What is God responsible for?

[Trailblazer]

I want to offer a little background about the man named Kit that I am quoting below. He is a longtime friend I met on another forum over six years ago. He does not post on forums anymore but we keep in touch through e-mail. He was once a Christian, before he dropped out and became a nonbeliever. About a year and a half ago, because of something dramatic that happened in his life, he came to believe in God, but he has no religion.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I said: What kind of God would allow so much suffering in the world, not just me but all that is going on with Covid-19?..... Yes, I still believe in God and Baha'u'llah but the very last thing I need now is some Baha'i telling me that suffering is good for me or some Christian telling me that God is loving.

Kit said: I can't really get into that....but I do sympathize with what you are saying. We, and by that I mean ALL of us who "believe', are guilty of taking this God thing way too far as to how we figure God should be, and what God should do. We go and blame God for things which have nothing really to DO with God.

I agree with him that religious believers attribute far too much to God, saying God is doing this and that. Conversely, some people blame God for things that have nothing to do with God. How can we really know what God is doing or not doing? It really annoys be when religious people read scriptures and then draw conclusions about what God is doing based upon their limited human understanding of God. For example, some people of my religion will say that God is sending me tests and they are for my own benefit so I can grow spiritually, so I should be grateful for these tests.

Religious believers also assign attributes to God, such as loving, merciful and just. What is the evidence that God has these attributes other than their scriptures, and is that good enough to believe God has these attributes, when we see no evidence that demonstrates that God is loving, merciful, or just?

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I said: You just captured my EXACT thoughts and feelings and put them to paper… why indeed does this have to happen? I hate to bring God into this but if the shoe fits wear it, God. Death is part of God’s design.

Kit said: That's another flaw in a typical believer's way of thinking, that an all-knowing God actually has something as silly (for an all knowing God) as a PLAN. But like anything else, no one can tell them anything that contradicts their beliefs.

Then again, regarding "death" as unpleasant as it is, it IS a necessary 'evil', to prevent the perils of overpopulation. Just that God had nothing to actually DO with it. Biology has its OWN system of checks and balances...sometimes called "evolution"

I disagree that God has nothing to do with death, because God is responsible for the Creation, so even though humans and animals evolved, God is responsible for the process of evolution; so by design God decided that humans and animals would be mortal creatures. The fact that this might have been the only way it could have been since humans and animals have to die so new life can be born is irrelevant, as God is still responsible for the design and the suffering it causes when people and animals die.

But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot love God no matter how hard I try, although I am told by by other believers that if I do not love God there will be consequences, especially in the afterlife.

 

[Truthseeker]

Religious believers also assign attributes to God, such as loving, merciful and just. What is the evidence that God has these attributes other than their scriptures, and is that good enough to believe God has these attributes, when we see no evidence that demonstrates that God is loving, merciful, or just?

It's enough for those who believe those scriptures. It's not religious people that assign attributes to God, but Manifestations of God, which if you believe in Them through your own investigation provides evidence for this. However, if your own experience conflicts with this it makes you caught between the two realities, doesn't it? You can't believe, and can't not believe at the same time.

But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot love God no matter how hard I try, although I am told by by other believers that if I do not love God there will be consequences, especially in the afterlife.

Love for God can't be attained by effort I don't think. It is hard to love God while you are suffering a lot or see a lot of suffering in the world.

Also, how do you know when you love God? Baha'u'llah says this:

O Son of Man!

For everything there is a sign. The sign of love is fortitude under My decree and patience under My trials.

, “The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh” , a48

Perhaps you don't qualify here, or do you? I can't know one way or another. Do you think you have fortitude or patience? Perhaps I'm also jumping the gun and falling for the assumption that all bad events that happen to someone is a trial from God.

It is a confusing situation in this nether world of ours. It can be hard to sort through all of the sayings of God and all of our experiences and make it all fit.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's enough for those who believe those scriptures. It's not religious people that assign attributes to God, but Manifestations of God, which if you believe in Them through your own investigation provides evidence for this. However, if your own experience conflicts with this it makes you caught between the two realities, doesn't it? You can't believe, and can't not believe at the same time.

