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What does John 5 say about the current and future status of Jesus Christ in relation to God, the resurrection and judgement, and life everlasting?

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Literally hasn’t changed in almost 2000 years. Pretty simple concept to understand as well. Just because you don’t understand doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It’s also funny to me you still have yet to answer any of my questions. Is the Word of God, which you say is the Holy Spirit, God? And, when did the Word become flesh?

Maybe this will help you understand how the doctrine of the Trinity works.

 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
View attachment 86437Literally hasn’t changed in almost 2000 years. Pretty simple concept to understand as well. Just because you don’t understand doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It’s also funny to me you still have yet to answer any of my questions. Is the Word of God, which you say is the Holy Spirit, God? And, when did the Word become flesh?

Maybe this will help you understand how the doctrine of the Trinity works.

The thing you showed is meaningless!!

No one ever said that the Father is the Son BUT Trinitarians DO SAY that the Son is the Father:
  • ‘I and the Father are one’
They also say that Jesus is YHWH since YHWH says He is only one saviour and Jesus says he is the only saviour…

Of course they deny it when it’s presented to them otherwise they role with it hoping to claim that since the Father is God then the Son must be God also and ipso facto, the Son is the Father….!

However, mo one says the FATHER is the Son!!!!
Strange, since I thought that equality was COMMUTATIVE !!

Worse though, no one say the Holy Spirit is the Son, not the Father? Why / Why not?

Not true, of course since Unitarian’s say the Father IS … and the Son is… and the Holy Spirit is… ALL THREE… at the same time and at different times…

Things only get more turgid when they (Both Unitarian’s and Trinitarians) try to defend their belief when the truth is presented to them.

Did Jesus create the world and all things in it?

Was it about Jesus who Moses wrote:
  • ‘In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth’
  • And GOD said, ‘Let us make man in our image’
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Correct… and what does that mean? If “the beginning” is talking about this world then Jesus is lying when He says He was with God before the world in John 17:5.
It also says that Jesus is God or is the Word not God?
Exodus 3:14 although in most versions of the Bible the whole thing is capitalized.
You know who Paul was talking to? The Ephesians. Why? Because they were already preaching false teachings. Ergo, false teachings began before 100 AD. This is seen in Timothy and Revelations as well.
1. It is found in Scripture.
2. We put Scripture together.
3. Traditions aren’t always found in Scripture either that doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
Right, Jesus was before the world was, because Jesus is part of the 'us' at Genesis 1:26
Please notice Proverbs 8:22-31 because the one speaking is said to be created.
Jesus gives credit to his God as being Creator at Rev. 4:11
So, only the Creator (Psalm 90:2) was 'before' pre-human heavenly Jesus.
Jesus being "IN" the beginning but Not 'BEFORE' the beginning of anything else - Rev. 3:14 B .
Even the resurrected by God heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Rev. 3:12.

' Most versions ' does Not mean in the original manuscripts.

Yes, Paul was speaking to Ephesian elders - Act 20:13-17, 27
Before 100 the apostles acted as a restraint, but once the 1st century ended is the warning given at Acts 20:29-30 about the apostasy.
(2nd Peter 2:1-2). Jesus did already forewarn about his own time period at Matthew 7:15.
So, Paul is pointing out 'watch out ' that from within the Christian congregation men would rise up and speak twisted things to draw away disciples for themselves (2nd Tim. 4:3) with history confirming the developing of the 'clergy / laity class', so by the 3rd century the ' religious man of lawlessness ' was already on the scene and still is - 2nd Thess. 2:2-8
False clergy seat themselves in the 'temple' (houses of worship) as if they are God when in reality they are Anti-God - verse 4.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
..................... And, when did the Word become flesh?..................
I'd like to take the liberty to comment on the ^ above ^ question because the word "Word" is a title, a function, a duty.
The Word, aka voice, mouthpiece or spokesman for someone. Jesus is the 'title' Word or a function for his God.
In other words, Jesus speaks his Father's words - John 12:49-50; John 14:10; John 7:16-17; John 5:19,30
So, even before God sent pre-human Jesus to Earth to communicate God's Will for us, God communicated to angelic sons through Jesus.
 
The thing you showed is meaningless!!

No one ever said that the Father is the Son BUT Trinitarians DO SAY that the Son is the Father:
  • ‘I and the Father are one’
They also say that Jesus is YHWH since YHWH says He is only one saviour and Jesus says he is the only saviour…

Of course they deny it when it’s presented to them otherwise they role with it hoping to claim that since the Father is God then the Son must be God also and ipso facto, the Son is the Father….!

