What is God responsible for?

[halbhh]

Yes, but some people choose whether to react to anger by burning down the house of the person who angered them; others don't have to make that choice because the idea of burning down the person's house never occurs to them.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It doesn't seem like you do.

That's how you'd like to imagine it?

Ok.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's how you'd like to imagine it?

Ok.

You aren't giving me confidence that you understand what I'm saying to you.

 

[halbhh]

You aren't giving me confidence that you understand what I'm saying to you.

There is a kind of general view, which I've read articles for and against in the sciences, a meta-idea, that human choices are determined by our genes and the environment.

That we can only choose what our genes and/or the situation programs us to choose.

I'm pretty confident that idea is mistaken. For specific reasons.

For more than 1 reason. But here is 1 key reason:

Due to developments in physics, full physical determinism (the old 'clockwork universe' idea updated) itself looks less and less likely to be the case. Via "bell test experiments" over decades of time, it's looking less and less likely that is is possible that nature is fully deterministic.

Of course, part of human consciousness at least (if not 100%) is based physically, in the physical brain, and thus is physics in action.

But, if, as seems more and more likely proven, nature itself is indeterministic, then already both the brain and the environment around an individual -- both -- are inherently unpredictable. Not just due to incalculability. Not just for that, but because nature itself would not be deterministic, thus natural things like brains would not be deterministic either.

 

[Trailblazer]

... so God gave up some of his sovereignty?

No, God retains His sovereignty because God can override free will decisions of humans, if God wants to.

Rather than get hung up on the word "evil," maybe look at it this way:

If God created a world that has things he disapproves of, then God fell short of his own standard.

But God did not create a world with things he disapproves of, God created everything to His standards...
God disapproves of some things people choose to do, but He allows them to do them because God honors free will.

So then God would be culpable for that suffering.

True.

"God set it up that way" seems to me to imply that God is entirely responsible.

Yes, God is entirely responsible for the setup.
What God is not responsible for are the free will choices humans make.

 

[Trailblazer]

How could it possibly be that the God who created humanity and everything that influences humanity not be responsible for the evil actions of humanity?

God is not responsible for the free will decisions and ensuing actions of humans.
Humans are responsible for their own choices, especially their moral choices.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I first really tried doing one (and then eventually later another) of the instructions Jesus gave, I was not believing. I just wanted to try out and find good ways to live life better, for my benefit, here and now.

The first instruction I tried doing in a really full intentional way (I'd done a few of course just along the way in life sporadically, like forgiving people) -- the first all-out effort was to do what He said was the '2nd greatest commandment' : "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Where I took it to be anyone you encounter extensively, but for good measure as the experiment I picked the 'neighbor'(s) as the literal next door neighbors living on either side of me.

Complete strangers.

The results were astoundingly good, to me. I was already someone that had had close friends in earlier times in my life, though not yet at this new place/new city. I knew what friendship was, and had enjoyed before. This was better in surprising ways. It was very much like buying a $1 lottery ticket and winning a significant sum, like $50,000. That's how remarkable it was. But "love" is more profound than only friendliness. Really opening my heart and really trying to love them, which was risky. It's also a one-way ticket: real love doesn't really end. You can't really go back. So, while I had an escape plan just in case it didn't work out, I've found that if you are really loving them, they will love you back. Like you can be the only non-family member invited to birthday parties, for one illustrative example that happened early on.

This is a kind of proof of one important thing: that Jesus said true things ("true" = the best of all competing ways/solutions). For me what happened after I finally was satisfied after many varied test of that first idea, was to try another one, and after that one, then another. That progression eventually ended up in the things He said to do that require faith. I prayed to God like this: "God...bring me to you. Make a way from me to you." And He did, and it was rather dramatic actually. To pray that way...was a leap of faith. I had faith for a few seconds, doing that prayer. Perhaps it helped that I'd been listening to Christ, the one who knows God better than anyone else.

That is a good test of "Love your neighbor as yourself" but it does not tell us that God is good and loving.
That is what I had/have a problem with.

Trailblazer said: ↑
Can you give me one good reason why we should believe God is good and loving, aside from what is written in scriptures?
I am really struggling to believe that.

Can you give me one good reason why we should trust God, aside from what is written in scriptures?
I am really struggling to do that but I see no reason to.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God is not responsible for the free will decisions and ensuing actions of humans.

He's responsible if he:

- designed and created human beings,
- could foresee (or ought to have reasonably foreseen) the decisions that humans would make, and
- had the power to design humans in a way that would have avoided the problems of those human decisions.

