What Drove the Evolution of Language?

[CynthiaCypher]

but there is no evidence that it is used to communicate anything like the complex tactical and strategic information that humans communicate.

Why not? Birds learn things from each other, they could be using language to teach each other

 

[painted wolf]

I agree that language has more to do with brain complexity rather than brain size, although you do need a lot of neurons to service the needs of language users. As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "language gene". I suspect that the capacity for language relies on abilities that are controlled by more than one gene. Birdsong can come in "dialects" that are acquired through exposure to a specific version, but there is no evidence that it is used to communicate anything like the complex tactical and strategic information that humans communicate.

Actually birds can communicate some tactical information... Corvids use a complex set of calls to communicate information and Harris Hawks and some Ground Hornbills hunt and breed cooperatively (requiring at least some modest strategic planning). It's not as complex as we can, so far as we can tell, but it's not altogether absent.

Irene Pepperberg is also having some interesting results with parrots teaching one another English (though I don't think they have anything published on it yet). Honestly, there isn't enough information on wild parrots to tell what they are communicating to one another. They are very difficult to study.

wa:do

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Actually birds can communicate some tactical information... Corvids use a complex set of calls to communicate information and Harris Hawks and some Ground Hornbills hunt and breed cooperatively (requiring at least some modest strategic planning). It's not as complex as we can, so far as we can tell, but it's not altogether absent.

Irene Pepperberg is also having some interesting results with parrots teaching one another English (though I don't think they have anything published on it yet). Honestly, there isn't enough information on wild parrots to tell what they are communicating to one another. They are very difficult to study.

wa:do

Corvids have to be the most amazing birds ever. I really have an affinity for them

 

[painted wolf]

Corvids have to be the most amazing birds ever. I really have an affinity for them

Tool users are always cool in my book. Have you seen the video of the sledding crow?
Snowboarding Crows: The Plot Thickens | The Thoughtful Animal, Scientific American Blog Network

wa:do

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Tool users are always cool in my book. Have you seen the video of the sledding crow?
Snowboarding Crows: The Plot Thickens | The Thoughtful Animal, Scientific American Blog Network

wa:do

I use to have a cat that would run and jump on a plastic bag and slide across the floor on it.

When it reached the wall it would pick up, take it back and do it all over again.

 

[Copernicus]

Actually birds can communicate some tactical information... Corvids use a complex set of calls to communicate information and Harris Hawks and some Ground Hornbills hunt and breed cooperatively (requiring at least some modest strategic planning). It's not as complex as we can, so far as we can tell, but it's not altogether absent.

Right, but that misses my point. What we normally think of as human language exists independently of the human-primate call system that we also use to communicate with. You can probably communicate a lot of "tactical" information by using non-language vocalisms such as grunts, sighs, chuckles, gasps, and so on. Call systems are still very limited in the type of information that they can convey. Birdsong also exists as a second type of vocalization that is outside the call systems of birds, but there is no evidence that their second system of communication functions like human language to convey detailed information about status, goals, plans, desires, etc.

Irene Pepperberg is also having some interesting results with parrots teaching one another English (though I don't think they have anything published on it yet). Honestly, there isn't enough information on wild parrots to tell what they are communicating to one another. They are very difficult to study.

All of this research is very exciting, and parrots do seem to have very highly developed brains. They may show some predilection for linguistic skills that most other animals do not have.

I tend to be skeptical about claims made by researchers in the area of language. We have a strong Clever Hans bias when it comes to animals, and even highly-educated researchers can lack rudimentary knowledge of linguistics. So it is easy to get away with facile claims about similarities between human language and animal communication. What is needed is a good description of the precise nature of the claimed similarity. News stories about scientific breakthroughs in this area are notoriously unreliable.

 

[shawn001]

Why not? Birds learn things from each other, they could be using language to teach each other

Crow's have a caw specifally to alert other crows of Humans.

 

[shawn001]

Actually birds can communicate some tactical information... Corvids use a complex set of calls to communicate information and Harris Hawks and some Ground Hornbills hunt and breed cooperatively (requiring at least some modest strategic planning). It's not as complex as we can, so far as we can tell, but it's not altogether absent.

Irene Pepperberg is also having some interesting results with parrots teaching one another English (though I don't think they have anything published on it yet). Honestly, there isn't enough information on wild parrots to tell what they are communicating to one another. They are very difficult to study.

wa:do

Irene Pepperberg has done great work with grey's

The Alex Foundation - Dr. Irene Pepperberg

One was that Alex, who sadly passed away might have been able to understand the concept 0.

 

[shawn001]

Reconstructing Speech from Human Auditory Cortex

Direct brain recordings from neurosurgical patients listening to speech reveal that the acoustic speech signals can be reconstructed from neural activity in auditory cortex.

PLoS Biology: Reconstructing Speech from Human Auditory Cortex

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I don't know if this has been pointed out already. But according to most researchers only a small percentage of a spoken message is actually conveyed by the words that are spoken.

One of the more popular studies is one done by Albert Mehrabian who found that communication consisted of:

55% Body Language
38% Non-verbal vocalisations
7% Spoken words

Kind of off topic, but i think it's important none the less.

 

[painted wolf]

Right, but that misses my point. What we normally think of as human language exists independently of the human-primate call system that we also use to communicate with. You can probably communicate a lot of "tactical" information by using non-language vocalisms such as grunts, sighs, chuckles, gasps, and so on. Call systems are still very limited in the type of information that they can convey. Birdsong also exists as a second type of vocalization that is outside the call systems of birds, but there is no evidence that their second system of communication functions like human language to convey detailed information about status, goals, plans, desires, etc.

I understand that... I'm not talking about birdsong, but more general communication abilities. In corvids particularly there is some evidence that they can convey information about status, plans and so on... they even practice deception. Sure it's not as detailed as with us, but i never suggested it was or would be.

All of this research is very exciting, and parrots do seem to have very highly developed brains. They may show some predilection for linguistic skills that most other animals do not have.

I tend to be skeptical about claims made by researchers in the area of language. We have a strong Clever Hans bias when it comes to animals, and even highly-educated researchers can lack rudimentary knowledge of linguistics. So it is easy to get away with facile claims about similarities between human language and animal communication. What is needed is a good description of the precise nature of the claimed similarity. News stories about scientific breakthroughs in this area are notoriously unreliable.

Agreed... and you need to be very careful in such studies.. however one of the nice things about the parrot work, is that they are speaking English... rather than simply using vaguely interpreted signs.
It's hard to argue that the parrot doesn't understand the concept of "Red" when they can consistently use the verbal word across different situations.
Now, if it can be replicated outside of Alex (the continuing goal of the project) then you can further reduce the "clever hans" possibility.

Some of the modern language experiments are doing much better are reducing the chances of the "clever hans" effect. Mostly by not having single individuals working with the animals and removing ambiguous linguistic devices like sign language. The Orangutan Language Project is a good example: Think Tank Photo Gallery: Orangutan - National Zoo| FONZ
The animals don't have humans interacting directly with them, but interact mostly with a computer screen, reducing the chance that there are unconscious signals being given by the humans.
Devices like the iPad may prove to be the biggest thing in ape cognition research, further reducing the need for direct human interaction. They are already a hit with Orangs.

wa:do

 

[cablescavenger]

What drove the evolution of language?

Communication is advantageous to survival. The fact that it is so prevalent suggests it is not only advantageous but extremely important, almost on a par with hearing and seeing, otherwise it might just be present in a few animals.