What if I can't be saved?

[ashai]

I don't think you see what I'm getting at. People who are sent to Hell WANT to be there. They want to be separated from him forever. They don't want anything to do with him. What's he supposed to do with people who don't want to hang out with him? Imagine being stuck in a room 24/7 for 30 days with someone whom you absolutley despised. He's the shining star of the room and he gets everyones attention. And you HATE him. Now imagine spending eternity in that room. If you don't want to be there then do you think that God is going to force you to stay? No. Of course not. He honors that persons choice.

Ushta Mr T

The point is that God is not us, bear with me for a sec. The claim of historical Christian theology, is that He is all powerful and all knowing, (among other things). By definition then:
He ought to be able not to have some of his beloved creatures be stranged from him, specially, for eternity
He knows before he creates them that most of his creatures will, have to be separated from him

Then the question becomes a( why he does not exercise his all power in the first instance and b( why does he create those that are going to suffer

That also becomes a point to take into consideration. All Hell punishment, whether you literally believe its hell fire or you believe is eternal separation, is defined as punishment and suffering over and over, in the NT,therefore your supposition above seems highly unlikely.

Besides, when one is dead and his soul now perceives the Glory of God (As Paul said 'now we perceive ... blurred ... but when the complete comes we shall know as we are known' , I am paraphrasing here its I do not remember the passage literally , but it is from 1 Cor 13) he would realize his mistake.

To put it in another way, no one who has experienced the presence of God would ever not want to be with him. Therefore these are unbelievers they have no faith and no inclination to look for god, they follow what we, Zoroastrians, call a senseless mind, a bad mentality. They are ignorant of the reality of the existence of the Creator.

But, my friend after, they are dead they cannot possibly doubt or be ignorant any more, so how can they choose to be away from the Creator when they know he exists? I do not know about your spiritual experiences, I do imagine though that you now know what you did not know before , namely, that the only meaningful happy and fulfilled life; is the one in the presence and communion with the Creator.

Before, I venture, you did not know this, now that you know it, will you ever willfuly choose to be forever separated from it? I bet you would never make that choice. Neither would any one else if they knew and experienced the presence of the Creator. That means that when the 'wicked' ( mind you I am just using the word but I do not believe in wickedness I believe in spiritual ignorance) realize they were wrong and experience the presence of the Creator , they too would not ever willingly choose to forsake it forever.:bow:

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

That seems to work on the surface..but consider this:
If God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and if we agree that we all have our beginning in God...how is it possible that we shall not, in the end, have our end in God, too?

If some choose to be separated from God, how does that work? If God is the end, will not ultimate separation from God create a new end, with the separated one as the object of that end? Wouldn't that supplant God as the end, with the individual as the end?

If God, expressed in Alpha and Omega is the center of the universe, from whom all things come, and to whom all things shall return, how is it possible that any finite human will be able to break out of that paradigm? Surely the ulimate end in God is as compelling as the ultimate beginning in God?

Hey Sojourner, Ushta

While we do not agree on the particulars amd certainly I see no need for salvation but for learning, I find your post which I quote above .. RIGHT ON!!:clap :clap :clap :clap

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[Steve]

Yes. God's love makes hell obsolete.

You make a joke of Christs many warnings about hell, Do you suppose Christ was confused and wrong and was warning about something that noone will ever experience?
Jesus spoke more about hell then he did about heaven, he warned passionatley about its reality.

I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Luke 12:4-5

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. Matthew 18:9

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mathew 7:13-14

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18
​

 

[ashai]

I am saved because I know who I am. God created me in His image therefore He gave me all that He is. He saved me from myself- my thoughts, my ideas of how life should be, my ways, my answers. my,my,my.... I have nothing that you don't have. On the day of pentecost He poured out His spirit upon all flesh-no one excluded. Jesus came to make all this come to pass and He finished the work that He started. Therefore we are a finished product of God. We just haven't come to the knowledge and understanding of who we are. As He reveals Himself within us we are saved from ourselves. This world is of no threat spiritually. There is nothing that man can do to keep us from fulfilling our purpose in God.

Ushta godlovesu2

The point is that if we are all saved the Bible (as interpreted by the historical theology) has gone on about judgment, condemnation, sin, punishmemnt , eternal torment, hell etc, way too long and for no reason.

The logical answer is that a provision, for salvation has been made (according to the Bible) but we are not all saved , at least not yet.