Which of these things do you think is beyond the capabilities of your God?

Humans are responsible for their own choices, especially their moral choices.

Responsibility isn't a zero-sum game.

 

[Trailblazer]

He's responsible if he:

- designed and created human beings,
- could foresee (or ought to have reasonably foreseen) the decisions that humans would make, and
- had the power to design humans in a way that would have avoided the problems of those human decisions.

Which of these things do you think is beyond the capabilities of your God?

God designed and created human beings
God could foresee the decisions that humans would make
God had the power to design humans in a way that would have avoided the problems of those human decisions, but the only way God could have done that would have been to design humans as robots and program them.
Would you like to be a robot programmed by God?

Responsibility isn't a zero-sum game.

What do you mean by that?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God designed and created human beings
God could foresee the decisions that humans would make
God had the power to design humans in a way that would have avoided the problems of those human decisions,

Then there you go: God is responsible for the actions of humanity.

but the only way God could have done that would have been to design humans as robots and program them.
Would you like to be a robot programmed by God?

Nonsense.

What do you mean by that?

I mean that one person can be responsible for another person's actions without it diminishing the responsibility of someone who actually did the act.

For instance, if someone murders someone else in cold blood, that person is entirely responsible for the murder. Still, if I knew the murderer's plans and gave him the murder weapon anyway, then I would also bear responsibility for the murder. I can have responsibility the murderer's actions without diminishing the murderer's responsibility for what he did.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then there you go: God is responsible for the actions of humanity.

No, God is not responsible for human free will choices and actions because God does not think or act for humans. God designed us with a mind and free will so we could think and act for ourselves. God revealed teachings and laws so humans could make the right moral choices. God bears no responsibility for humans who choose not to follow those teachings and laws.

Nonsense.

If you can’t come up with another way why do you think God could have?
Why not just take over the job of being God?

I mean that one person can be responsible for another person's actions without it diminishing the responsibility of someone who actually did the act.

For instance, if someone murders someone else in cold blood, that person is entirely responsible for the murder. Still, if I knew the murderer's plans and gave him the murder weapon anyway, then I would also bear responsibility for the murder. I can have responsibility the murderer's actions without diminishing the murderer's responsibility for what he did.

God is not responsible for human free will choices just because God gave man free will. If a car manufacturer designs a car that can go up to 120 MPH that does not mean that that the car manufacturer is responsible for people who CHOOSE to drive way over the speed limit and cause accidents that kill people on the road. Nobody would blame the car manufacturer so why do atheists blame God for what humans CHOOSE to do with their free will? How utterly illogical.

It won’t work to say that since God is all-knowing God knew the driver’s plans so God should have stopped the driver from driving too fast… Why should God do that when people are perfectly capable of doing that for themselves? Why should God take over everyone’s mind and free will and do everything for them? This is petulantly childish.

 

[Truthseeker]

This is a kind of proof of one important thing: that Jesus said true things ("true" = the best of all competing ways/solutions). For me what happened after I finally was satisfied after many varied test of that first idea, was to try another one, and after that one, then another. That progression eventually ended up in the things He said to do that require faith. I prayed to God like this: "God...bring me to you. Make a way from me to you." And He did, and it was rather dramatic actually. To pray that way...was a leap of faith. I had faith for a few seconds, doing that prayer. Perhaps it helped that I'd been listening to Christ, the one who knows God better than anyone else.

I'm glad that you found a way to God.

That is a good test of "Love your neighbor as yourself" but it does not tell us that God is good and loving.
That is what I had/have a problem with.

You didn't really pay attention I don't think in the last paragraph. Am I wrong about that? Similarly, Baha'u'llah said a lot of true things which you believe and you need to have a leap of faith and pray for God's love to reach you.

 

[Trailblazer]

You didn't really pay attention I don't think in the last paragraph. Am I wrong about that? Similarly, Baha'u'llah said a lot of true things which you believe and you need to have a leap of faith and pray for God's love to reach you.

No, I kind of skimmed over the post because I was in a hurry this morning. Thanks for pointing that out.

He said to do that require faith. I prayed to God like this: "God...bring me to you. Make a way from me to you." And He did, and it was rather dramatic actually. To pray that way...was a leap of faith. I had faith for a few seconds, doing that prayer.

I am not sure I would want to so what halbhh did and ask for God to bring me to Him because of the way I feel about God. Besides, why would God's love reach me given what Baha'u'llah said in the Hidden Words, that I have to love God first? I don't think that is very fair but I don't make the rules.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

 

[rational experiences]

Basic common sense. Any human healthy can think for theirselves.

