What if I can't be saved?

[Mister_T]

Ushta Mr T

To posit a Satan as per the NT means that the all knowing God made a creature which he knew would rebell and cause 'the fall' of untold billions. More over since he is all powerful God certainly could have found a way not to create Satan. in other words, it goes against god's supposed attributes that he would create such a creature

To solve this we must posit one or more of these

Either Satan is a creation of Christian theology
God is not All Knowing
God is not All Powerful
God is not loving
The concept of satan as an opposer of God was borrowed by Christian theology (certainly I fail to see it in the OT)

Moreover a tempter is hardly needed to explain man's failures, after all man is at best a babe and needs to learn

Hell is also against the nature of an all loving God. perhaps we must look at this differentlt. God can be all Powerful, or Loving, or Omniscient but he cannot be all three at once, he may be two of these but not 3. Indeed it is highly unlikely that he is all powerful , because any limitation would mean he is not all powerful. Even Jesus says that god cannot deny himself , thus by definition he cannot deny himself and lacks the power to deny himself.

A good loving God will not punish eternally for man's sins are temporal, so to do that will be vengeance and not justice. Again punishment after death for certain amount of time or of a certain intensity would address that. However, jails are full of people that do not reform under punishment alone.

Zarathushtra tell us that the God is Most Wise and All Good In his Wisdom he has designed that men will continually come back to life ( not necessarilly in a body and not necesasarily even on this planet, until he finally gets it right That , to us, is the solution, that the Most Wise has made. In such a way , every one is, eventually 'saved', God retains his justice and goodness, man his free will and all creation is 'saved'. So you see, there is no need to separate people from God, there is no need for hell fire and there is no need for eternal torment

Ushta te
Ashai

You made some good points. But I find it hard to believe that Satan is made up. Like I stated earlier, there is just as much evidence for Satan as there is for God. There are people who want to hate. They like it. Satan is powerful and you can decide to let him into your life and you let him run it. You can decide to love Satan or love God. The key word here is you. You have control over yourself. Your eternal destination is in your hands. For some people who hate God, Hell is like Heaven and Heaven is like Hell. God honors their choice by letting them have what they want.

 

[Judgement Day]

Ushta Mr T

To posit a Satan as per the NT means that the all knowing God made a creature which he knew would rebell and cause 'the fall' of untold billions. More over since he is all powerful God certainly could have found a way not to create Satan. in other words, it goes against god's supposed attributes that he would create such a creature

If there is no satan, in other words: no evil in this world, how will you suppose God will test our faith? How will it not go against free will, for free will is the ability to choose every single option whether right or wrong, good or evil. If good only exists in this world, there will be no options.

 

[sojourner]

Ushta sojourner

Well the questions is by whom and how are we 'saved' not that I agree with the concept of Salvation. In christian theology is through Christ. But, frankly, even without adressing the objections of my theology to that, the idea that the innocent die for the guilty, is abhorent to me and goes against god's justice, in my opinion.:bow:

The how, is also problematic, lets just say that its actions and conviction both, or as James put it: ' faith without works is dead'

Ushta Te
Ashai

Of course it's abhorrent. Do you think I jump up and down, gloating because of Christ's sacrifice? No! I feel great remorse that he had to do that.

It also does go against God's judgment, as I see it. But, I feel that God works God's salvation and righteousness through the human story -- not outside of it. It was human sin that separated us from God in the first place. It was human need for a scapegoat and human politics that pur christ on the cross.

It is precisely because God became one of us and experienced death as one of us that we are reconciled to God. It is because God chose to work within us, and not apart from us that we can know salvation.

 

[Mister_T]

To posit a Satan as per the NT means that the all knowing God made a creature which he knew would rebell and cause 'the fall' of untold billions. More over since he is all powerful God certainly could have found a way not to create Satan. in other words, it goes against god's supposed attributes that he would create such a creature

I'll solve this for you in 2 words: Free Will. God wants us to love him but that love must be genuine. But now I'm just repeating myself. Read my earlier posts about the relationship concept and God. God gave you the gift of existence. You choose who you want to follow, not God.

