form and outcomes lies with God. The quality of the pot is a reflection on the skill of the potter.

If there's an air bubble in the clay of a pot that causes it to explode in the kiln and destroy the good pots around it, that isn't the fault of the pot; it's the fault of the potter.

Or to use another Biblical metaphor: a good tree doesn't produce bad fruit. If there are people in the world who are "bad fruit," then either:

- they're the product of God, and therefore reflect on God, or
- they're the product of some other "tree," implying that God has allowed that tree in his "garden" (so they still reflect on God).

 

[Trailblazer]

We are looking at that statement within the reference of what we know today and in that reference you are correct. Our bodies are created from the natural substance, earth, that was cursed in Genesis 3.

However, the body that Adam had before the earth was cursed was created for eternity. Indeed, the medical profession still doesn't know why we age when our cells replace old cells.

Unless you have Bible verses that actually say any of that, it is just a belief Christians hold because it was taught to them by the Church. I know of no verses that say any of that so I believe the belief is based upon a faulty interpretation of Genesis. This of course opens up a Pandora's Box, because there are so many ways that the Bible can be interpreted.

If you want to post the verses that you believe say that Adam was immortal before the Fall, go ahead and do that, and I will tell you what I believe those verses actually mean.

Meanwhile, below is what Baha'is believe about the Tree of Life compared to the Christian belief.
Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.

The Meaning of the Tree of Life

“God told Adam not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the words, "For on the day that you eat of it, you will surely die". But there was no such prohibition concerning the Tree of Life. If Adam had eaten from that tree, he would have lived forever and never died. Instead he and his wife ended up eating from the forbidden tree, because they listened to a voice which tempted them to doubt the goodness of God. This is Satan’s tactic today with us. We neglect the LIFE God gives and end up trying to attain it by going on a path forbidden by God.

How good it would have been had Adam instead chosen to eat from the Tree of Life! God had said, "Of every tree in the garden you may freely eat…" Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life! In doing so, he would have known God in an even greater way, and would never have died in any way! If he had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would never have been interested in the forbidden tree. But having NEGLECTED the tree of life, it was really only a matter of time before he would fall to the temptation of eating the forbidden fruit.”

https://www.christian-faith.com/meaning-tree-life/

What is the Tree of Life?

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)”

What is the Tree of Life?

By contrast to the Christian belief, Baha’is believe that the tree of life is symbolic for the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His Manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 124

From: 30: ADAM AND EVE

 

[Kenny]

Unless you have Bible verses that actually say any of that, it is just a belief Christians hold because it was taught to them by the Church. I know of no verses that say any of that so I believe the belief is based upon a faulty interpretation of Genesis. This of course opens up a Pandora's Box, because there are so many ways that the Bible can be interpreted.

If you want to post the verses that you believe say that Adam was immortal before the Fall, go ahead and do that, and I will tell you what I believe those verses actually mean.

Certainly, there are many ways that people interpret it just as you viewed your interpretation below:

however,

Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

is still written and the word "die" in the original is plural (spirit, soul and body)

and Gen 3: Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; - is very specific and our bodies is made up of the ground.

So, at the least I have some basis for my position. And there is absolutely no scripture to say they were going to die physically so to say they were not going to live forever in their bodies is an interpretation.

Whereas, the body of Jesus is an eternal body as the Second Adam and thus it is natural to believe the First Adam had the same type of body until he sinned.

The Meaning of the Tree of Life

“God told Adam not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the words, "For on the day that you eat of it, you will surely die". But there was no such prohibition concerning the Tree of Life. If Adam had eaten from that tree, he would have lived forever and never died. Instead he and his wife ended up eating from the forbidden tree, because they listened to a voice which tempted them to doubt the goodness of God. This is Satan’s tactic today with us. We neglect the LIFE God gives and end up trying to attain it by going on a path forbidden by God.