You hit the nail right on the head Duane. I cannot believe in those attributes that Manifestations assign to God because not only my own experience but what I see in the world conflicts with those attributes. How can a loving God who is also omnipotent allow so much suffering in the world? That is not logical, and for me logic trumps belief.

Love for God can't be attained by effort I don't think. It is hard to love God while you are suffering a lot or see a lot of suffering in the world.

You got it right again. I do not think any Baha'is I have ever known understand the depth of my suffering. How could they unless they had walked a mile in my moccasins?

Also, how do you know when you love God? Baha'u'llah says this:

O Son of Man!
For everything there is a sign. The sign of love is fortitude under My decree and patience under My trials.
, “The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh” , a48

Perhaps you don't qualify here, or do you? I can't know one way or another. Do you think you have fortitude or patience? Perhaps I'm also jumping the gun and falling for the assumption that all bad events that happen to someone is a trial from God.

1. I know I have fortitude and patience but I do not have love. I cannot love a God that allows so much suffering, not anymore than I would love a man who beat me day after day, year after year, or a man that saw me suffering and ignored my pain.

It says that is a "sign of love" is fortitude and patience, but that does not mean that there is love just because there is fortitude and patience, and it does not mean that love cannot be shown in other ways, such as in service. My husband asks why I serve God given how I feel about Him, and I tell Him that is just what I do because I consider it my duty, not out of love.
2. It says "under My trials." That could mean God sent the trials or that thses trailas are simply part and parcel of the material world of dust; but either way, God is responsible unless I caused my own suffering by a free will decision I made, and even if that is true, I made the best decision I could at the time so I cannot see that as my fault.

So let's say my having many cats that keep dying (despite my best efforts to get them the best vet care possible) is the cause of most of my suffering. What am I supposed to do about that? The cats are the only thing I love in this life, so I am between a rock and a hard place. I cannot be like you and enjoy studying the Writings alone or with other people. I have no interest in intellectual things anymore. I had my 15 plus years in college and that was enough for me. But even if I wanted to do something different I have a husband who does not want to do anything, so the cats are all I have, and it is not as if I can just snap my fingers and change my sordid life situation with the marriage and the three houses, so I have instead chosen to endure it instead of running away from it.

It is a confusing situation in this nether world of ours. It can be hard to sort through all of the sayings of God and all of our experiences and make it all fit.

Yes, it sure it hard to make scriptures align with life experiences when they are like mine. Thanks for understanding Duane and being so analytical. I can always count on you for that, and I hope you will always be my bff. Even though God is never there for me at least you are. How can God be there for anyone when He is not anywhere to be seen? Sure, people can imagine God is there to give them solace, when I feel God's presence I will let you know.

I want to die, does God even care? If He cared He could help me, or He can just watch me suffer and do nothing. Actions speak louder than words in scriptures. Some insensitive Baha'i will tell me my suffering is for my own benefit, but they are not walking in my moccasins. This is what religion can do to people. Aside from you, I get more compassion from the atheists on this forum.

 

[Koldo]

Religious believers also assign attributes to God, such as loving, merciful and just. What is the evidence that God has these attributes other than their scriptures, and is that good enough to believe God has these attributes, when we see no evidence that demonstrates that God is loving, merciful, or just?

If it is good enough to believe God exists, it ought to be good enough to believe in the attributes.

Take away all the attributes we can't prove, what's the difference between God and the Devil? None. How to worship something like this?

 

[Trailblazer]

If it is good enough to believe God exists, it ought to be good enough to believe in the attributes.

I am sorry but I do not see it that way. To say a God exists makes sense to me but to say God has attributes that we cannot even see reflected in the world makes no sense to me.

Take away all the attributes we can't prove, what's the difference between God and the Devil? None. How to worship something like this?

You raise a good point and that is why believers have to slap attributes onto God, so they can worship Him as a good God.
Sorry, no thanks. I have to see evidence of a good God in order to believe it exists and worship it.

 

[PureX]

If we can claim it's God's fault, then we can excuse ourselves for the fact that most human suffering is caused by humans, themselves. We blame God for not making the world a better place to live so we don't have to blame ourselves for that exact same 'crime'.

