What exactly is feminism and why do some oppose it?

[QuestioningMind]

I was just thinking about how some people feel justified in criticizing men like Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin and a segment of other similar type men, but some people don't feel justified in criticizing guys like Justin Treadou, Barack Obama and a lot of other intellectual men and I was curious what the root of this is, and I thought something profound...

Guys like Trump and Putin seem to be the opposite of feminists.

...So is it actually true, that Trump, being viewed as the opposite of a feminist, is ultimately his greatest weakness as a Western politician..?

Please remember that this is a nondebate forum.

Feminism is simply the belief that both men and women should be provided the same rights, opportunities, and protections under the law. Those who oppose giving women the same rights, opportunities, and protections realize that such a position is horribly sexist and misogynistic, so they attempt to paint 'feminism' as some sort of a radical movement designed to castrate all males. That way they can pretend like they're not sexist misogynists, but are actually protecting the rights of men.

As for your contention that men like Trump get criticized, while somehow no one ever criticized Obama is quite simply false. Have you somehow forgotten the endless stream of criticisms from the right against the communist, Muslim, American hating traitor in the White House throughout both of Obama's terms?

 

[Cooky]

Feminism is a wide-ranging cultural theory and movement primarily concerned with examining gendered power structures and, specifically, with how those gendered power structures favour men and/or subjugate women, and how these power structures may be present and function in various systems, through history and in art and popular culture.

Do you think feminism might have something to do with being more loving toward others?

...I ask because a lot of hyper-masculine men I've met seem stern and not very caring of others emotions or feelings.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

A wrinkle here is that there are dozens of kinds of feminism.
One may oppose some, while favoring others.
Examples...
1) The brand which claims trans women aren't real women.
I can see most of us opposing that.
2) Libertarian feminism. I've read at least one feminist
opposing that because we approve of sex work.

I liked because of the number 1. Though I don't think being okay with sex work makes you a libertarian feminist. (Not suggesting you do either) Lots of feminists believe that sex work could be okay in theory but the system which it exists in right now is exploitive as heck so needs a complete overhaul policy wise before it can be acceptable, and I can see that angle. Certainly some feminists oppose using one's body for currency at any time but it's hard to really see what aspect of feminism that's stemming from, since they also seem to be against men doing it too.

 

[Cooky]

A wrinkle here is that there are dozens of kinds of feminism.
One may oppose some, while favoring others.
Examples...
1) The brand which claims trans women aren't real women.
I can see most of us opposing that.
2) Libertarian feminism. I've read at least one feminist
opposing that because we approve of sex work.

What about feminine culture. I wonder if there is something there men could learn from.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Even that is not all. Some power structures favor some men and subjugate other men, because they don't live up to the narrative of a real man.

No, that would be covered by feminist theory too. It isn't as if power structures set up to disempower and subjugate women can't also have negative impacts on men, too. Toxic masculinity being a good example, as your have rightly pointed out.

Not sure if there is a named branch of feminism that specifically looks at how these structures can negatively affect men. I wouldn't be surprised if there was, but I'm struggling to look it up.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Do you think feminism might have something to do with being more loving toward others?

...I ask because a lot of hyper-masculine men I've met seem stern and not very caring of others emotions or feelings.

I think gaining an understanding of almost any critical theory can foster greater understanding and love between people.

 

[Revoltingest]

I liked because of the number 1. Though I don't think being okay with sex work makes you a libertarian feminist.

Of course, that single position doesn't make one a libertarian feminist.

Lots of feminists believe that sex work could be okay in theory but the system which it exists in right now is exploitive as heck so needs a complete overhaul policy wise before it can be acceptable, and I can see that angle. Certainly some feminists oppose using one's body for currency at any time but it's hard to really see what aspect of feminism that's stemming from, since they also seem to be against men doing it too.

If 2 parties are consenting adults, sex is a fee for service,
just like getting one's neck massaged or teeth cleaned.
Although both are recently difficult because of the plague.

 

[Revoltingest]

What about feminine culture. I wonder if there is something there men could learn from.

"Be careful."

 

[Cooky]

I guess with this thread, the paradigm I was hinting towards was the culture differences between East and West. The West being more feminine friendly and the East being dominantly masculine (Trump resembling more of an Easterner).

But discussing economic and income inequalities is fine to discuss as well, if that's what one prefers, since it all falls under "feminism" as a concept.

 

[Cooky]

"Be careful."

I thought of the danger there after posting it. But I hope everyone knows I have no agenda, and simply seek understanding in this non-debate thread.