However the theology is flawed because, the same god that is love according to it , also made provision to punish his beloved and in the most cruel of ways. Who judges, who condemns , who punishes, who made hell/separation, who torments eternally? The answer to all of the above in the historical Christian/Islamic theology, is ... God

But is not like poor god had no choice, because the same theology posits him as having all power, which would man that he would have the power to convince all to believe and be saved. Yet he does not Why?

The same theology also presents God as creator and omniscient, placing him in the unsubstainable position ( if He is love, as well) of knowingly creating creatures bound for hell, eternal torment and, or, separation.

Pardon me, but I believe you are only seeing one part of the picture here

So when we ask what are being saved from, its not us, for we have been given free choice, and thus responsibility, a mind, and thus logic if not wisdom, and a conscience to indicate to us that somethging is wrong.

The answer of the traditional Christian theology leads to the conclusion that we are saved from God or, specifically, rom his wrath and punishment. This is unacceptable if we presume that god is love or if we have experienced his love.

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

Remember, Hell doesn't appear in the OT. Hell is a hellenistic idea. And maybe Satan is a literary construct. Every good story needs a pariah...
In dualist thinking, you need evil to balance good. You need hell to balance heaven. The Hebrews didn't need hell, or Satan, because the Hebrews weren't dualistic.

Ushta Guys

Hell and Satan were borrowed from the Latter or Younger Avesta, the religious book of latter Zoroastrians which was heterodox from Zarathushtra's view point. Heck Jesus even calls Satan Beelzebub which means Lord of the Flies , one of the apellations of Angrah Mainyu in the Latter Avesta's heterodox religion

Both these concepts and many others were present in the Younger Avesta at least 7 Centuries before the NT. The Persians ruled the Jews for over 200 years, and the Qumram sect was as much Zoroastrian as Jewish. Indeed the first messiah as savior is Cyrus I The King of Kings:bow:

Hades, the Hellenistic hell, was like Sheol a placce were all the dead lived a shadow life.

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

Ushta sreve

And, may I ask, how's the God you described depicting hell, Love?

Certainly you understand that the historical theology presents him as changeless and thus makes him as yahwe equal to him as Jesus/Father/Holy Spirit, right?

Please answer me these two and we will go from there

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[sojourner]

Ushta Sojourner

The question, again , is saved from what? If its from error , not only where we created capable and prone to err but there are more constructive ways to deal with error than torment.

If it is from punishment , who set up puninishment? If it is from Hell who made hell? See the theology is flawed and specially so when it posits God as love who then condemns his beloved to torture for eternity

Ushta Te
Ashai

As I understand it, saved from ourselves. Saved from the state of separation from God that we put ourselves into.

 

[sojourner]

You make a joke of Christs many warnings about hell, Do you suppose Christ was confused and wrong and was warning about something that noone will ever experience?
Jesus spoke more about hell then he did about heaven, he warned passionatley about its reality.

I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Luke 12:4-5

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. Matthew 18:9

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mathew 7:13-14

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18
​

You make a joke of God's unbounded and unconditional love for us.
Do you suppose that, just maybe, Jesus' references to punishment were written by a human from a certain theological viewpoint? Do you suppose that Maybe Jesus' statements were edited to give them a certain slant that he never intended?

You need to realize that, just because the Bible says Jesus said something, doesn't necessarily mean that he said it 1) in the way it was written, or 2) said it at all. The Bible is neither a dictophone for Jesus, nor is it infallible.

Or, perhaps Jesus was speaking, not literalistically, but metaphorically. Maybe these statements were more poetic in nature. All I know is, the passages dealing with fear and destruction are incongruent with the nature of God, which is love.

 

[Mister_T]

I see where you guys are coming from, but you can't deny the existence of Satan. Like I stated earlier, there is just as much evidence for Satan as there is for God. The evidence is still with us today. Demon possesions are a good example.

Remember, Hell doesn't appear in the OT. Hell is a hellenistic idea. And maybe Satan is a literary construct. Every good story needs a pariah...
In dualist thinking, you need evil to balance good. You need hell to balance heaven. The Hebrews didn't need hell, or Satan, because the Hebrews weren't dualistic.

Satan WAS in the OT souljourner (Job anyone?) and so WAS Hell http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/hell.html

If everyone went straight to Heaven, then this very conversation would be taking place there because there would be no purpose for this life. You have a to decide which path you want to take. You have to decide whose side you want to be on. If God decided for you, then that would contradict his gift of free will. I use this as an example when trying to explain the relationship of God and Satan, Heaven and Hell: Satan made a bet with God that people don't need him to be happy. Satan said "I will show them the way. I'll show you that they can hate you completley and still be happy. I will show them that they don't need you to find fullfillment. I'll show you they can be like me". God said "You're on".


