What if I can't be saved?

[BucephalusBB]

Ormiston,

Can I ask why you'd want to be saved if you don't believe in God in the first place? And my second question is: Who says you need to be saved?

If you are, as you proclaim, an athiest, then why would you be worried about being saved? You don't believe in God so apparently you also don't believe in salvation...so why try to get something you don't believe in? Are you looking for salvation because Christians tell you that you're going to hell if you aren't saved? If you can clarify those questions maybe I can offer some useful ideas on how to deal with your problem.

I can't speak for ormiston, but I'll give you my version why I ask myself this. Now that I am invading this thread anyway
I ask myself this not to get into heaven, but based on the fact that some religious people believe nonbelievers will go to hell. I am a very good person, and without following the religion, I am probably following lots of their moral rules out of my own. But still I go to hell because I do not believe in God. I want to see how those people would like to see me believe when I do not. I can tell you that I believe, I can tel my mother, I can pretent for the church. I can pray every day. I can lie to everybody making them believe God exists. But I can't lie to myself. I know what I think. And if God does exist, he knows as well.. you don't chose religion. you think what you think.(even with the lame theeory of the devil giving you those thoughts and stuff...)
So how can they still think I will go to heaven just for not believing God exists?

 

[Ormiston]

Ormiston,

Can I ask why you'd want to be saved if you don't believe in God in the first place? And my second question is: Who says you need to be saved?

If you are, as you proclaim, an athiest, then why would you be worried about being saved? You don't believe in God so apparently you also don't believe in salvation...so why try to get something you don't believe in? Are you looking for salvation because Christians tell you that you're going to hell if you aren't saved? If you can clarify those questions maybe I can offer some useful ideas on how to deal with your problem.

I'm not neccesarily trying to get anything more than insight with this thread. I don't fear damnation. My main point was how would Christians view someone who could not be saved. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about people who have lived and died prior to Christianity. I think it is a valid comparison to my situation.

 

[maggie2]

I can't speak for ormiston, but I'll give you my version why I ask myself this. Now that I am invading this thread anyway
I ask myself this not to get into heaven, but based on the fact that some religious people believe nonbelievers will go to hell. I am a very good person, and without following the religion, I am probably following lots of their moral rules out of my own. But still I go to hell because I do not believe in God. I want to see how those people would like to see me believe when I do not. I can tell you that I believe, I can tel my mother, I can pretent for the church. I can pray every day. I can lie to everybody making them believe God exists. But I can't lie to myself. I know what I think. And if God does exist, he knows as well.. you don't chose religion. you think what you think.(even with the lame theeory of the devil giving you those thoughts and stuff...)
So how can they still think I will go to heaven just for not believing God exists?

I understand where you're coming from, Bouncing Ball. I used to be part of a fundamentalist faith group. That is actually what turned me off Christianity. It just didn't make sense to me. How could God be a God of love and still send a whole bunch of people to hell? That didn't seem very loving to me. And when I read the Old Testament I thought the God described therein was a miserable spoiled brat, killing people for no reason and wreaking havoc in many lives. It just didn't add up and like you, I could lie to others but I couldn't lie to myself about it. So as I say, I do understand where you're coming from.

As to the concept of choice, that is the one area where I tend to disagee with you.Both you and I have chosen to be true to our own inner wisdom. We have chosen not to continue to pretend that we believe something we don't. Many others choose to ignore those little niggling doubts and continue on with their set of beliefs. Many others choose to accept blindly what someone else tells them is 'the truth'. I truly think that b elief IS a choice, although it is often a very subconscious choice.

You are one of the growing number of people who are no longer willing to accept someone else's set of beliefs. You are no longer willing to try to force yourself to believe something that your heart tells you is not appropriate for you. Not everyone is at that place yet. There are many who still have no doubt that their beliefs are right. There are others who are just starting to doubt. There are those who have squashed their doubts out of fear of hell or simply because their families are so strongly rooted in a fundamentalist belief and they can't break away from them. There are still others who are at the beginning stages of examining their doubts...they take them out every now and then and take a peek at them then quickly store them away again. However, they will continue this process until such time as their doubts can no longer be hidden back in the closet. Then they will, hopefully, get to a place where they can openly explore faith and discover where their journey leads.