How good it would have been had Adam instead chosen to eat from the Tree of Life! God had said, "Of every tree in the garden you may freely eat…" Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life! In doing so, he would have known God in an even greater way, and would never have died in any way! If he had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would never have been interested in the forbidden tree. But having NEGLECTED the tree of life, it was really only a matter of time before he would fall to the temptation of eating the forbidden fruit.”

https://www.christian-faith.com/meaning-tree-life/

What is the Tree of Life?

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)”

What is the Tree of Life?

By contrast to the Christian belief, Baha’is believe that the tree of life is symbolic for the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His Manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”

I have no problem with this additional understanding. There is both a spiritual truth as well as a natural truth because what we see is always manifested by what we cannot see:

NLT By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.

So, just like "God said" and it was created, likewise the the Word of God which bestows eternal life and is the highest degree of the world of existence, it is manifested with a physical body that is eternal.

Your view is the spiritual part and mine is the manifestation of the spiritual realm that created an eternal body much the same as Jesus' body

 

[1213]

And what part of "what we have seen and experienced" doesn't ultimately trace back to God?

For example, all Godless actions are from someone else than from God.

God has made this all possible, but He is not the one who does bad things.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For example, all Godless actions are from someone else than from God.

Interesting. What else around us doesn't need God to explain its existence?

This is refreshing. I'm in the middle of another thread that a theist created to argue that God is the necessary source for the universe and everything in it.

God has made this all possible, but He is not the one who does bad things.

Wait, so God doesn't commit evil; he merely allows it?

Does God allow these bad things knowingly?

 

[nPeace]

Our parents are responsible for creating a baby so they are responsible to care for that baby and child from the moment of conception, but God is responsible for creating humans such that there would be parents, knowing that sometimes those parents would not take proper care of their children. The whole system of free will – that God created man with -- allows people to get hurt by other people and animals to get hurt by people and other animals. It is a very cruel world that God created, and as Blu always says, the buck stops with God, since God is omnipotent and omniscient.

Yes. I think you used the correct terms here.
God is responsible for creating two humans who defected, and God has allowed the suffering, but on the basis of hope Romans 8:20
However, the suffering now, cannot compare to the glory to come. Romans 8:18

Depending on how you are using the term responsible, God is not responsible for the actions of the humans. He does not control them.

I mean just what I said, unless you are so naïve as to think that everything we do not like about our lives a can be magically changed. Maybe you never heard of the serenity prayer.

I was only trying to understand what you meant. It wasn't very clear to me.

I agree that it was Jesus’ spiritual body that rose, but that is what most Christians believe; they believe that the physical body of Jesus came back to life.

Christians do not believe Jesus rose with a spiritual body because that would not be a miracle. The entire point of the resurrection is that it was the physical body of Jesus that rose from the grave, came back to life, and that was a miracle.

“The New Testament declares that without Christ's bodily res-urrection there is no salvation (Rom. 10:9-10). For He "was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justifi-cation" (Rom. 4:25). The physical resurrection of Christ's body is just as much a part of the gospel as His death (1 Cor. 15:1-5). The Apos-tle Paul insisted that if Jesus did not rise bodily from the dead, then (a) the faith of believers is useless, (b) they are still in their sins, (c) departed loved ones are lost, (d) the apostles are false witnesses, and (e) "we are of all men most to be pitied" (1 Cor. 15:14-19).!”
The Significance of Christ's Physical Resurrection

I believe that is a misinterpretation of the Bible, and what Paul said referred to a spiritual resurrection.

The Orthodox View of the Resurrection Body of Christ

“Orthodox Christianity has always confessed two things about the resurrection body of Christ. First, it was the same physical body in which Jesus was crucified. Second, Jesus' body, at the moment it was resurrected, became an immortal, glorified body, a body that was physical but was also imperishable. Both are important to a biblical view of the resurrection, but the former is the primary focus of this discussion.”
The Significance of Christ's Physical Resurrection

Read the above quote and weep. It says that the body was physical but was also imperishable, which is an oxymoron, because no physical body is imperishable. Christians just cannot give up this attachment to the physical body of Jesus which is diametrically opposed to everything Jesus said about the flesh profiting nothing, and they cannot even see the irony in that because they have been so brainwashed by the church doctrines:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Thank God for that! At least some Christians are rational.

