What does John 5 say about the current and future status of Jesus Christ in relation to God, the resurrection and judgement, and life everlasting?

[Soapy]

In John 5 Jesus Christ expresses several aspects about himself:

1. His relation to his spiritual Father (God)
2. Being granted authority to judge the world by the Father
3. Being granted by the Father to give everlasting life to believers at the end of time
4. That he, Jesus, can only do what the Father shows Him doing and that though the Father has shown him many great things, thd Father Will show him even greater things so that mankind will be amazed

Jesus Christ, the Son of man, will judge the world, give life to believers, and do many [more] amazing things in union with mankind who are saved out of the world.

What is your take on John 5 and what anomalies do you discern about what Jesus says versus what traditional beliefs teach about Jesus being Almighty God?

 

[Soapy]

In John 5 Jesus Christ expresses several aspects about himself:

1. His relation to his spiritual Father (God)
2. Being granted authority to judge the world by the Father
3. Being granted by the Father to give everlasting life to believers at the end of time
4. That he, Jesus, can only do what the Father shows Him doing and that though the Father has shown him many great things, thd Father Will show him even greater things so that mankind will be amazed

Jesus Christ, the Son of man, will judge the world, give life to believers, and do many [more] amazing things in union with mankind who are saved out of the world.

What is your take on John 5 and what anomalies do you discern about what Jesus says versus what traditional beliefs teach about Jesus being Almighty God?

Anyone with anything to say?

 

[Colt]

Anyone with anything to say?

Yes! God the Father delegated creative powers and authority to his Son when he came into being in the eternal past. He came down to earth in human form and lived a God revealing life. Jesus is much more than a glorified carpenter from Nazareth!

 

[King Phenomenon]

Jesus is life itself. Without him nothing would exist imo.

 

[Soapy]

Yes! God the Father delegated creative powers and authority to his Son when he came into being in the eternal past.

God, the Father (the comma is important!) delegated His power to Jesus… yes. But God also DELEGATED His powers to the Apostles as week at Pentecost. The difference between the two delegations is that Jesus received the totality of the Father’s spirit (His Power: Spirit of God) whereas the Apostles received only PORTIONS each according to the status in holiness (of sinless / sinfulness)!

He came down to earth in human form and lived a God revealing life.

Didn’t you mis-say that in another post - it’s still wrong in Any post anywhere…!

Jesus is much more than a glorified carpenter from Nazareth!

Are there people out there who says he was just a glorified carpenter?

 

[Colt]

God, the Father (the comma is important!) delegated His power to Jesus… yes. But God also DELEGATED His powers to the Apostles as week at Pentecost. The difference between the two delegations is that Jesus received the totality of the Father’s spirit (His Power: Spirit of God) whereas the Apostles received only PORTIONS each according to the status in holiness (of sinless / sinfulness)!

Didn’t you mis-say that in another post - it’s still wrong in Any post anywhere…!

Are there people out there who says he was just a glorified carpenter?

At Pentecost it was the spirit of Christ that came into the hearts of the apostles as he said he would do.

But I do recall that you think Jesus is still purely human, sitting in a little Jr chair next to the Fathers throne.

 

[Soapy]

At Pentecost it was the spirit of Christ that came into the hearts of the apostles as he said he would do.

But I do recall that you think Jesus is still purely human, sitting in a little Jr chair next to the Fathers throne.

‘Stay in Jerusalem until you receive the promise from the Father’:

• “And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised [you], which you have heard Me discuss.” (Acts 1:4)
• “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.” (John 15:26)

 

[Colt]

‘Stay in Jerusalem until you receive the promise from the Father’:

• “And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised [you], which you have heard Me discuss.” (Acts 1:4)
• “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.” (John 15:26)

Having returned to the Father after successfully caring out the incarnate service to mankind, the Son will ask the Father to allow the Sons spirit, "The Spirit of Truth" to be poured out upon all flesh. He explained it in a parabolic way.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit​

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Jesus is saying that the spirit of the Father AND Son will be in believers.

 

[Soapy]

Having returned to the Father after successfully caring out the incarnate service to mankind, the Son will ask the Father to allow the Sons spirit, "The Spirit of Truth" to be poured out upon all flesh. He explained it in a parabolic way.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit​

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Jesus is saying that the spirit of the Father AND Son will be in believers.

You said it yourself in your quote:

• “…And I will ask the Father, AND HE WILL GIVE YOU another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth….”

Jesus ASKS the Father… but it is still the Father who SENDS HIS SPIRIT to the Apostles.

Where, in any part of your quote concerning the delivery of the Spirit of the Father, does it say that Jesus PROMISED anything to the Aposties?

The promise Jesus made was after the declaration of the promise of the Father’s Spirit… and was about ‘not leaving them alone!’

Analogy: A Father gives his young son a very powerful sports car, delivered it through the elder son, then the elder son says he knows the car is very powerful and the younger might have problems handling the powerful vehicle, and because of that, the younger mustn’t worry because he (the elder) will come to the younger if he (the younger) needs help with the vehicle.

The car is a GIFT FROM THE FATHER…
It was DELIVERED by the elder Son…
The elder Son AIDS the younger Son in the management and use of the car.

 

[Colt]

You said it yourself in your quote:

• “…And I will ask the Father, AND HE WILL GIVE YOU another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth….”

Jesus ASKS the Father… but it is still the Father who SENDS HIS SPIRIT to the Apostles.

The sons spirit was sent, God spirit has always been here. You cherry pick the words of Jesus which is out of context to the entirety of the topic he was speaking about. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.

 

[Soapy]

The sons spirit was sent, God spirit has always been here. You cherry pick the words of Jesus which is out of context to the entirety of the topic he was speaking about. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.

Your quote says nothing about sending the Spirit of the Father, which is what the discussion was about.