O earth one burning self body mass was as energy consuming is the first God. Evil.

In space history.

Thinking quotes that O body was a fallen angel in hell. Evil. Rejected by one other body. The eternal.

So God in the past O origin was evil.

O God in the present is sealed. The seal of earth kept life safe as God.

Science as chosen by man the science theist for science owned first sin. Cause of the state science practiced. Conversion. Broke god earth seal.

How God hurt us.

So man as brothers human hurt self. Man then discussed man by his brothers life harm as a personal human teaching. For man.

Water X mass we were using for body health and cell food. History memory said once humans were not like the beasts we never needed to eat.

We had food for life in blood water microbiome.

Lost it. Introduced unnatural life conditions. Human behaviours changed. Bio chemistry changed.

The water plus microbes contradicted radiation. Was heated carbonized microbes image of human angels formed in the clouds. Historic event.

We said and told the story clouds became life protection. Humans became angels. Angels the cloud mass saved life.

A real phenomena condition.

We knew and always knew.

Water cloud evaporation exists today that draws up new microbes not carbon burnt. Water and microbes life for a bio water body.

How a human angel no longer human assisted our life. Known. Witnessed. Advised. Reality. Visited speak. Know.

Reason human conscious expression now So encoded speak in atmosphere as a real caused science condition.

The status proven to any scientist that spirit owned the formed creations presence as it's loss.

So religious science took control over science as creation had in fact owned a spirit cause.

What is lied about are the various causes of the states phenomena.

Humans direct from unconditional love were not from God we are not evil creation history.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, God is not responsible for human free will choices and actions because God does not think or act for humans. God designed us with a mind and free will so we could think and act for ourselves.

... but knowing what the outcome of our choices would be, which makes him responsible.

God revealed teachings and laws so humans could make the right moral choices. God bears no responsibility for humans who choose not to follow those teachings and laws.

Of course he does.

If what you're saying were true, then any time someone didn't follow God's teachings, this would mean that there's a problem with:

- the design of the students (which is solely God's responsibility)
- the material being taught (again, God)
- the way the material was delivered (again, God)

And it's not just a matter of moral choices. Take this recent bridge collapse in Mexico:

Mexico City: Metro train bridge collapse leaves several dead | DW | 04.05.2021

23 dead (so far), dozens injured. Did God know how bad the bridge's condition was? If not, why not? If he did, why didn't he tell anyone?

If you can’t come up with another way why do you think God could have?
Why not just take over the job of being God?

I meant that the idea that preventing someone from doing something makes the person a "robot" is nonsense. When someone intervenes to stop a murder, that doesn't make the would-be murderer a "robot" somehow.

God is not responsible for human free will choices just because God gave man free will. If a car manufacturer designs a car that can go up to 120 MPH that does not mean that that the car manufacturer is responsible for people who CHOOSE to drive way over the speed limit and cause accidents that kill people on the road. Nobody would blame the car manufacturer so why do atheists blame God for what humans CHOOSE to do with their free will? How utterly illogical.

There have been lawsuits focused on that exact point. IIRC, they generally lose because the car manufacturer wasn't aware - and couldn't be expected to be aware - that the person who killed someone with their car would use the car that way on that particular day.

It won’t work to say that since God is all-knowing God knew the driver’s plans so God should have stopped the driver from driving too fast… Why should God do that when people are perfectly capable of doing that for themselves?

Because any decent person who knew what the driver was about to do and was able to stop him would do so. I'm only applying the same standard to God that I'd apply to a person.

Now... because we're limited, fallible humans, we often aren't aware of misfortune before it happens or aren't physically capable stopping it. You agreed that neither of limitations applies to God.

We all do - or ought to do - only what we can to make the world better, or at least stop it from getting worse. It's just that with a God, "what we can" is a heck of a lot.

Why should God take over everyone’s mind and free will and do everything for them? This is petulantly childish.

God, if he were real, would need to intervene from time to time for the same reason a person would take a drunk's keys or call them a cab: basic morality and ethics.

 

[rational experiences]

What I learnt about my brother the first group men scientists.

Who say consciously I am Satan and then god as a human.

Think about no creation.

Place yourself as an eternal being in eternity. The only spirit.

Who made a mistake.

The mistake leaves the form natural in eternal. Which owns a theme how and why.

We learnt the outcome by inheritance into change as humans.

And gave ourself the answer.

You would say I am an eternal being. I fell as an angel of God O mass bodies held to a sound into bursting and burning.