I am not sure what you are asking me. I think the verse means that God is responsible for both life and death. Do you have any idea how much suffering death of loved ones, human and animal, causes? I have no words to describe it, and it is God’s design.

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Based on what we read in the book of Job, Job did not understand why he was suffering. So like many people today Job felt that his affliction, was in some way from Jehovah. He was mistaken.
What I like is that even though he was suffering greatly, he did not curse God, and throw him away.
It shows he was really a humble person, willing to be corrected.
That's the kind of individual Jehovah draws near.

I was asking, What do you mean by "fallen mortal bodies"?

 

[nPeace]

Well, are those things part of God's creation or not?

Not.

The answer is either yes or no. Either answer creates theological problems.

... but to use a Biblical metaphor, if we are all pots that God the potter has molded for noble or common purposes, then responsibility for our form and outcomes lies with God. The quality of the pot is a reflection on the skill of the potter.

If there's an air bubble in the clay of a pot that causes it to explode in the kiln and destroy the good pots around it, that isn't the fault of the pot; it's the fault of the potter.

Or to use another Biblical metaphor: a good tree doesn't produce bad fruit. If there are people in the world who are "bad fruit," then either:

- they're the product of God, and therefore reflect on God, or
- they're the product of some other "tree," implying that God has allowed that tree in his "garden" (so they still reflect on God).

Yes. God has allowed. Very good.
Does that mean he is responsible for what humans do? No.

Does the clay say to the potter though, "What are you doing?" No.

 

[nPeace]

Interesting. What else around us doesn't need God to explain its existence?

This is refreshing. I'm in the middle of another thread that a theist created to argue that God is the necessary source for the universe and everything in it.


Wait, so God doesn't commit evil; he merely allows it?

Does God allow these bad things knowingly?

One can only be said to allow something, if they know about it.
Yes, God allowed suffering knowingly. Romans 8:18-25

 

[nPeace]

Unless you have Bible verses that actually say any of that, it is just a belief Christians hold because it was taught to them by the Church. I know of no verses that say any of that so I believe the belief is based upon a faulty interpretation of Genesis. This of course opens up a Pandora's Box, because there are so many ways that the Bible can be interpreted.

If you want to post the verses that you believe say that Adam was immortal before the Fall, go ahead and do that, and I will tell you what I believe those verses actually mean.

Meanwhile, below is what Baha'is believe about the Tree of Life compared to the Christian belief.
Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.

The Meaning of the Tree of Life

“God told Adam not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, with the words, "For on the day that you eat of it, you will surely die". But there was no such prohibition concerning the Tree of Life. If Adam had eaten from that tree, he would have lived forever and never died. Instead he and his wife ended up eating from the forbidden tree, because they listened to a voice which tempted them to doubt the goodness of God. This is Satan’s tactic today with us. We neglect the LIFE God gives and end up trying to attain it by going on a path forbidden by God.

How good it would have been had Adam instead chosen to eat from the Tree of Life! God had said, "Of every tree in the garden you may freely eat…" Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life! In doing so, he would have known God in an even greater way, and would never have died in any way! If he had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would never have been interested in the forbidden tree. But having NEGLECTED the tree of life, it was really only a matter of time before he would fall to the temptation of eating the forbidden fruit.”

https://www.christian-faith.com/meaning-tree-life/

What is the Tree of Life?

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)”

What is the Tree of Life?

By contrast to the Christian belief, Baha’is believe that the tree of life is symbolic for the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His Manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

“The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 124

From: 30: ADAM AND EVE

There is nowhere in scripture that says Adam was immortal. You are correct about that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not.

So at least certain human beings don't need God as their creator?

Like I said to @1213 - this is a refreshing change from the arguments I usually get from theists.