I believe this is a good example of the selfish and self centered type of mindset that people in Hell have: I recall a story about a little 6 year old boy who was using a restroom at the beach. While the boy was in the stall a young man in his early 20's, approached the kid while he was in the stall and slit his throat. The boy died and the man was captured. They interviewed this man and they asked him why he brutally killed an innocent 6 year old boy. The man said this "Because I love it. And I'd do it again" Children are a shining example of the love of God and his kind, pure and loving nature. Children are purest human image of God (there is reference to this in the Bible). This man brutally took the life of a child. The most innocent and pure group of the of the human race. I'm not God and I'm in no position to judge, but I will make an exception for sake of argument and I would say this is a safe bet that this piece of sh*t does not love God and will never love God. HOW COULD YOU EVEN FATHOM DOING SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO A CHILD............this is why Hell exists. And I'm pretty sure he'll be going there.

Hell is for evil and wicked people. People who would reject God are people who are selfish and self-centered to the most extreme. They don't care about others. They don't care if they hurt other people or how they make people feel. All they care about is fullfilling their own selfish pleasures and desires. All they care about is getting that "fix"; getting their needs met. Even if it is at the expense of other people's pain and discomfort.

 

[Mister_T]

He ought to be able not to have some of his beloved creatures be stranged from him, specially, for eternity
He knows before he creates them that most of his creatures will, have to be separated from him

Then the question becomes a( why he does not exercise his all power in the first instance and b( why does he create those that are going to suffer

Read my post above about the God Satan bet. The reason he does not do the things you mentioned is because it messes with free will. God would just be satisfying his need.We would just be robots programmed to love. It would not be REAL, GENUINE love. Just like you want your spouse to love you because he/she REALLY loves you. Not because he/she is forced to. Then he/she's just a robot. Let's say you're rich and your're married, and you know that the only reason that your spouse married you was because you have lot's of money. Your spouse does not love you as a person. Your spouse loves your money. Would you still keep your spouse? Switch that around: You=God, money= Heaven. Maybe you should also read my earlier post about applying the relationship concept with your significant other to your relationship with God.

 

[Ormiston]

Hell is for evil and wicked people. People who would reject God are people who are selfish and self-centered. They don't care about others. They don't care if they hurt other people or how they make people feel. All they care about is fullfilling their own selfish pleasures and desires. All they care about is getting that "fix"; getting their needs met. Even if it is at the expense of other people's pain and discomfort.

How can you say this? I'm just sitting here shaking my head and wondering just how badly I should be insulted (not that bad in all honesty, but I should be). For starters, if God exists he has done a poor job of spreading the knowledge of what exactly he wants. Stone tablets and dusty old books are almost laughable when it comes to credibility. He's left it up to men to spread his messages and we all know how unrealiable we are. The bible goes to great lengths to make that clear. The very concept of our faith influencing our afterlives is appalling to me. If God is supposed to be our universal parent, he needs to take a class. My parents never asked the paperboy to explain the rules of the house to us and then dissappeared to let us figure the rest out. Selfish? Self-centered? Wow. Like I said earlier in the thread, you must be lucky to see the Obvious Nature of God's wishes, cause I don't.

 

[Mister_T]

How can you say this? I'm just sitting here shaking my head and wondering just how badly I should be insulted (not that bad in all honesty, but I should be). For starters, if God exists he has done a poor job of spreading the knowledge of what exactly he wants. Stone tablets and dusty old books are almost laughable when it comes to credibility. He's left it up to men to spread his messages and we all know how unrealiable we are. The bible goes to great lengths to make that clear. The very concept of our faith influencing our afterlives is appalling to me. If God is supposed to be our universal parent, he needs to take a class. My parents never asked the paperboy to explain the rules of the house to us and then dissappeared to let us figure the rest out. Selfish? Self-centered? Wow. Like I said earlier in the thread, you must be lucky to see the Obvious Nature of God's wishes, cause I don't.

WOW INDEED! Um, did you even bother reading the bold text after that? Or did you just zero in on that part of my post? What the f#@! would you label a freakin child killer?! Those are the type of people that reject God. It's for that type of person that hell exists. Would you let that guy into Heaven?!

 

[Ormiston]

WOW INDEED! Um, did you even bother reading the bold text after that? Or did you just zero in on that part of my post? *** would you label a freakin child killer?!