 

[Kenny]

I want to offer a little background about the man named Kit that I am quoting below. He is a longtime friend I met on another forum over six years ago. He does not post on forums anymore but we keep in touch through e-mail. He was once a Christian, before he dropped out and became a nonbeliever. About a year and a half ago, because of something dramatic that happened in his life, he came to believe in God, but he has no religion.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I said: What kind of God would allow so much suffering in the world, not just me but all that is going on with Covid-19?..... Yes, I still believe in God and Baha'u'llah but the very last thing I need now is some Baha'i telling me that suffering is good for me or some Christian telling me that God is loving.

Kit said: I can't really get into that....but I do sympathize with what you are saying. We, and by that I mean ALL of us who "believe', are guilty of taking this God thing way too far as to how we figure God should be, and what God should do. We go and blame God for things which have nothing really to DO with God.

I agree with him that religious believers attribute far too much to God, saying God is doing this and that. Conversely, some people blame God for things that have nothing to do with God. How can we really know what God is doing or not doing? It really annoys be when religious people read scriptures and then draw conclusions about what God is doing based upon their limited human understanding of God. For example, some people of my religion will say that God is sending me tests and they are for my own benefit so I can grow spiritually, so I should be grateful for these tests.

Religious believers also assign attributes to God, such as loving, merciful and just. What is the evidence that God has these attributes other than their scriptures, and is that good enough to believe God has these attributes, when we see no evidence that demonstrates that God is loving, merciful, or just?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I said: You just captured my EXACT thoughts and feelings and put them to paper… why indeed does this have to happen? I hate to bring God into this but if the shoe fits wear it, God. Death is part of God’s design.

Kit said: That's another flaw in a typical believer's way of thinking, that an all-knowing God actually has something as silly (for an all knowing God) as a PLAN. But like anything else, no one can tell them anything that contradicts their beliefs.

Then again, regarding "death" as unpleasant as it is, it IS a necessary 'evil', to prevent the perils of overpopulation. Just that God had nothing to actually DO with it. Biology has its OWN system of checks and balances...sometimes called "evolution"

I disagree that God has nothing to do with death, because God is responsible for the Creation, so even though humans and animals evolved, God is responsible for the process of evolution; so by design God decided that humans and animals would be mortal creatures. The fact that this might have been the only way it could have been since humans and animals have to die so new life can be born is irrelevant, as God is still responsible for the design and the suffering it causes when people and animals die.

But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot love God no matter how hard I try, although I am told by by other believers that if I do not love God there will be consequences, especially in the afterlife.

So, I'm not sure exactly where you want to go with this (it is an enormous amount of possibilities IMV)

Certainly there will be many viewpoints... maybe I will touch on one and then see where you want to go?

Is God merciful? I think so on multiple points. If I were to look at the sex slavery today, the lust for money at the expense of the backs off the poor, the children that are being raped and used, the senseless wars, (and that is a very very short list), to let man continue and not have his just recompense seems merciful to me.

But probably the apex of it, in light of the Christian view of the gospel, is that Jesus was on the Cross for humanity when at its worst said, "Father, forgive them..." and then the Father did. Sounds merciful to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, I'm not sure exactly where you want to go with this (it is an enormous amount of possibilities IMV)

Certainly there will be many viewpoints... maybe I will touch on one and then see where you want to go?

Is God merciful? I think so on multiple points. If I were to look at the sex slavery today, the lust for money at the expense of the backs off the poor, the children that are being raped and used, the senseless wars, (and that is a very very short list), to let man continue and not have his just recompense seems merciful to me.

Thanks for responding Ken. I consider you a truly sincere Christian, not to mention humble.

Are you referring to a just recompense in the afterlife? because certainly many people never receive a recompense in this life. Baha'is also believe that people will be recompensed for our suffering in the afterlife.....

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

....but what good does that do is in THIS life, unless believing that alone can be a solace?/

But probably the apex of it, in light of the Christian view of the gospel, is that Jesus was on the Cross for humanity when at its worst said, "Father, forgive them..." and then the Father did. Sounds merciful to me.

Do you mean that the Father forgave the Jews who crucified Jesus? Yes, I would consider that merciful, because that was such a heinous act.

