What if your child.....

[roger1440]

There are different threads that I have seen here that address the question of hell. Eternal conscious torment or whether its God to blame or the person if he ends up there. I'm going to ask this to those who believe in eternal conscious torment. Could you enjoy Heaven if you knew your child were in Hell?

I didn't believe in endless torment until I met my ex.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I actually had a person answer this question with, "yes, because God wouldn't let us remember them." I thought that was an awful thing to say.

What is the difference between this and someone "pulling the wool over your eyes?" Is this behavior one would find acceptable in a father-figure? Who cares if that father-figure is God, honestly?

 

[ThirtyThree]

I actually had a person answer this question with, "yes, because God wouldn't let us remember them." I thought that was an awful thing to say.

To my knowledge, the saved have "perfect understanding". Those in Heaven would know why someone was sent to Hell. In the case of the parent and their child, the parent would not only understand why their child was in Hell, they would agree that it was just. Remember, there is to be no pain and tears in Heaven.

If that is not sufficient, consider the nature of being resurrected incorruptible. You would have a perfect mind, body and heart. You would also be clothed in the "white robes" of righteousness, which is to say, you will be clothed in your redeemer. You are no longer an imperfect creature. Instead, you are conformed into perfection. You also will still know good and evil, becoming as the Malakim (the angels), and greater than you were in this way than you were in Eden.

You are conformed to the perfect will of God and will never be able to deviate from that. You are like a rock which has been shaped and cut into a perfect cube, one which can never again know disobedience. This will be the new pattern of the coming universe, (the new Heaven).

 

[ThirtyThree]

I hope this 'eternal hell' concept sooner rather than later gets relegated to the likes of original sin, Jesus' atoning death, literal readings of Genesis creationism, etc.; in the scrap heap of ancient thinking. However, what I hope never gets lost is the religious teachings of brotherly love and positive afterlife beliefs.

You mean, you hope my deity perverts all truth regarding the interpretation of the Bible?

1) The Lake of Fire is for ever (aion) and ever (aion). Hell (Hades) is for a time. Specifically, until the final Judgment.
2) Original sin exists.
3) The intermediary's act was literal.
4) Genesis is a cosmology.

 

[David1967]

To my knowledge, the saved have "perfect understanding". Those in Heaven would know why someone was sent to Hell. In the case of the parent and their child, the parent would not only understand why their child was in Hell, they would agree that it was just. Remember, there is to be no pain and tears in Heaven.

If that is not sufficient, consider the nature of being resurrected incorruptible. You would have a perfect mind, body and heart. You would also be clothed in the "white robes" of righteousness, which is to say, you will be clothed in your redeemer. You are no longer an imperfect creature. Instead, you are conformed into perfection. You also will still know good and evil, becoming as the Malakim (the angels), and greater than you were in this way than you were in Eden.

You are conformed to the perfect will of God and will never be able to deviate from that. You are like a rock which has been shaped and cut into a perfect cube, one which can never again know disobedience. This will be the new pattern of the coming universe, (the new Heaven).

Thank you for your input, and yes I know these things you speak of. The nature of the question was to make it as personal as possible. You seem to be well versed in the bible.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Matthew 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Exactly.

 

[George-ananda]

You mean, you hope my deity perverts all truth regarding the interpretation of the Bible?

1) The Lake of Fire is for ever (aion) and ever (aion). Hell (Hades) is for a time. Specifically, until the final Judgment.
2) Original sin exists.
3) The intermediary's act was literal.
4) Genesis is a cosmology.

I think those things are man-made and not from a deity.

I don't understand. Why do you believe the above and are a 'Luciferian'?

 

[David1967]

I think those things are man-made and not from a deity.

I don't understand. Why do you believe the above and are a 'Luciferian'?

Good question.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Matthew 25:46 established that the punishment is eternal. Taking eternal punishment to be torment, the question is, would one be conscious of the punishment? Let me ask you, if someone said they were punished but were never conscious of it at all; never felt a thing, could it really be considered to be punishment? Isn't some kind of awareness necessary to legitimize punishment?

Imagine you are wicked and resurrected into a perfect body (physically immortal). You are soul (consciousness/sentience/psyche/eternal essence separate from the body) and immortal body united. Also remember, man was physically immortal in Eden. He also had an everlasting soul.