I read the whole post a few times and I am focused on this one part. Explain this part of the post to me (maybe I'm misunderstanding it): "People who would reject God are people who are selfish and self-centered." Because I'm reading it as "It is selfish and self-centered to reject God." That's where I have a problem, not with labeling child killers as evil or any other label. I reject God, but I don't kill children.

 

[Mister_T]

I read the whole post a few times and I am focused on this one part. Explain this part of the post to me (maybe I'm misunderstanding it): "People who would reject God are people who are selfish and self-centered." Because I'm reading it as "It is selfish and self-centered to reject God." That's where I have a problem, not with labeling child killers as evil or any other label. I reject God, but I don't kill children.

Yes I was just re-reading it myself and I realized that what I wrote could be taken 2 different ways. And I did not mean that it is selfish and self-centered to reject God. I was saying that the selfishness and self-centered mindset of the child killer is the type of mentallity that people who are sent to Hell have. My apologies for not being clear. I'll have to edit that.:slap:

 

[Ormiston]

Yes I was just re-reading it myself and I realized that what I wrote could be taken 2 different ways. And I did not mean that it is selfish and self-centered to reject God. I was saying that the selfishness and self-centered mindset of the child killer is the type of mentallity that people who are sent to Hell have. My apologies for not being clear. I'll have to edit that.:slap:

Happens . Actually, it seems to happen with many of my posts too.

Unfortunately, even though you didn't mean any disrespect, the message I take from the bible is the same message that you wrote accidentally so I stand by my feelings as they pertain to Christianity. Any comments?

 

[Steve]

You make a joke of God's unbounded and unconditional love for us.

Tell me where do you get this idea that Gods love is unbounded and unconditional to the point where it makes Jesus wrong about his warnings about hell?

Do you suppose that, just maybe, Jesus' references to punishment were written by a human from a certain theological viewpoint?

Yes i do suppose that, thats what i believe - and this theology found in the Bible is what i believe is true. That biblical "certain theological viewpoint" is the one you keep rejecting thats the whole point.

Do you suppose that Maybe Jesus' statements were edited to give them a certain slant that he never intended?

You need to realize that, just because the Bible says Jesus said something, doesn't necessarily mean that he said it 1) in the way it was written, or 2) said it at all. The Bible is neither a dictophone for Jesus, nor is it infallible.

Again this just shows that you do not believe the bible, in your quote above you are trying to explain why the bible does not agree with what you believe. Again if you dont believe the bible your not alone on this forum, but when you try and say that your pet theology is Christs and the Apostles its just clearly not true.

Or, perhaps Jesus was speaking, not literalistically, but metaphorically. Maybe these statements were more poetic in nature. All I know is, the passages dealing with fear and destruction are incongruent with the nature of God, which is love.

How do you know about the nature of God? All you know about Gods nature is what you are willing to accept, you like the bible when it talks abaout Gods love and grace but you just reject and ignore when it talks about his holiness, punishment of sin (hell), righteousness etc. You have just created a God to suit yourself and what you want - its called idolatory.
Again its obvious you do not believe in the God of the Bible that Christ and the Apostles taught. You just believe what you want to believe and if the Bible agrees with you then you like it if it clearly dissagrees with you then you just say its wrong or has been edited etc...
You have your own little pet theology, and like it when the bible agrees thats it - you do not however believe in the God clearly discribed in the Bible so stop pretending you do.

 

[Mister_T]

Happens . Actually, it seems to happen with many of my posts too.

Unfortunately, even though you didn't mean any disrespect, the message I take from the bible is the same message that you wrote accidentally so I stand by my feelings as they pertain to Christianity. Any comments?

I could definitley see how you would get that impression. All I can tell you is that God is good. And I would suggest that you search for that truth and not let anything or anyone become a stumbling block to you while searching.

 

[ashai]

As I understand it, saved from ourselves. Saved from the state of separation from God that we put ourselves into.