However, mo one says the FATHER is the Son!!!!
Strange, since I thought that equality was COMMUTATIVE !!

Worse though, no one say the Holy Spirit is the Son, not the Father? Why / Why not?

Not true, of course since Unitarian’s say the Father IS … and the Son is… and the Holy Spirit is… ALL THREE… at the same time and at different times…

Things only get more turgid when they (Both Unitarian’s and Trinitarians) try to defend their belief when the truth is presented to them.

Did Jesus create the world and all things in it?

Was it about Jesus who Moses wrote:
  • ‘In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth’
  • And GOD said, ‘Let us make man in our image’
‘I and the Father are one.’ One in what? Essence. Same essence “Homoousios” but different persons.

Can a father be his son? A son comes from his father although he cannot be a father without his son. Hence why “the Son is the Father”. Again, God has ONE essence in THREE persons.

CCC245 The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381): "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father." 71 By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as "the source and origin of the whole divinity". 72 But the eternal origin of the Spirit is not unconnected with the Son's origin: "The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is God, one and equal with the Father and the Son, of the same substance and also of the same nature. . . Yet he is not called the Spirit of the Father alone,. . . but the Spirit of both the Father and the Son." 73 The Creed of the Church from the Council of Constantinople confesses: "With the Father and the Son, he is worshipped and glorified." 74

Was it about Jesus who Moses wrote:
  • ‘In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth’
  • And GOD said, ‘Let us make man in our image’
Think about this… if Jesus is God, does it make sense? You don’t have to answer just think about it.

Again… I will ask you… is the Word of God God? Yes or no? Does the Word of God become flesh?
 
God's holy spirit (Psalm 104:30) I find never becomes flesh because God's spirit is a genderless neuter " it " - Numbers 11:17,25
I know. But soapy sees the Word of God as the Holy Spirit and not Jesus. Hence why he won’t answer the two questions I’ve asked multiple times because he doesn’t have an answer for the Word of God becoming flesh. I’ll answer your reply soon I’m working rn.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
‘I and the Father are one.’ One in what? Essence. Same essence “Homoousios” but different persons.

Can a father be his son? A son comes from his father although he cannot be a father without his son. Hence why “the Son is the Father”. Again, God has ONE essence in THREE persons.

CCC245 The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381): "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father." 71 By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as "the source and origin of the whole divinity". 72 But the eternal origin of the Spirit is not unconnected with the Son's origin: "The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is God, one and equal with the Father and the Son, of the same substance and also of the same nature. . . Yet he is not called the Spirit of the Father alone,. . . but the Spirit of both the Father and the Son." 73 The Creed of the Church from the Council of Constantinople confesses: "With the Father and the Son, he is worshipped and glorified." 74


Think about this… if Jesus is God, does it make sense? You don’t have to answer just think about it.

Again… I will ask you… is the Word of God God? Yes or no? Does the Word of God become flesh?
Just a load of thrashing … just what I expected, you saw the truth and didn’t know how to reply except with nonsense.
I know. But soapy sees the Word of God as the Holy Spirit and not Jesus. Hence why he won’t answer the two questions I’ve asked multiple times because he doesn’t have an answer for the Word of God becoming flesh. I’ll answer your reply soon I’m working rn.
There’s no good coming to you from asking someone rise about me!

I’ve answered you time and time again and you expect me to change my answer?

Can the truth be changed and remain the truth?
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
‘I and the Father are one.’ One in what? Essence. Same essence “Homoousios” but different persons.
What is ‘Essence’?

Trinitarians usd this term but never say what it means…
Can a father be his son? A son comes from his father although he cannot be a father without his son. Hence why “the Son is the Father”. Again, God has ONE essence in THREE persons.
So, you’re saying that ‘Father and Son’ make the trinity?
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
… I will ask you… is the Word of God God? Yes or no? Does the Word of God become flesh?
‘The word of God is Almighty

‘The word of God is All Powerful

‘The word of God is The Most Monumental

‘The word of God is [SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVE]’

God’ is a term that means ‘The Absolute…

A GOD is someone or something that is regarded as ‘The absolute, the ultimate, the greatest, the most powerful, the most glorious, the highest, the supreme ruler …’

In pagan belief there are many who are ‘God’ but in a specific or set of specific areas a of Heaven and Creation. So each of such, a DEITY, is ‘A GOD’. And each ‘God’ is identified by A NAME.