I formed into God a seal a planet. God saved my satanic being. I became my own heavens.

I returned to the eternal body but I could not enter instead I then left and became trees sacrificed wood spirit. I then became man.

Telling your own eternal story as a human who came out after creation healed cooled to be aware enough to understand what happened.

How I was taught.

 

[Thief]

Take away all the attributes we can't prove, what's the difference between God and the Devil? None.

indeed......

ask of God a favor.....He might do it
ask of the Devil.....He might do it

either way......your soul is forfeit

 

[Trailblazer]

... but knowing what the outcome of our choices would be, which makes him responsible.

How does that make God responsible? God did not make the choices or commit the acts.

Of course he does.

Why is God responsible if humans choose not to follow His teachings and laws?

If what you're saying were true, then any time someone didn't follow God's teachings, this would mean that there's a problem with:

- the design of the students (which is solely God's responsibility)

- the material being taught (again, God)

- the way the material was delivered (again, God)

- There is no problem with the human design as we all have a brain and free will and the capacity to understand what God has revealed in His teachings and laws.

- There is no problem with the material taught.

- There is no problem with the way the material was delivered.

And it's not just a matter of moral choices. Take this recent bridge collapse in Mexico:

Mexico City: Metro train bridge collapse leaves several dead | DW | 04.05.2021

23 dead (so far), dozens injured. Did God know how bad the bridge's condition was? If not, why not? If he did, why didn't he tell anyone?

Of course God knew, as God is all-knowing, but why should God tell anyone? God is not a man who can talk and tell people stuff. It is solely man’s responsibility to take care of the world that God has entrusted to our care. God bears no responsibility whasoever.

I meant that the idea that preventing someone from doing something makes the person a "robot" is nonsense. When someone intervenes to stop a murder, that doesn't make the would-be murderer a "robot" somehow.

God is not a human being so trying to compare God to a human being is the fallacy of false equivalency

False equivalence - Wikipedia

It is not God’s job to intervene in human affairs except when He sends Messengers. If God intervened that would take away the need for humans to be responsible and accountable for their own actions.

There have been lawsuits focused on that exact point. IIRC, they generally lose because the car manufacturer wasn't aware - and couldn't be expected to be aware - that the person who killed someone with their car would use the car that way on that particular day.

It won’t work to say that since God is all-knowing God knew the driver’s plans so God should have stopped the driver from driving too fast… Why should God do that when people are perfectly capable of doing that for themselves?

Because any decent person who knew what the driver was about to do and was able to stop him would do so. I'm only applying the same standard to God that I'd apply to a person.

You cannot apply the same standards to God because God is not a human being so trying to compare God to a human being is the fallacy of false equivalency

False equivalence - Wikipedia

Have you ever even thought what would happen if God intervened every time a person was about to do something bad? Not only would that be interfering with the free will that God gave those people, but in so doing it would, lead to abdication of personal responsibility.

Now... because we're limited, fallible humans, we often aren't aware of misfortune before it happens or aren't physically capable stopping it. You agreed that neither of limitations applies to God.

That’s just life in this material realm of existence. God created it that way so people could learn from their successes and failures. If God led everyone by the hand and stopped people from making mistakes people would never learn from their mistakes.

We all do - or ought to do - only what we can to make the world better, or at least stop it from getting worse. It's just that with a God, "what we can" is a heck of a lot.

Again, if God did for us what we can learn to do for ourselves then there would be no purpose to this life, except to eat drink and be merry - but God did not create us with that purpose.

God, if he were real, would need to intervene from time to time for the same reason a person would take a drunk's keys or call them a cab: basic morality and ethics.

God did intervene from time to time when He sent Messengers to guide humans to the straight path. God might also intervene from time to time to guide people who turn to Him in prayer or supplication.

 

[rational experiences]

indeed......

ask of God a favor.....He might do it
ask of the Devil.....He might do it

either way......your soul is forfeit

Are you a God to say human judged and soul gone?

No. Just thinking nastiness.

The movement of spirit gases on the face of the great deep space on a body water our heavens is a human thinking storytelling.

As you live inside of heavens.

Motion is rotation circular as O in spirals of G to O and O splitting DD back to OO continuing so you say oOooooo continues as soul form. How God creates God as the thinker.

Yet a human makes the statement.

If a human thinks an evil thought about God in heavens then you confess to wanting as a scientist thinking to have God soul removed. By intention what you know. Realise and believe.

How spiritual humans became awAre of evil intent by the thinker human espousing his words.