 

[Revoltingest]

I thought of the danger there after posting it. But I hope everyone knows I have no agenda, and simply seek understanding in this non-debate thread.

I was concerned that you might think I was warning you.
No....tis general advice for men to learn from observing women.
The female of the species is inscrutable....be careful when interacting with them.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

If 2 parties are consenting adults, sex is a fee for service,
just like getting one's neck massaged or teeth cleaned.
Although both are recently difficult because of the plague.

I agree. Although the massage world had to have huge overhauls in policy and strict guidelines to protect massage therapists from being taken advantage of, too. People assuming it came with sex when it wasn't on offer, and getting aggressive when it was made clear that's not on the table (ha, pun.) Basically, I think you have to have really secure boundaries and ways of strictly enforcing them, and backup if someone tries to push through them.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree. Although the massage world had to have huge overhauls in policy and strict guidelines to protect massage therapists from being taken advantage of, too. People assuming it came with sex when it wasn't on offer, and getting aggressive when it was made clear that's not on the table (ha, pun.) Basically, I think you have to have really secure boundaries and ways of strictly enforcing them, and backup if someone tries to push through them.

I've argued that sex work would benefit from licensing providers.
Although, the standards should be higher than they are for some
professions, eg, attorneys.
Do you know the difference between a prostitute & a lawyer?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I've argued that sex work would benefit from licensing providers.
Although, the standards should be higher than they are for some
professions, eg, attorneys.

That's kind of what happened with massage, too. In Oregon as well as a lot of states you are not legally allowed to say you preform massage (specifically the word massage), without a license, which comes with accredited schooling and testing, and continuing education and business practice standards. I believe they were trying to do something similar for sex workers in Vegas but this was decades ago and I don't know if it got the traction it needed.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's kind of what happened with massage, too. In Oregon as well as a lot of states you are not legally allowed to say you preform massage (specifically the word massage), without a license, which comes with accredited schooling and testing, and continuing education and business practice standards. I believe they were trying to do something similar for sex workers in Vegas but this was decades ago and I don't know if it got the traction it needed.

Some might say that my proposal isn't libertarian, but the real
world often presents us with a range of un-libertarian choices.
Choosing between illegality vs licensed & legality, the latter is
the most libertarian choice available.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Some might say that my proposal isn't libertarian, but the real
world often presents us with a range of un-libertarian choices.
Choosing between illegality vs licensed & legality, the latter is
the most libertarian choice available.

I generally don't like a lot of libertarian philosophy (surprise!) but I acknowledge that not all libertarians are minarchists. And even those that are still generally put some value in an enforced standards of business practice at some level.
(Most of my objections are with objectivist/randian style thought, not with consolidated government power.)

 

[Revoltingest]

I generally don't like a lot of libertarian philosophy (surprise!) but I acknowledge that not all libertarians are minarchists. And even those that are still generally put some value in an enforced standards of business practice at some level.
(Most of my objections are with objectivist/randian style thought, not with consolidated government power.)

I'm one of those dreaded minarchists.
But note that "min" doesn't mean no government,
just the minimum necessary to achieve goals.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm one of those dreaded minarchists.
But note that "min" doesn't mean no government,
just the minimum necessary to achieve goals.

More on that in another thread, I think.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Do you think feminism might have something to do with being more loving toward others?

...I ask because a lot of hyper-masculine men I've met seem stern and not very caring of others emotions or feelings.

In a hyper-masculanized world where strength and power are the valued commodities, and the Yang power strength dynamic is seen as male, they may reject 'feelings' as being counter to that goal. And by association reject femininity, and women.
Personally I take a more modern Taoist sort of view where masculinity and femininity aren't related to sex. And it's something each individual should balance in themselves (the yang and the yin). Rejection of either is going to bring about disappointment and mental hardship. It still means pushing back in a hyper-masculine world which does not value introspection, feeling, nurturing, self-care for women or for men. Which is why I think feminism is indeed something that also helps men.

 

[Cooky]

In a hyper-masculanized world where strength and power are the valued commodities, and the Yang power strength dynamic is seen as male, they may reject 'feelings' as being counter to that goal. And by association reject femininity, and women.
Personally I take a more modern Taoist sort of view where masculinity and femininity aren't related to sex. And it's something each individual should balance in themselves (the yang and the yin). Rejection of either is going to bring about disappointment and mental hardship. It still means pushing back in a hyper-masculine world which does not value introspection, feeling, nurturing, self-care for women or for men. Which is why I think feminism is indeed something that also helps men.

I totally agree.