Ushta sojourner

Well the questions is by whom and how are we 'saved' not that I agree with the concept of Salvation. In christian theology is through Christ. But, frankly, even without adressing the objections of my theology to that, the idea that the innocent die for the guilty, is abhorent to me and goes against god's justice, in my opinion.:bow:

The how, is also problematic, lets just say that its actions and conviction both, or as James put it: ' faith without works is dead'

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

Ushta Mr T

To posit a Satan as per the NT means that the all knowing God made a creature which he knew would rebell and cause 'the fall' of untold billions. More over since he is all powerful God certainly could have found a way not to create Satan. in other words, it goes against god's supposed attributes that he would create such a creature

To solve this we must posit one or more of these

Either Satan is a creation of Christian theology
God is not All Knowing
God is not All Powerful
God is not loving
The concept of satan as an opposer of God was borrowed by Christian theology (certainly I fail to see it in the OT)

Moreover a tempter is hardly needed to explain man's failures, after all man is at best a babe and needs to learn

Hell is also against the nature of an all loving God. perhaps we must look at this differentlt. God can be all Powerful, or Loving, or Omniscient but he cannot be all three at once, he may be two of these but not 3. Indeed it is highly unlikely that he is all powerful , because any limitation would mean he is not all powerful. Even Jesus says that god cannot deny himself , thus by definition he cannot deny himself and lacks the power to deny himself.

A good loving God will not punish eternally for man's sins are temporal, so to do that will be vengeance and not justice. Again punishment after death for certain amount of time or of a certain intensity would address that. However, jails are full of people that do not reform under punishment alone.

Zarathushtra tell us that the God is Most Wise and All Good In his Wisdom he has designed that men will continually come back to life ( not necessarilly in a body and not necesasarily even on this planet, until he finally gets it right That , to us, is the solution, that the Most Wise has made. In such a way , every one is, eventually 'saved', God retains his justice and goodness, man his free will and all creation is 'saved'. So you see, there is no need to separate people from God, there is no need for hell fire and there is no need for eternal torment

Ushta te
Ashai

 

[sojourner]

Tell me where do you get this idea that Gods love is unbounded and unconditional to the point where it makes Jesus wrong about his warnings about hell?

From the Bible, which you profess to believe in. "Love is patient, love is kind...It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends."

Yes i do suppose that, thats what i believe - and this theology found in the Bible is what i believe is true. That biblical "certain theological viewpoint" is the one you keep rejecting thats the whole point.

And what if that particular viewpoint isn't correct for all people, in all places, at all times?
How do you deal with the passages that advocate multiple wives and slavery, and that tell us that wearing garments made of mixed cloth is an abomination? Is your shirt cotton/poly? do you have 2 or more wives? Are you a slaveowner? You've justified your own non-observance of these passages. These things don't make sense now. They were written by people of a different culture ina different time. We've studied what was written and adapted the theology for our own time and culture. Again, I think that most of us do not believe in a provincial God who destroys cities (or individuals) for being "unrighteous."

Again this just shows that you do not believe the bible, in your quote above you are trying to explain why the bible does not agree with what you believe. Again if you dont believe the bible your not alone on this forum, but when you try and say that your pet theology is Christs and the Apostles its just clearly not true.

Again, this just shows that you do not believe in higher criticism, which has been the biggest boon to Biblical understanding since Guttenberg.

How do you know about the nature of God? All you know about Gods nature is what you are willing to accept, you like the bible when it talks abaout Gods love and grace but you just reject and ignore when it talks about his holiness, punishment of sin (hell), righteousness etc. You have just created a God to suit yourself and what you want - its called idolatory.
Again its obvious you do not believe in the God of the Bible that Christ and the Apostles taught. You just believe what you want to believe and if the Bible agrees with you then you like it if it clearly dissagrees with you then you just say its wrong or has been edited etc...
You have your own little pet theology, and like it when the bible agrees thats it - you do not however believe in the God clearly discribed in the Bible so stop pretending you do.

How do I know about the nature of God? The Bible tells me. Good, devout people show me.
For your information, I don't always like the truths I find in the Bible. I wrestle with many things. I haven't reconstructed God contrary to what I find in scripture. I form my understanding from what I interpret the scripture to mean. Scriptural interpretation informs my understanding...my understanding doesn't inform the interpretation. I don't ignor what I don't like -- I work with it in order to inform my understanding. That's how I came to the conclusion that God's love and salvation are universal.
Again, it's obvious that you don't believe in higher criticism. you also don't seem to trust your own sense of what the scriptures mean. You're content to just take the scriptures at face value. I find that too shallow for me. This kind of interpretation breeds hate, distrust, bigotry, judgmentalism, fear, condemnation and elitism. Is that really what you think God is all about? is that what Christ's Church should be all about?
99% of all the non-believers I talk to say that they don't believe in God because they can't believe in a God that would hate them enough to send them to hell. They don't believe in a God that breeds the kind of people who prefer to stand in judgment of them, instead of love them, as Christ loved sinners.
Faith and belief just aren't fostered on the kind of draconian "my way, or the highway" coersion that you suggest.