How we were warned by thesis status of human science intention to remove God process in natural heavens. Not owned just realised.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How does that make God responsible? God did not make the choices or commit the acts.

Because everyone is responsible for the consequences of their actions.

If things would be a particular way if you did an action and some other way if you didn't do the action, then the difference between those two outcomes is the consequence of the decision.

We're all responsible for the foreseeable consequences of out decisions, even if those consequences involve the actions of other people.

Why is God responsible if humans choose not to follow His teachings and laws?

Because if God existed, every factor that might cause a person not to follow God's teachings and laws would be within God's control.

- There is no problem with the human design as we all have a brain and free will and the capacity to understand what God has revealed in His teachings and laws.

- There is no problem with the material taught.

- There is no problem with the way the material was delivered.

That can't be right. If all that were true - and if God existed - then everyone would follow God's teachings. Try again.

Of course God knew, as God is all-knowing, but why should God tell anyone? God is not a man who can talk and tell people stuff. It is solely man’s responsibility to take care of the world that God has entrusted to our care. God bears no responsibility whasoever.

This seems like a very weak, limited God you believe in.

God is not a human being so trying to compare God to a human being is the fallacy of false equivalency

Humans are moral agents. God, if he were real, would be a moral agent.

It is not God’s job to intervene in human affairs except when He sends Messengers. If God intervened that would take away the need for humans to be responsible and accountable for their own actions.

It's the job of every moral agent to behave ethically.

You cannot apply the same standards to God because God is not a human being so trying to compare God to a human being is the fallacy of false equivalency

False equivalence - Wikipedia

I'm not suggesting that we should apply human standards to God. I'm saying that we should apply the standards of a moral agent to God.

Have you ever even thought what would happen if God intervened every time a person was about to do something bad? Not only would that be interfering with the free will that God gave those people, but in so doing it would, lead to abdication of personal responsibility.

If you really think that God couldn't fix the mess he created without making things worse, well... it seems like you have a very low opinion of your God.

That’s just life in this material realm of existence. God created it that way so people could learn from their successes and failures. If God led everyone by the hand and stopped people from making mistakes people would never learn from their mistakes.

The people who died when that bridge collapsed and the metro car slammed into the street below: what lesson did they learn from that failure?

Again, if God did for us what we can learn to do for ourselves then there would be no purpose to this life, except to eat drink and be merry - but God did not create us with that purpose.

Ah... so now you do think suffering was created by God, but created for a purpose?

What purpose?

God did intervene from time to time when He sent Messengers to guide humans to the straight path. God might also intervene from time to time to guide people who turn to Him in prayer or supplication.

I'm talking about intervening in terms of, say, stopping a bullet... or slowing down a plummeting metro car so that the people inside survive.

I bet if you had the power, you would have saved the people on that train, right? If you could have saved those two dozen lives, would you have said "nope! Not going to do anything. I'll stand by and watch as they die to teach somebody somewhere responsibility or something"?

 

[rational experiences]

Realism.

God O planet is a held O mass contained.

To an eternal spirit forced to come into gods creation the spirit heavens was a cause effect against the eternal.

Teaching the origin creator did wrong was and is the highest spirit form. Not God.

Where spirit came from ourself not any form mass of the heavens.

Heavens mass remains constant. Burning is the only state that removed the constant.

Human reason. God allowed human dominion over all things including God.

Otherwise God science would not exist as a satanic practice.

Converting a constant.

Unconditional eternal now just a memory.

Humans choose to obey or disobey unconditional love by free will choice.

History. God allowed free will. Before the exact same eternal body was mutual equal sharing.

Two humans.
One human male same self DNA. One life one man owned by multiple men.

Same twin of self multi times. You were equal. You were mutual. Self status. Self owned family group.

Now reason why one man no longer owner of the same DNA can murder his own spirit man of his brother?

Conscious advice as he no longer shares the equal self form. Became self destructive conscious whose word use confesses his intentions.

A warning.

Multi bible conscious awAre teachings giving warnings and reasons why.

In the life of God as a human not God you became self destructive

Our own spiritual eternal to human teaching.

Not used as relevant conscious awareness.

When the topic is just God it makes no conscious sense.

When you teach the bible proved that men science reasoned reactions in space. Attacked existing life as they lived counting the days of the attack a reaction until it ended.

No machine ever owned a six day reaction to equals THE reaction as an end.

Reaction owns a beginning and an end to quantify a reaction.

Imagine one day in the heavens and then six days reacting trying to remove the heavens. Pretty scary outcome for activating earth to equals science.