 

[1213]

...But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. ...

I don’t think suffering is really from God, or that He is responsible of suffering. Suffering came because God was rejected. And God allowed that, because people wanted to know evil.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we can claim it's God's fault, then we can excuse ourselves for the fact that most human suffering is caused by humans, themselves. We blame God for not making the world a better place to live so we don't have to blame ourselves for that exact same 'crime'.

With all due respect, not all suffering is caused by human free will decisions that bring on suffering, so in my opinion, that is not a 'get out of jail free card' for God. I do tend to err on the side of logic and look at things as they really are rather than taking sides. Below is a short excerpt from a longer chapter that explains what I believe:

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?

Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will. Some Answered Questions, p. 248

To continue: 70: FREE WILL

And WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way since that is the nature of the material world that God created, and we are forced to endure for some 80 years or so, unless we choose to commit suicide.

 

[Kenny]

Thanks for responding Ken. I consider you a truly sincere Christian, not to mention humble.

That is very kind of you... but don't lift me up... it makes the fall hurt more. I know I am as human as the person next door.

Thanks for responding Ken. I consider you a truly sincere Christian, not to mention humble.

Are you referring to a just recompense in the afterlife? because certainly many people never receive a recompense in this life. Baha'is also believe that people will be recompensed for our suffering in the afterlife.....

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

....but what good does that do is in THIS life, unless believing that alone can be a solace?/

Not really about the afterlife (although it is included as you mentioned). As I see it the error comes when we think that eternity starts after we pass away when in reality our eternity started the day we accepted Jesus Christ. We have a purpose on earth.

The sustaining grace is with us even in this lifetime and is multiplied with peace the more knowledge we get about what God did through the Cross of Jesus Christ. On this earth, in our loneliness He becomes our constant companion, in our weakness He becomes our strength, in our lack He becomes our supply and the list can go on.

So, the light and life of God continues to operate in this earth through us. He continues to work His love and glory through our imperfect bodies as it was written:

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, “Let there be light in the darkness,” has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 We now have this light shining in our hearts, but we ourselves are like fragile clay jars containing this great treasure. This makes it clear that our great power is from God, not from ourselves. 8 We are pressed on every side by troubles, but we are not crushed. We are perplexed, but not driven to despair.

And this light and life is our gift to the rest of this world so that we are a blessing in "THIS life." The Abrahamic, "In blessing, thou shalt be a blessing".

Do you mean that the Father forgave the Jews who crucified Jesus? Yes, I would consider that merciful, because that was such a heinous act.

Not at all, it includes the Jews as well as the Gentiles. (Not to mention that it was the Romans who actually pinned him to the Cross).

He forgave humanity IMU.

Isaiah 53:Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;
it was our sorrows that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,
a punishment for his own sins!
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.

I could say "I crucified Him with my sins".

 

[PureX]

With all due respect, not all suffering is caused by human free will decisions that bring on suffering...

Of course not. But a great deal of it is. Not just as we try to inflict our own will and desires on everything and everyone around us, but also as we are outraged that the natural world, or other humans, would dare inflict their selfish will upon us! Don't forget that the perceived injustice of it all fuels our already existential suffering exponentially.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don’t think suffering is really from God, or that He is responsible of suffering. Suffering came because God was rejected. And God allowed that, because people wanted to know evil.

So you believe that all the suffering that people have goes back to Adam and Eve? What about people who do not reject God at all now, in the present age? Please read the post I just posted above and then tell me that we bring on all our own suffering. Clearly God created a material world in which people will suffer, some much more than others, and that is the real problem as I see it, the unequal distribution of suffering. I cannot see how that can be just or loving, yet God is supposed to be just and loving. I am just trying to work this out in my logical mind.