I believe that every human is on a journey and that each of us must find our own path. Some choose to explore but others prefer to stay in their 'comfortable pew'. Each of us takes many twists and turns and the journey really is never over until we have reached the end of this life. Oh my, guess I should get off my soap box now!

 

[maggie2]

I'm not neccesarily trying to get anything more than insight with this thread. I don't fear damnation. My main point was how would Christians view someone who could not be saved. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about people who have lived and died prior to Christianity. I think it is a valid comparison to my situation.

Got ya. I realize now that you aren't really looking for answers, just attempting to get someone else to THINK. There are those who will and then there are those who won't. Some are ready for another step forward and others are not. As I said in my last post, I think we are all on a journey and we have to walk our own path, find our own way and the journey never ends. Regardless, this kind of discussion is helpful...you never know when you might strike a chord.

 

[spookboy0]

No. I truly believe that I can't be saved because of "the way I'm wired". I'm incapable of being a Christian. My question is if by no fault of my own, I truly can't be saved, then why should I be punished?

My motivation is to get opinions, but I also wanted the Christians to think with their own heads and step away from the scripture for a moment. What if I can't be saved. What does that have to say for the Christian message? Where does the problem lie?

AH! Now see, this is more specific than just "What if I can't be saved?"

because of "the way I'm wired"

Your point?

What I mean is this: Everybody is bound to sin, because nobody on Earth is God. God is above sin, because He created it and isn't subject to it's rule. Anyway, everybody is going to sin if they haven't already.

I'm incapable of being a Christian.

Not true. Change is possible. The Gospel is open to everyone, even those who A) don't believe it or B) don't know it. The statements that they don't believe in it or they don't don't know it doesn't change the fact that there is a message, and the fact that it is open to everyone. It depends on willingness.

My question is if by no fault of my own, I truly can't be saved, then why should I be punished?

Don't take this the wrong way, but it is your fault. You aren't the Creator, therefore you didn't create the standard to which you are at fault.

Truly can't be saved? Herein lies this question: "Saved from what?" Obviously there is going to be some punishing, but those who are saved won't go through this punishment because they are saved from it.

What if I can't be saved? What does that have to say for the Christian message? Where does the problem lie?

It doesn't say anything about the Christian message. The Christian message isn't the variable. It's the control, meaning it doesn't change if you aren't there. You are the variable. You depend on it, or the lack thereof; it doesn't depend on you.

The problem lies in your head, since you honestly believe that there is no possible way of salvation for you. You obviously know that there is a God, lest we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I'm not neccesarily trying to get anything more than insight with this thread. I don't fear damnation. My main point was how would Christians view someone who could not be saved. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about people who have lived and died prior to Christianity. I think it is a valid comparison to my situation.

I have been following this thread and it was quite clear that you wanted something else than your question and statement that you can't be saved.

But that presupposes that the variety of Christian answering believe it is possible to be saved in this life and before judgement.
That belief is only held by some Christians.

I agree that we should not centre our lives on the dead, one way or another they are in the hands of God.
It is better to remember their lives with pleasure, and to give comfort and support to those that mourn.
The funeral services serves many purposes, for some, this is to draw a line in the sand; to signify the start of a new life both for those left behind and the departed.

Back to the question, it is no Christians' task to decide who can and can not be saved.
This is one Job only God can handle.

Terry__________________________
Blessed are those who suffer in the cause of right, the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

 

[Ormiston]

I have been following this thread and it was quite clear that you wanted something else than your question and statement that you can't be saved.

Any ideas what that might be? I didn't have any sort of clear intent when I wrote the opening post. I was reading mainly Christian posts and the thought occured to me.

Also, I deeply believe that none of us are 100% responsible for ourselves. We have no choice where to be born, sex, race, etc. While alive, many have disorders both mental and physical. And, simply, none of us asked for our lives. We are (possibly - I feel at least) blessed to be alive and all else that follows is life. Life to me is outside of supernatural ideas like God. I'm on this site because I like to think and talk and I don't think what we do, decide, or think will ever be held against us in the afterlife.

So, to follow from those thoughts, I return to the original question. I don't hold myself responsible for how I behave in this life ****note: it just so happens that I do indeed hold myself responsible for how I behave, but I was just lucky to end up with this trait **** and I now find that I cannot stand Christianity (at least what I percieve to be Christianity). What do the Christians think of my predicament? Do you hope I will eventually accept Jesus? Do you expect me to simply end up in Hell? Do you think it's pointless to even discuss Christianity with me (cause I sometimes feel like you should)?