But, in terms of the Israelites, Jews, Christians, Muslims, there is only GOD and therefore - ORIGINALLY - this one God DID NOT NEED TO BE IDENTIFIED by a name. And also, as a consequence, there was also no need to state any area of specification: ‘The God of…’ therefore He only needed to be called by the TITLE, ’GOD’, which applied to him in ALL SPECIFICATED AREAS… ‘The God of ALL areas’ - the Only God.

‘The God of all whom are called GODS’.

‘The God above all Gods’.

‘There is no God but me!’
You need to say:
  • ‘There is no GOD but US’
  • ‘Beside US there is no other God’
  • ‘We, and we alone, created all things’
  • ‘Hear, O Israel, Yahweh, are your only Gods’
But tell me this:
  • If there is a ‘Son OF GOD
  • There is a ‘Spirit OF GOD
Why isn’t there a ‘FATHER OF GOD’?
 
What is ‘Essence’?

Trinitarians usd this term but never say what it means…

So, you’re saying that ‘Father and Son’ make the trinity?
252 The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

Weird… if only there was some source where you could look up every Catholic doctrine.

Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit make up the Holy Trinity. Hence why we’re baptized in their name (notice it’s ‘name’ singular).
 
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‘The word of God is Almighty

‘The word of God is All Powerful

‘The word of God is The Most Monumental

‘The word of God is [SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVE]’

God’ is a term that means ‘The Absolute…

A GOD is someone or something that is regarded as ‘The absolute, the ultimate, the greatest, the most powerful, the most glorious, the highest, the supreme ruler …’

In pagan belief there are many who are ‘God’ but in a specific or set of specific areas a of Heaven and Creation. So each of such, a DEITY, is ‘A GOD’. And each ‘God’ is identified by A NAME.

But, in terms of the Israelites, Jews, Christians, Muslims, there is only GOD and therefore - ORIGINALLY - this one God DID NOT NEED TO BE IDENTIFIED by a name. And also, as a consequence, there was also no need to state any area of specification: ‘The God of…’ therefore He only needed to be called by the TITLE, ’GOD’, which applied to him in ALL SPECIFICATED AREAS… ‘The God of ALL areas’ - the Only God.

‘The God of all whom are called GODS’.

‘The God above all Gods’.

‘There is no God but me!’
You need to say:
  • ‘There is no GOD but US’
  • ‘Beside US there is no other God’
  • ‘We, and we alone, created all things’
  • ‘Hear, O Israel, Yahweh, are your only Gods’
But tell me this:
  • If there is a ‘Son OF GOD
  • There is a ‘Spirit OF GOD
Why isn’t there a ‘FATHER OF GOD’?
Is John 1:1 talking about “A god” or “God”?
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. I’m sure you can’t read this… notice how in the last part the word for “god/God”(black) comes BEFORE the verb(red). This is used to emphasize the importance of the word and lacks an article “the/a”. This is called Colwells Rule and is how Koine Greek is used. So unlike your Arian reading of “a god” the text states “the Word is God”.

Why isn’t there a ‘FATHER OF GOD’?
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92
 
Right, Jesus was before the world was, because Jesus is part of the 'us' at Genesis 1:26
Please notice Proverbs 8:22-31 because the one speaking is said to be created.
Jesus gives credit to his God as being Creator at Rev. 4:11
So, only the Creator (Psalm 90:2) was 'before' pre-human heavenly Jesus.
Jesus being "IN" the beginning but Not 'BEFORE' the beginning of anything else - Rev. 3:14 B .
Even the resurrected by God heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Rev. 3:12.

' Most versions ' does Not mean in the original manuscripts.

Yes, Paul was speaking to Ephesian elders - Act 20:13-17, 27
Before 100 the apostles acted as a restraint, but once the 1st century ended is the warning given at Acts 20:29-30 about the apostasy.
(2nd Peter 2:1-2). Jesus did already forewarn about his own time period at Matthew 7:15.
So, Paul is pointing out 'watch out ' that from within the Christian congregation men would rise up and speak twisted things to draw away disciples for themselves (2nd Tim. 4:3) with history confirming the developing of the 'clergy / laity class', so by the 3rd century the ' religious man of lawlessness ' was already on the scene and still is - 2nd Thess. 2:2-8
False clergy seat themselves in the 'temple' (houses of worship) as if they are God when in reality they are Anti-God - verse 4.
Yes. He’s saying that Jesus is eternal. He was there before there was anything. For God created everything with his Word.
Proverbs 8:23 Formed: since the other verbs of the origin of Wisdom in these verses describe birth, it is likely that the somewhat uncertain verb is to be understood of birth as in Psalm 139:13.
Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3 say everything was created through Christ. Or is that not what it says? Or maybe it’s that God, the Father, created all things through God, the Son.
Jesus does have someone over Him. The Father.