Yes. God has allowed. Very good.
Does that mean he is responsible for what humans do? No.

Why "no?"

If God foresaw evil in the world, could have prevented it, but chose to introduce the source of that evil into the world anyway, how could he not be responsible?

... unless you think God either couldn't foresee it or couldn't prevent it. Is that it?

Does the clay say to the potter though, "What are you doing?" No.

Are you arguing that humans aren't sentient?

If Genesis is to be believed, humans have been embued with the knowledge of goid and evil "as God" and are therefore eminently qualified to judge God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One can only be said to allow something, if they know about it.
Yes, God allowed suffering knowingly. Romans 8:18-25

Then God is responsible for that suffering.

 

[nPeace]

So at least certain human beings don't need God as their creator?

Like I said to @1213 - this is a refreshing change from the arguments I usually get from theists.


Why "no?"

If God foresaw evil in the world, could have prevented it, but chose to introduce the source of that evil into the world anyway, how could he not be responsible?

... unless you think God either couldn't foresee it or couldn't prevent it. Is that it?

Can you please define the term responsible, and explain in what sense you are using it.

Are you arguing that humans aren't sentient?

No. On what basis are you asking this?

If Genesis is to be believed, humans have been embued with the knowledge of goid and evil "as God" and are therefore eminently qualified to judge God.

This has been covered in this thread, and the concept you are presenting here is not in the Genesis account.
What do they judge God on the basis of?

 

[nPeace]

Then God is responsible for that suffering.

Responsible as in he directs it, or is obligated to end it?
If the latter... Yes. He is obligated to end it... and he will.
You did read the scripture in Romans 8, I hope.

 

[Colt]

I see the attributes of God in his children. Without the potential for imperfection and suffering in Gods plan of ascension and growth, there would be no contrasting joy and happiness.

But the confusion and retardation caused by the Lucifer rebellion lead to consequences that we all have to bear.

 

[halbhh]

I mean things like a desire to murder: personally, I don't have one. I don't wish to kill anybody, so me not murdering anyone doesn't come down to "free will" for me.

...but some other people do have a desire to kill. Some of them will act on that desire.

That difference - a desire to kill or not - isn't a matter of free will, and I'm sitting here as a living example of someone who apparently has free will but - through no effort of my own - has been prevented from going around murdering people.

... which is why I think "free will" doesn't work as an explanation for why a God would allow acts he disapproves of.

Heh heh, a desire to kill is not in Maslow's hierarchy....

But it's not there because it is not an innate drive -- not built into our genes as a drive/urge that we all share.

Instead, a desire to harm or kill is a way the intellect might choose to act out anger or rage -- by being violent.

While anger/rage are emotions (an innate ability we all have) and are always reactions to particular events in an individual's experience, whether they remember the events or not, still it is a volitional choice how to use anger.
(e.g. -- as an example, one person might choose to cave in to a familiar old habit/learned behavior to get violent, for instance, but another person facing the same provocation might use their own anger in a much more functional or good way, such as to demand fairness or put up a defense).

Some have learned (learned, and not instinct) to use their anger in certain ways that are not good, such as just taking out rage on the target available at the moment by a learned way of acting out an habituated (learned) violent action.

 

[1213]

Interesting. What else around us doesn't need God to explain its existence?

People could not do bad things, if God would not have made it so that people can exist. But God is not the one who does the bad things people choose and want. So, in a way God is the explanation to all that exists, because He made this all possible. But He is not the one who does bad things.

…

Does God allow these bad things knowingly?

I believe God knows what is happening here.

 

[Trailblazer]

Certainly, there are many ways that people interpret it just as you viewed your interpretation below:

however,

Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

is still written and the word "die" in the original is plural (spirit, soul and body)

and Gen 3: Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; - is very specific and our bodies is made up of the ground.

So, at the least I have some basis for my position. And there is absolutely no scripture to say they were going to die physically so to say they were not going to live forever in their bodies is an interpretation.