 

[Mister_T]

So, to follow from those thoughts, I return to the original question. I don't hold myself responsible for how I behave in this life ****note: it just so happens that I do indeed hold myself responsible for how I behave, but I was just lucky to end up with this trait **** and I now find that I cannot stand Christianity (at least what I percieve to be Christianity). What do the Christians think of my predicament? Do you hope I will eventually accept Jesus? Do you expect me to simply end up in Hell? Do you think it's pointless to even discuss Christianity with me (cause I sometimes feel like you should)?

I say to each his his own. But I have a question for you: Is it Christianity (the people and the idea's) you don't like, or is it God. And if it's God then why?

 

[Squirt]

What do the Christians think of my predicament?

I think you have a lot of company, for one thing!

Do you hope I will eventually accept Jesus?

Sure, I do. But unlike most Christians, I don't believe it will have to be during your mortal life. Like you said, "We have no choice where to be born, sex, race, etc. While alive, many have disorders both mental and physical." I believe that God will take all of these things into consideration and will give you the opportunity to "reconsider" during the period in between your death and your resurrection. All of the barriers which may have contributed to your not accepting Jesus here and now will be removed and things of a spiritual nature (such as who Jesus is and what your relationship is to Him) may take on an entirely new perspective.

Do you expect me to simply end up in Hell?

Not a chance in Hell. And that's even if you were never to become a Christian.

Do you think it's pointless to even discuss Christianity with me (cause I sometimes feel like you should)?

Of course it's not pointless. Why would I feel that way?

 

[Ormiston]

I say to each his his own. But I have a question for you: Is it Christianity (the people and the idea's) you don't like, or is it God. And if it's God then why?

You know, I was just thinking about something very simliar to your question. To answer it first, I have absolutely no problem with the possibility that God, gods, goddesses, etc. exist. I don't know and it does seem like a reasonable possibility. I also have no problem with someone who has concluded that it is likely that God exists. What I do have a problem with is someone who not only believes that God exists, but that he has delegated his authority and wisdom among men. That's crap. If the almighty "whatever" wants something done he/she/it better do it themselves because no man is better or wiser (in the ways of the supernatural) than any other and I find it reprehensible that a god would work strictly through word of mouth. The very fact that so much doubt exists on the very simple subject of existance of God leads me to believe that either God does not care to be know or that God does not truly exist. Especially a God that is so caught up in his own worship and rules.

Now, the thing I was thinking about was this: for those who withhold absolute belief or disbelief in God, such as myself, would they prefer God exist or not exist? I think I'll start a new thread....

 

[Mister_T]

That's nonsense. I do believe in what you call the supernatural. Only I don't translate it to spirits, ghosts and God. I believe there are more things we can't see than things we can see. In fact, we are finding more and more of them. And I know there are lots of things we cannot prove yet. So the results I am expecting are supposed to be "supernatural". And don't you think it works the other way around as wel. religious people get the results they look for?

To get back at the original subject.. .. Why would I believe in something that I never felt before? never saw before? What is God different to me than a 15 cm pink elephant besides the fact that God has milions of followers that believe the most rediculous things? And why would I start believing in that if all those people keep telling me they can't explain their selves?

Oh I definitley agree that it works both ways. And you said yourself there are a lot of things we can't prove yet. That includes God and spirits. But Atheists don't even consider God and spirits a possibilty. And that right there is an act of closed mindedness. A lot of religious people have doubts about the exsistence of God. They consider God not being real, a possibility. BUT, they also have a lot of evidence for God that they can't ignore. And just because you personally have not experienced these things that you consider ridiculous, DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST. And if you believe that what these people are saying is ridiculous, why on earth would they try to explain something to you with that mindset. Like lunamoth said "If you start with a base assumption that there is nothing more that what we can observe and measure objectively, right there you've ruled out Something More." There would be no point in trying to explain something on a spritual level to you because you will just dissmiss it. It's like trying to convince a black man that he's white.