Some believers say to say that if only we have faith in God we will not suffer, but I consider that overly simplistic and it does not help people who cannot have that kind of faith, even of they try. If that was the magic bullet then there would be no mental health professionals. Moreover to say people suffer and it is their fault because they don't turn to God is insensitive and cruel, not to mention haughty, because it is as much as saying "I did it so why can't you?". Would Jesus ever say that?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I want to offer a little background about the man named Kit that I am quoting below. He is a longtime friend I met on another forum over six years ago. He does not post on forums anymore but we keep in touch through e-mail. He was once a Christian, before he dropped out and became a nonbeliever. About a year and a half ago, because of something dramatic that happened in his life, he came to believe in God, but he has no religion.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I said: What kind of God would allow so much suffering in the world, not just me but all that is going on with Covid-19?..... Yes, I still believe in God and Baha'u'llah but the very last thing I need now is some Baha'i telling me that suffering is good for me or some Christian telling me that God is loving.

Kit said: I can't really get into that....but I do sympathize with what you are saying. We, and by that I mean ALL of us who "believe', are guilty of taking this God thing way too far as to how we figure God should be, and what God should do. We go and blame God for things which have nothing really to DO with God.

I agree with him that religious believers attribute far too much to God, saying God is doing this and that. Conversely, some people blame God for things that have nothing to do with God. How can we really know what God is doing or not doing? It really annoys be when religious people read scriptures and then draw conclusions about what God is doing based upon their limited human understanding of God. For example, some people of my religion will say that God is sending me tests and they are for my own benefit so I can grow spiritually, so I should be grateful for these tests.

Religious believers also assign attributes to God, such as loving, merciful and just. What is the evidence that God has these attributes other than their scriptures, and is that good enough to believe God has these attributes, when we see no evidence that demonstrates that God is loving, merciful, or just?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I said: You just captured my EXACT thoughts and feelings and put them to paper… why indeed does this have to happen? I hate to bring God into this but if the shoe fits wear it, God. Death is part of God’s design.

Kit said: That's another flaw in a typical believer's way of thinking, that an all-knowing God actually has something as silly (for an all knowing God) as a PLAN. But like anything else, no one can tell them anything that contradicts their beliefs.

Then again, regarding "death" as unpleasant as it is, it IS a necessary 'evil', to prevent the perils of overpopulation. Just that God had nothing to actually DO with it. Biology has its OWN system of checks and balances...sometimes called "evolution"

I disagree that God has nothing to do with death, because God is responsible for the Creation, so even though humans and animals evolved, God is responsible for the process of evolution; so by design God decided that humans and animals would be mortal creatures. The fact that this might have been the only way it could have been since humans and animals have to die so new life can be born is irrelevant, as God is still responsible for the design and the suffering it causes when people and animals die.

But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot love God no matter how hard I try, although I am told by by other believers that if I do not love God there will be consequences, especially in the afterlife.

I still maintain that it takes a God to know a God.
Those qualities are exclusively human in origin so it makes sense that its not God but other people that exclusivly assume the responsibility.

 

[osgart]

We sit just beyond God's reach!

Or we are locked in a battle between good and evil! For some just reason we must be foot soldiers in it.

All powerful is perhaps an illusion?

I'd honestly like to know how this all reconciles with all mighty God.

I think that some believer's come from rosey worlds where everything has structure, and law. And the one's who sacrifice do it by freedom of their own decision.

The believers who escape evil victimization often feel that God pulled them out of it.

But how many believer's have no victory, and live totally tragic lives?

Evidence that God's hands or spirit is in the world I cannot find and news stories can be quite horrific.

Someone once told me we have to see the depths of the valley before we ever can appreciate the mountain top. And neither death, nor torture compares to the glory received from those that love God. How often does this play out, and is it true?

 

[PureX]

We sit just beyond God's reach!

Or we are locked in a battle between good and evil! For some just reason we must be foot soldiers in it.

All powerful is perhaps an illusion?

I'd honestly like to know how this all reconciles with all mighty God.

I think that some believer's come from rosey worlds where everything has structure, and law. And the one's who sacrifice do it by freedom of their own decision.

The believers who escape evil victimization often feel that God pulled them out of it.

But how many believer's have no victory, and live totally tragic lives?

Evidence that God's hands or spirit is in the world I cannot find and news stories can be quite horrific.

Someone once told me we have to see the depths of the valley before we ever can appreciate the mountain top. And neither death, nor torture compares to the glory received from those that love God. How often does this play out, and is it true?