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It says they would die if they ate the fruit, but it does not say that otherwise they would live forever. To say had they not eaten the fruit they would have lived forever in their bodies is an assumption. It is an even bigger assumption to say that all of humanity would have lived forever if Adam and Eve had lived forever.

Here is one explanation of the story from a Baha’i perspective, which is allegorical:

“Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.

We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.

The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.

The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary 4 was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity—that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.

Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 123-125

From: 30: ADAM AND EVE​

Whereas, the body of Jesus is an eternal body as the Second Adam and thus it is natural to believe the First Adam had the same type of body until he sinned.

I do not know what scriptures you are basing that upon, to say that the body of Jesus is an eternal body. I believe that Jesus has an eternal body, but it is a spiritual body, not a physical body.

This excerpt from the longer passage above describes the Fall of Adam..........

“For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin……”​

This is congruent with what Jesus said about being attached to this human world, that we would lose eternal life thereby.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

I have no problem with this additional understanding. There is both a spiritual truth as well as a natural truth because what we see is always manifested by what we cannot see:

NLT By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.

So, just like "God said" and it was created, likewise the Word of God which bestows eternal life and is the highest degree of the world of existence, it is manifested with a physical body that is eternal.

Your view is the spiritual part and mine is the manifestation of the spiritual realm that created an eternal body much the same as Jesus' body.

I do not know why you need a physical body to be eternal. I believe that we will all have a body like Jesus’ body, a body that is eternal, but it will be a spiritual body, not a physical body.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

That we will be raised in a spiritual body is congruent with 1 Corinthians 15, and it is clearly explained in this article:

Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

What Paul said is congruent with what Baha’is believe.

Baha’is believe that souls go to heaven and take on a spiritual body, which is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor:

We are raised in a spiritual body because only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

1st Corinthians 15

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The verse above says nothing about the physical body being changed into a glorified body that cannot die. The verses above clearly state that there are two kinds of bodies, a natural body and a spiritual body; we are sown in a natural body and we are raised in a spiritual body.

There is no way for us to understand what that body will be like, or what the spiritual world will be like, because there is no frame of reference for the spiritual realm of existence (heaven), since it is so different from this realm, nothing like we have ever seen or experienced. In the same way, we ourselves might find it impossible to describe to a child in the womb of its mother the reality of this world. We could talk about trees and birds and swing sets, but the words would evoke no meaningful mental images, and nothing useful would have been imparted.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Heh heh, a desire to kill is not in Maslow's hierarchy....

But it's not there because it is not an innate drive -- not built into our genes as a drive/urge that we all share.

Instead, a desire to harm or kill is a way the intellect might choose to act out anger or rage (which are emotions that are reactions to particular events in an individual's experience, whether they remember the events or not).

In other words, given our natural innate ability to respond with anger to an offense, it is still up to the individual to choose how to use the anger (e.g. -- to choose to cave in to a familiar old habit/learned behavior to get violent, for instance).

Some have learned (learned, and not instinct) to use their anger in certain ways that are not good, such as just taking out rage on the target available at the moment by a learned way of acting out anger as violent action.

Right: it's not innate; it's a result of influences from other things in God's creation.

... but how would that absolve God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Right: it's not innate; it's a result of influences from other things in God's creation.

... but how would that absolve God?

How would it implicate God?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can you please define the term responsible, and explain in what sense you are using it.

The two senses that I think are most relevant:

- God is the ultimate cause of the evil in the world, and
- God is culpable for the evil in the world.

No. On what basis are you asking this?

You asked why clay doesn't ask the potter "what are you doing?" The answer is obvious: a lump of clay is not a thinking, feeling being.

This has been covered in this thread, and the concept you are presenting here is not in the Genesis account.

Yes it is. It's in Genesis 3:22:

And the Lord God said, “Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

What do they judge God on the basis of?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Anything with the capacity to judge has the basis to judge.

"A cat may look at a king," as they say.