 

[Mister_T]

You know, I was just thinking about something very simliar to your question. To answer it first, I have absolutely no problem with the possibility that God, gods, goddesses, etc. exist. I don't know and it does seem like a reasonable possibility. I also have no problem with someone who has concluded that it is likely that God exists. What I do have a problem with is someone who not only believes that God exists, but that he has delegated his authority and wisdom among men. That's crap. If the almighty "whatever" wants something done he/she/it better do it themselves because no man is better or wiser (in the ways of the supernatural) than any other and I find it reprehensible that a god would work strictly through word of mouth. The very fact that so much doubt exists on the very simple subject of existance of God leads me to believe that either God does not care to be know or that God does not truly exist. Especially a God that is so caught up in his own worship and rules.

Now, the thing I was thinking about was this: for those who withhold absolute belief or disbelief in God, such as myself, would they prefer God exist or not exist? I think I'll start a new thread....

Well now you touching on subjects that you could write a whole book about. And I've read some of them. The best advice I can give you is IF you decide you want find God, do it on your own. Don't get caught up in God's "Elite" people and their ways. I feel that they've given you the wrong picture of what God's about. Find your own path and have YOUR OWN relationship with God. That's what he wants. I've said this before: I know there are some good churches out there, but a lot of religious organizations turn people off to God by how they act. I think Ghandi summed it up best: "I like their Christ. I don't like their Christians"

 

[ashai]

Ushta

Saved from what ? The Christian/Islamic theory of Salvation, has always puzzled me. If God is love, Compassionate and forgiving, why build a hell, why make its punishment by fire and eternal , or in case you metaphorize it, why make separation from God as punishment eternal?

Makes no sense. I mean who made man capable of sinning? Who is it that supposedly foreknows each individual's end and yet still creates those that are hell bound? Who is love and gives eternal torment? Why if he is All Powerful, must he torment for eternity? Never got a consistent credible answer to any of this and never will

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

Do you believe Christ was crucified? Historically etc this is established.

Ushta Steve

Historically established? How. the only record of christ crucifieed is the Bible, Josephus has been showed to have been tampered with. There is no record independent of the Bible that an itinerant rabbi, preached what Jesus is supposed to habe preached at the time he is supposed to have done it and that he was crucified, so again, how is Jesus crucifixtion , historically established?:149:

Do you believe the gospels teach what he taugh and record what he did? If not why not?

We simply don't know! The Gospels took 'sayings' attributed to Jesus and wove a story from supposed eyewitness accounts of what he did, that is why the Gospels do not fully agree in many details. Jesus did not write anything or leave any records, all that we know of him comes from some one else who is quoting some one else.

On top of that many Gospels were destroyed How can we know that we have what he said? Even assuming that the early church was not as prone to falsifying materials and hide records as it later proved to be, what we have are hear say third party supposed eye witness accounts decades after the fact!

it is a well known fact of criminology and psychology that eye witness accounts are often unreliable and the more so the longer itr takes to record them


Do you believe the apostles just made it all up and were still willing to die for it?

Outside the Bible, is there any record of any Apostle dying for these accounts? Inside the Bible there is no account of the type of death of most of the Apostles. Did the Apostle's make it up . Only 3 (4 if you consider james an Apostle) out of at least 14 persons who at different were calimed to be Apostles could have made up anything the others are all very silent in the Bible.

Two of these John and Peter apparently disagreed on several points Indeed we cannot even be sure that it was THE John and Peter and not some nome the plume. Paul who is a little more believable , basically disagreed with every one else and, in any case, Paul did not write a Gospel The only Gospel supposedly written by an Apostle was John's and, again, there is no record of him having died for it

Why do you believe Christ let himself be crucified?

Well if you had been captured by armed soldiers and taken before a Roman Governor and sentenced to be crucified , what would you have done? There is nothing that an itinerant Jewish rabbi could have done either! Unless of course, you presuppose that he was the Son of God. But , again, outside the NT there is not even an iota of an inference that this was so.

Cheers

Cheers and Ushta Back to you:bow:
Steve

Ashai

 

[Mister_T]

Ushta

Saved from what ? The Christian/Islamic theory of Salvation, has always puzzled me. If God is love, Compassionate and forgiving, why build a hell, why make its punishment by fire and eternal , or in case you metaphorize it, why make separation from God as punishment eternal?