 

[illyena]

Sounds like I take Christianity more seriously than you....the advice I'm looking for is simple: If I asked God for guidance and discovered that God wasn't real, what next?

You must feel very lucky to have found him, but isn't it your duty as a Christian to try and help me? I didn't decide that God wasn't real, I discovered it. How can I now find God? Simply, BELIEVE? Impossible. What hope is there for me?

God loves you whether you believe he exists or not, I will say that your faith in the nonexistance of god is misplaced but it is yours, no man can tell you what the judgement of god will be but we do know that we are judged according to our knowledge and our actions. Pascals wager may be a good thing to apply in your instance, if you can not accept that god exists then live the best life you can from a humanistic POV and live with your choice knowing that even if you are wrong and god does exist that you are living the bestlife you can with respect for your fellow man

 

[BucephalusBB]

Are you sure you're an Atheist? Sounds like you're an Agnostic.

In that case I would have to think that the existance or non-existance of God is unprovable. I do not. And im not in the middle or so, I do think that God does not exist just as hard as many searching believers here think he does exist.

Not at all. There is plenty of evidence for aliens. Evidence that can't be ignored. To completley disregard all of the evidence for the exsistence of other life would be intellectually dishonest.

There is "evidence" for about every theory. But they can't be all true..

Heh. No. I was simply demonstrating the concept of how pointless it is to trying to explain spiritual experiences to somone who won't take you seriously.

I know. I just thought it was funny :hug:
But if I wouldn't take it seriously, I wouldn't be a member here.

 

[Mister_T]

In that case I would have to think that the existance or non-existance of God is unprovable. I do not. And im not in the middle or so, I do think that God does not exist just as hard as many searching believers here think he does exist.

Hmmm....well then, if you could prove the exsistence or non-exsistence of God, then how would you go about doing it?

There is "evidence" for about every theory. But they can't be all true..

This is true. And Atheism is not exempt from this.

I know. I just thought it was funny :hug:
But if I wouldn't take it seriously, I wouldn't be a member here.

glad to see open minds

 

[ashai]

You made some good points. But I find it hard to believe that Satan is made up. Like I stated earlier, there is just as much evidence for Satan as there is for God. There are people who want to hate. They like it. Satan is powerful and you can decide to let him into your life and you let him run it. You can decide to love Satan or love God. The key word here is you. You have control over yourself. Your eternal destination is in your hands. For some people who hate God, Hell is like Heaven and Heaven is like Hell. God honors their choice by letting them have what they want.

Ushta Mr T

You also make good points.:clap From a logical point of view , if there is a God there could be a devil. If you believe in the Bible, as inspired, you have the problem of the different devils in the NT and the OT. I follow the Gathas of Zarathushtra, they do not posit a devil . Good and Evil are names we give to the consequences of our ethical choices. Man by making wrongful decisions , manifests evil in the world. But ultimately mortals choose evil out of ignorance which lies at the root cause of selfisness and arrogance

But in all this, I believe you are missing the effects of God's laws. Both Zarathushtra and Jesus claim that we get back the consequences of what we do or choose. Jesus says As ye sow , so hall ye reap! Zarathushtra says Each gets the just deserts of his choice , good for good, right for right, evil for evil, wrong for wrong

Eventually your evil catches up to you, and you are not going to like the consequences, Zarathushtra says that this law is designed by the Most Wise to teach us how to choose correctly in life. :bow:

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

If there is no satan, in other words: no evil in this world, how will you suppose God will test our faith? How will it not go against free will, for free will is the ability to choose every single option whether right or wrong, good or evil. If good only exists in this world, there will be no options.

Ushta Judgement Day

Who is saying there is no evil in the world? Satan is not a precondition for evil. If you put aside the so called natural evils (which are either chance events that cannot be ruled out in a Cosmos designed for free choice, or are actually designed to preserve the planet, like earthquakes) there is no evil, or good, that is not linked to man in thought, word, or deed.