That the universe is a benevolent place seems obvious to me, as I am still here. And even though my time here is limited, and I will one day cease to exist, my loss will make matter, energy, and space available for yet another form, or a myriad of existential forms. Because everything that can exist, is being given it's opportunity to do so, even if only briefly. So again, all I see in this is benevolence.

I CHOOSE to see this all as benevolence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course not. But a great deal of it is. Not just as we try to inflict our our own will and desires on everything and everyone around us, but also as we are outraged that the natural world, or other humans, would dare inflict their selfish will upon us!

Yes, if people try to control everything and everyone they are only bringing on their own suffering, because we cannot and should not try to control every situation or other people, although I am not into blaming people because human psychology is very complex and there are some issues people have that cannot be resolved, even if people are aware of them and struggle to resolve them.

Don't forget that the perceived injustice of it all fuels our already existential suffering exponentially.

Perhaps that is true, but not acknowledging what we see and not expressing how we think and feel only drives the pain deeper. I think that trying to work it out in our mind is fruitful, otherwise it just festers beneath the surface.[/QUOTE]

 

[PureX]

Yes, if people try to control everything and everyone they are only bringing on their own suffering, because we cannot and should not try to control every situation or other people, although I am not into blaming people because human psychology is very complex and there are some issues people have that cannot be resolved, even if people are aware of them and struggle to resolve them.

Perhaps that is true, but not acknowledging what we see and not expressing how we think and feel only drives the pain deeper. I think that trying to work it out in our mind is fruitful, otherwise it just festers beneath the surface.

Another healing service that "God" provides us.

I have heard many a rant and rail in my day, against the gods. And much therapy was achieved.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that some believer's come from rosey worlds where everything has structure, and law. And the one's who sacrifice do it by freedom of their own decision.

The believers who escape evil victimization often feel that God pulled them out of it.

Those believers obviously had/have a very different life experience than some of us have had, so they cannot really understand our experience. They have everything worked out in their mind and woe betide anyone who disagrees with them. Clearly, life is not fair, all we have to do is look around to figure that out.

But how many believer's have no victory, and live totally tragic lives?

Evidence that God's hands or spirit is in the world I cannot find and news stories can be quite horrific.

Nor can I find it osgart, so I write it off to a belief people want to have. As my academic background is psychology I analyze human behavior a lot..

Someone once told me we have to see the depths of the valley before we ever can appreciate the mountain top. And neither death, nor torture compares to the glory received from those that love God. How often does this play out, and is it true?

As for loving God, I explained my take on that in the OP. Maybe it is the solution, but it is not something I can will myself to do.

I have seen the depths of the valley many times over, but I am still waiting for that mountain top. I still believe I will see it after I die and cross over to the next life, but I am not so sure I will ever see it in this life.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

 

[Trailblazer]

That is very kind of you... but don't lift me up... it makes the fall hurt more. I know I am as human as the person next door.

We all are, but all humans are not the same. Some are more meek and humble.

Not really about the afterlife (although it is included as you mentioned). As I see it the error comes when we think that eternity starts after we pass away when in reality our eternity started the day we accepted Jesus Christ. We have a purpose on earth.

I suppose I could say the same about my accepting Baha'u'llah, which of course also meant I had to accept Jesus, although I did not know anything about Him back then; but thanks to all the wonderful Christians I have met on forums I know a lot more now, and of course that got me to start reading the Bible, which I never read till about eight years ago. I was not raised in any religion or believing in God, nor did I have much interest in religion for most of my life, a long story.

The sustaining grace is with us even in this lifetime and is multiplied with peace the more knowledge we get about what God did through the Cross of Jesus Christ. On this earth, in our loneliness He becomes our constant companion, in our weakness He becomes our strength, in our lack He becomes our supply and the list can go on.

I often envy Christians and wish I could have that kind of faith, so I listen to Christian music all day long hoping it might rub off on me. It is not that Baha'is do not have the same kind of faith in God as Christians do, most of them do, that is my particular problem with which I struggle.

Not at all, it includes the Jews as well as the Gentiles. (Not to mention that it was the Romans who actually pinned him to the Cross).

He forgave humanity IMU.

Okay, thanks for that clarification Ken, so God forgave them for what they did to Jesus.