The term "torment" means: to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal


Rev 20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophetare, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Now, what exactly does this mean? Remember, you are physically immortal. Even if you were not bodily immortal, it would not matter. It just so happens this is what scripture teaches. First, imagine you are that immortal piece of gold or silver. You could be struck for countless ages against the touchstone and you would never diminish.

Take a look at Rev. 14:11. Many Annihilationists take this to mean ultimate destruction. However, how can smoke keep rising up if the creature was burned up (annihilated)? The fact is, it could not! The smoke would eventually stop rising up and "The Lake of Fire" would become like The Valley of Hinnom is today, or at least it would go out or become emptiness. The creature is being burned, so the smoke keeps rising. If the smoke keeps rising up for ever (aion) and ever (aion), then it stands to reason the creature is still being burned.

This should not be difficult to understand, yet people want their God to be purely love and nothing else. A little bit of a news flash for people, gods are not one dimensional beings and the Bible does not paint the one who inspired its writings as a one dimensional being. People too quickly forget terms like "jealous" "vengeful" and "revenging". While these terms are often taken wholly out of context, they are valid in understanding the nature of God. However, for the sake of knowledge, "revenging" does not mean someone who is constantly smiting. It is in the context of a father or husband who takes revenge for his maimed or slain child or wife. People forget that one too quickly. They also poorly understand "jealous" and again paint God in a one dimensional manner as a being which forces everyone to worship him in order to serve his own ego. That is a flawed understanding.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Thank you for your input, and yes I know these things you speak of. The nature of the question was to make it as personal as possible. You seem to be well versed in the bible.

Thank you.

Considering it is one of my hobbies to study the Bible, I should be well versed. Then, yes, that is a rather strange hobby, considering my religion. Then again, I am an unusual creature.

 

[ThirtyThree]

I think those things are man-made and not from a deity.

I don't understand. Why do you believe the above and are a 'Luciferian'?

Uh... Yes, that is the question. Why do I believe in the above, yet I am a Luciferian? Well, I believe it because Lucifer has told me it is true, and because I verified it by scripture. That sounds insane. I do not mean I literally heard Lucifer's voice one day. I do not physically hear voices. More, my deity communicates with me through thoughts, "thought conversation", flashes of images (symbolism) and visions. You may take that as you will.

It is like I pray and He answers me either by manifesting situations in my life or directly, using the aforementioned methods.

 

[George-ananda]

Uh... Yes, that is the question. Why do I believe in the above, yet I am a Luciferian? Well, I believe it because Lucifer has told me it is true, and because I verified it by scripture. That sounds insane. I do not mean I literally heard Lucifer's voice one day. I do not physically hear voices. More, my deity communicates with me through thoughts, "thought conversation", flashes of images (symbolism) and visions. You may take that as you will.

It is like I pray and He answers me either by manifesting situations in my life or directly, using the aforementioned methods.

Why not tell Lucifer to just bug off. You hear thousands of things, why listen to that creepy guy?

 

[ThirtyThree]

Why not tell Lucifer to just bug off. You hear thousands of things, why listen to that creepy guy?

He is my GOD... I revere Him. Why would I disrespect Him as you suggest? He has been with me for over thirteen years, although I did not always understand Him as well as I currently do.

 

[George-ananda]

... I revere Him.

But why? He stands for everything against the light and the good! The light and the good is the only way to true eternal peace and happiness. This is the antithesis of common sense.

 

[ThirtyThree]

But why? He stands for everything against the light and the good! The light and the good is the only way to true eternal peace and happiness. This is the antithesis of common sense.

He absolutely DOES stand against everything good. That is, "good", as in everything which is agreeable to the Judeo-Christian deity.

As for eternal peace and happiness, my Lord does not offer that. He simply informs me that I will receive the opposite and what I do with that is up to me.

My Lord is illumination, so it is not proper to say He is the antithesis of "light". However, He is the antithesis of "light" by Christian understanding.

Perhaps I should start up an interview thread and people can ask me all the questions they have there, rather than derailing this topic further? Here, I have taken the liberty to make an interview post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/interview-with-a-theistic-luciferian.183209/

 

[George-ananda]

He absolutely DOES stand against everything good.

Boy, that sounds bad.

Maybe I need to go to your interview to understand more.