Man , out of ignorance , sometimes chooses wrongfully or becomes selfish, arrogant etc. But man does not have to behave that way, indeed man is the first creature, on this planet at least, that can actually do good in the sense of altruistic, ethical and abstract good. He is also the only one who can call something universally good or bad.

As to God testing us, the whole of life is a test so that you learn how to harmonize yourself to the will of the Most Wise. Every circumstance , every choice is part of that test. You are here to learn life is your crucible and it has little to do with what you believe or do not, Choices come at every second to the believer and the unbeliever alike. :slap:

The consequences of those choices will eventually teach us what is the right way. It would also teach the recalcitrant that there is no escape from the wrongful consequences of wrongful behavior, they will , eventually finds us out. :bonk: The moment we understand this immutable law, is the moment we can start adjusting to harmonize ourselves to what is good and put aside that which is wrong.:bounce

its a long road, longer for some than for others but it leads to Better Existence, the Abode of the Highest Mind and communion with the Creator and its a road that all will take when they truly understand the law of just returns.:162:

Ushta te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

Of course it's abhorrent. Do you think I jump up and down, gloating because of Christ's sacrifice? No! I feel great remorse that he had to do that.
It was human sin that separated us from God in the first place. .

Ushta Sojourner

To us , God would never endorse the sacrifice of the innocent for the guilty.:tsk: But this besides the point for we do not see humankind as guilty in nature. Guilty is the wrongdoer and since, in our theology, man was created to be taught and not , primarily , to obey the whole of the race is not guilty but only those that harm. But to err out of ignorance without the purpose to harm is not unexpected. we are a blank slate we must grow and learn.

As to separation from, God that, to us, is impossible.:dan: God, we believe is immanent in Creation. His very Right Law, (Asha) that upholds, nurtures and promotes the Cosmos, is in us in the very processes by which we live. For example osmosis is a law of Asha and without it we would not even be able to breath. Asha's very source is God, it is one of the aspects of His nature. How can then we be separated from Him, if our very breath depends on Him?

To us, its our incompleteness separates us from constant communion with God not from His presence and love:bounce

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

I'll solve this for you in 2 words: Free Will. God wants us to love him but that love must be genuine. But now I'm just repeating myself. Read my earlier posts about the relationship concept and God. God gave you the gift of existence. You choose who you want to follow, not God.

Mister T, Ushta

The devil being created by God and free will, are two different issues. Or are you saying that if the devil did not exist we would not have free will? God gave us many gifts, free will included, but the point is that a Wise , Good and Loving God would not need to punish mortals with eternal separation or torment. Simply put we believe that we learn by the consequences of our choices and, eventually, we will understand that to oppose this law is akin to striking our heads against an impenetrable wall.

Ushta Te
Ashai:bow:

 

[Maxist]

I beg to differ Dawny0826; if you ar correct, then I am a Theist because I beleive in you. You say that faith is beleiveing in somthing that you cannot see, or feel. I cannot see or feel you, any of you, and yet I can say with surity that I am an Atheist.

 

[Ody]

What advice do the Christians have for me? I can't be saved. I can't believe. I know it with all of my heart. It is who I am. Is it my failing or Gods?

Neither. You have to understand in HaShem's view, its your actions that count, not what you believe.

 

[Norman]

What advice do the Christians have for me? I can't be saved. I can't believe. I know it with all of my heart. It is who I am. Is it my failing or Gods?

Hi, Ormiston, it is my opinion that a person has to find out for themselves. I searched for years and I asked and prayed and felt that I should join The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. However, what I felt was right for me may not be right for someone else. I lost a lot of friends and even family members when I joined this church. However, it has brought me a lot of peace and happiness for thirty years now and that is what I try to focus on. I still feel the pain of some of my friends and family members calling me crazy, brain washed, church of Satan and a lot of other names. It is just something I need to deal with and just decided to go forward and not look back. Good luck with your journey through life. I hope this helped.

 

[psychoslice]

What if I can't be saved?....saved from what ?.