Makes no sense. I mean who made man capable of sinning? Who is it that supposedly foreknows each individual's end and yet still creates those that are hell bound? Who is love and gives eternal torment? Why if he is All Powerful, must he torment for eternity? Never got a consistent credible answer to any of this and never will

Ushta Te
Ashai

I think a lot people get the wrong idea about Hell. Hell is seperation without God. You are placed in Hell if you want to be seperated from God. Hell is for people who want to be at the center of the Universe and after dying continue wanting to be at the center of the Universe. Hell is not for a bunch of good people who just didn't believe the right things. It's like jail. We don't want it but we have it. Instead of just killing everyone who breaks the law we place them in Jail. Same thing with God. In Heavan, you're going to be hanging out with God. What else are you supposed to do with people who don't want to be there?

 

[ashai]

No. I truly believe that I can't be saved because of "the way I'm wired". I'm incapable of being a Christian. My question is if by no fault of my own, I truly can't be saved, then why should I be punished?

Ushta Ormiston

You won't be punished. God is not into the business of creating creatures to torture them An invisible God that cannot be proven would not make belief in himself a requirement of his creation Specially he would not make a hell and torture ( in some way) his creatures for eternity, the more so if he were all powerful.

The whole interpretation is flawed. Sincerely, I don't know if there is a credible re-interpretation out there. I was , some 28 years ago; in a similar situation to yours. Thankfully I came to realize that it is the Theology that is non-sensical not God, indeed once you find a theology that makes sense, you will have no problem with religion at all.:bounce

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[ashai]

Ushta spookboy

WOw! Did i read you right? Did you truly said that God created sin?

If so, what makes you think that?

Ushta Te
Ashai

 

[YmirGF]

What advice do the Christians have for me?

Hehe. Why is it that a average Christian would know good answers? Is the Christian god the only one worthy of consideration?

I can't be saved. I can't believe. I know it with all of my heart.

You must be very bad LOL. I have changed my thinking to; I do not WANT to be saved. By the way, FROM what am I being saved, and FOR what am I being saved. I'll pass thanks, as I have never seen a single argument that managed to convince me otherwise. In reality, the Christian god does not exist, but that is just my opinion. With so many learned scholars biatching through history, what do I know? They are all so obviously, oh so correct.

It is who I am. Is it my failing or Gods?

Dude. I'd look for a better being than the god you are setting your sights on. The Abrahamic gods as worthy of mention, but hardly worth taking seriously. Come now, the real God, is not quite that mundane... or stupid.

In all honesty Ormy, I would simply tell you to dig down deep and try to touch your inner self. When you have mulled that nugget for several years, I suspect you will have a rather startling, personal relationship with a god worthy of your affections.

 

[BucephalusBB]

As to the concept of choice, that is the one area where I tend to disagee with you.Both you and I have chosen to be true to our own inner wisdom. We have chosen not to continue to pretend that we believe something we don't. Many others choose to ignore those little niggling doubts and continue on with their set of beliefs. Many others choose to accept blindly what someone else tells them is 'the truth'. I truly think that b elief IS a choice, although it is often a very subconscious choice.

little niggling doubts? what if they are not little?
belief is a choice? What if you see a frog hopping on the street and you think it's a frog. then somebody else comes to you and says its toad. Now you can choose to follow him here. perhaps he is a biologist and knows better. but you still see "the frog". Here you can choose to call it a toad and follow the one who is supposed to know better, or you keep thinking it's a frog, maybe even do some research. Either way you will keep believing it's a frog. the thing you choose is the one you follow, not your belief.

 

[ashai]

Ushta Mr T

Separation? Maybe? The only way it can be said that hell theology, is about separation from God is if you provide allegorical renderings to many Bible passages, however, I must warn you that, Hermeneutically speaking, for a passage to be considered an allegory there must be outside evidence of the allegorical use of similar passages. I sincerely doubt that most, or any, of these allegorical renderings of hell torment, can pass that Hermeneutical test.

But, besides that, separation from God for an eternity, is a cruel condemnation to a spiritless eternal existence. Why must an all powerful god do this? I do not find the usual Christian defenses of this credible. Moreover, it will be a failure for God to loose his beloved creatures forever.

I point out that there are other theologies in which god does not have to punish any one with torment and or separation. In Zoroastrianism, for example, we are created to become like unto God, who basically has created reality as our school marm. We learn from the consequences of our choices. In addition , there is , to us, the Thought Provoking Message of Zarathushtra , which can help us in our learning and there is God's plan written in the very creation that is all around us.

This message, as you can see, is not about one obeying or else being punished but about learning. I do not want to go on and on so I will leave it here.

Ushta te
Ashai