Original versions are written in Koine Greek in all caps without spaces. You’re point?

So can you tell me which of the successors of the apostles were the ones to fall? How long, after the death of each apostle, did each line begin to fall? Because at how we read their writings the seem to stay in agreement with their teachers before them. We did have anti-God presbyters. Arians, Martianites, Sabellians, Gnostics, etcétera.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
252 The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

Weird… if only there was some source where you could look up every Catholic doctrine.

Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit make up the Holy Trinity. Hence why we’re baptized in their name (notice it’s ‘name’ singular).
So even though you claim the term you actually do not know what it means nor how it is properly used… You quote a Bible Dictionary diatribe but nothing to show you understand what IT MEANS… explain in your own understanding to show that YOU understand!!!

You claimed that ‘I and the Father are one’ (two of your THREE persons) is proof of the trinity. Now you are backtracking when you see the absurdity of your claim!!!

There is no claim that your Jesus and the Spirit of God ARE ONE… nor the Father and the Spirit of God ARE ONE in any verse in the scriptures.

The scriptures DOES NOT EVER SHOW ANYONE baptised ‘in The name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit’.

If you think so then please present a Book, Chapter and Verse where this is shown.
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Is John 1:1 talking about “A god” or “God”?
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. I’m sure you can’t read this… notice how in the last part the word for “god/God”(black) comes BEFORE the verb(red). This is used to emphasize the importance of the word and lacks an article “the/a”. This is called Colwells Rule and is how Koine Greek is used. So unlike your Arian reading of “a god” the text states “the Word is God”.
There are such things called ‘Language Translators’, you know…!

I showed you that the word, ‘God’ is both a TITLE and a ‘Superlative Adjective’.
Hence:
  • Our God is [God]’
translates in full to:
  • He whom we worship as our deity is [THE ALMIGHTY, ALL POWERFUL, MOST GLORIOUS…]
Hence also:
  • ‘The word [of God] WAS GOD’
Translates to:
  • ‘The spoken word of our Deity was THE MOST POWERFUL, THE MOST MONUMENTAL, THE MOST GLORIOUS, THE ALMIGHTY word’ that created all things
What would you say Jesus DID in your version of creation?

GOD (???) spoke the word ‘LET THERE BE LIGHT’… So you are saying that your Jesus was ‘Let there be light’???

And you are saying that Jesus created mankind… in his image??? Yet he had to LEARN about mankind by suffering as a man… that he created? He had to be TAUGHT BY the FATHER even though it was he who brought them into being?

But Jesus is not called ‘The Father’ even as ‘THE FATHER’ means:
  • ‘The one who CREATES’
  • ‘He who brings into being…’
  • ‘He who GIVES LIFE TO…’
  • ‘He who THE HEAD…’
These are simple questions you shouldn’t be hedging over answering if your belief is true - which it isn’t …

I have never argued about ‘God or A God’ in John 1:1. You are plucking another persons argument and using that as an attempt to not answer my question. This shows you are not ‘Of God’ since someone who is ‘of God’ would not be deceitful. Let’s just say then that you misunderstood … can you please now answer my question.
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92
Ha ha ha…. I was so (sadly) amused at the pointlessness of your response. You didn’t even TRY to answer the question …

Why is there no ‘FATHER OF GOD’ since there is:
  1. ‘Son of God’
  2. ‘Spirit of God’
which are TWO of your ‘Persons’ OF GOD…

WHO is the THIRD person OF GOD?
Order irrelevant since they are supposed to be equal!!
… which beggars the question:

  • Is the Father GREATER than the Spirit of God and if not why is IT ranked LAST in the trinity ranking order?
  • Why does the Father SEND the Son, and the Spirit to mankind?
  • Why is Jesus shown in spirit (envisioned) STANDING next to the Father (God, the one who is SEATED ON THE THRONE) in heaven?
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
In John 5 Jesus Christ expresses several aspects about himself:
  1. His relation to his spiritual Father (God)
  2. Being granted authority to judge the world by the Father
  3. Being granted by the Father to give everlasting life to believers at the end of time
  4. That he, Jesus, can only do what the Father shows Him doing and that though the Father has shown him many great things, thd Father Will show him even greater things so that mankind will be amazed
Jesus Christ, the Son of man, will judge the world, give life to believers, and do many [more] amazing things in union with mankind who are saved out of the world.

What is your take on John 5 and what anomalies do you discern about what Jesus says versus what traditional beliefs teach about Jesus being Almighty God?
As a Jew, I do not accept the gospel of John. It is not reliable.
 
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