You change the emphasis so as to fit a new theme when you realise you cannot get away from your disingenuous claims… so bad - too bad!

 

[Colt]

Your quote says nothing about sending the Spirit of the Father, which is what the discussion was about.

You change the emphasis so as to fit a new theme when you realise you cannot get away from your disingenuous claims… so bad - too bad!

I supporting what followers of Jesus have believed and known from the beginning based on what he said he would do after returning to heaven. His spirit came as promised.

 

[Soapy]

I supporting what followers of Jesus have believed and known from the beginning based on what he said he would do after returning to heaven. His spirit came as promised.

No you have not supported the what followers of Jesus believed from the beginning. Nor even what Jesus said AFTER BEING RAISED UP TO HEAVEN.

Jesus was never in Heaven before being born as a human like all mankind except Adam, of whom Jesus is the SECOND and LAST ADAM - the second and last man to be born sinless and holy, being enlivened in the body by the spirit of God, the Father.

‘His (Jesus) spirit came as promised’… Anyond in Heaven, in order to interact with humanity, does do through their spirit. God SENDS HIS SPIRIT to the apostles, and Jesus SENDS HIS Spirit to them also… BOTH the Father and the Son SEND THEIR Spirits to support the Apostles…:

1. The Father sends His Spirit as the Paraclete, the Comforter
2. Jesus sends his own spirit to support the apostles and AID THEM in the usage of the Father’s Spirit…. (See my analogy script to understand how this works!!)

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Jesus was never in Heaven before being born as a human like all mankind except Adam, of whom Jesus is the SECOND and LAST ADAM - the second and last man to be born sinless and holy, being enlivened in the body by the spirit of God, the Father

Oh dear Soapy. You really don't get the incarnation do you.

Jesus fulfilled THE PROPHECY concerning Himself.

Prophecy comes from earlier wirings...indivudals such as Isaiah for example

Isaiah9:6For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given,
and the government will be upon His shoulders.
And He will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Your statement about God delegating to a mere human man is also wrong...
Isaiah 43:8I am the LORD;
that is My name!
I will not yield My glory to another

Isaiah 43:11I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me.
12I alone decreed

Isaiah 44:6Thus says the LORD,
the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me

Isaiah 44:8Do not tremble or fear.
Have I not told you and declared it long ago?
You are My witnesses!
Is there any God but Me?
There is no other Rock;
I know not one.”

it seems the prophet Isaiah had a far better understanding of this topic than you do. And he explains to us all through the book of Isaiah exactly who Christ is. Its very obvious from this and many other cross references that Isiah is calling Christ God (capital G).

given God does not delegate his glory or authority to anyone else, your statement that Christ was given such power by the Fsther is theologically false.

The Old Testament clearly tells us that is never going to happen. So the question therefore is, how could it happen?

Answer: The Father isn't delegating His authority outside of the Godhead, He is extending His authority to Himself via the Son...ie To God.

The problem is you are incapable of understanding the true nature of the term God.

Also, the unique thing about alChrist is that He is also human...he took on the form of humanity and lived among us. That is why he refers to Himself as The Son of Man.

He has dual nature's...God and Man. He is both.

That's an incredible revelation Christ gave us...it truly highlights tye extent to which our Creator humbled Himself and became a man, then died on the cross for us in order to physically and spiritually atone for "the wages of sin" (Romans 6.23).

Physical via his crucifixion and death

Spiritually by being cut off from the Father in his darkest hours (Gethsemane - Calvery)

And let's not.forget the disciples and apostles also recognised this by quoting Isaiah

Phillipians 2

The Mind of Christ
(Isaiah 52:13–15)

5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,a

7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross.

 

[Soapy]

Oh dear Soapy. You really don't get the incarnation do you.

Jesus fulfilled THE PROPHECY concerning Himself.

Prophecy comes from earlier wirings...indivudals such as Isaiah for example

Isaiah9:6For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given,
and the government will be upon His shoulders.
And He will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Your statement about God delegating to a mere human man is also wrong...
Isaiah 43:8I am the LORD;
that is My name!
I will not yield My glory to another

Isaiah 43:11I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me.
12I alone decreed

Isaiah 44:6Thus says the LORD,
the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me

Isaiah 44:8Do not tremble or fear.
Have I not told you and declared it long ago?
You are My witnesses!
Is there any God but Me?
There is no other Rock;
I know not one.”

it seems the prophet Isaiah had a far better understanding of this topic than you do. And he explains to us all through the book of Isaiah exactly who Christ is. Its very obvious from this and many other cross references that Isiah is calling Christ God (capital G).

given God does not delegate his glory or authority to anyone else, your statement that Christ was given such power by the Fsther is theologically false.

The Old Testament clearly tells us that is never going to happen. So the question therefore is, how could it happen?

Answer: The Father isn't delegating His authority outside of the Godhead, He is extending His authority to Himself via the Son...ie To God.

The problem is you are incapable of understanding the true nature of the term God.

Also, the unique thing about alChrist is that He is also human...he took on the form of humanity and lived among us. That is why he refers to Himself as The Son of Man.

He has dual nature's...God and Man. He is both.

That's an incredible revelation Christ gave us...it truly highlights tye extent to which our Creator humbled Himself and became a man, then died on the cross for us in order to physically and spiritually atone for "the wages of sin" (Romans 6.23).

Physical via his crucifixion and death

Spiritually by being cut off from the Father in his darkest hours (Gethsemane - Calvery)

And let's not.forget the disciples and apostles also recognised this by quoting Isaiah

Phillipians 2

The Mind of Christ
(Isaiah 52:13–15)

5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,a

7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross.

So Jesus was IN THE FORM OF GOD…. The form of God IS NOT GOD but ‘like God’… ‘Like God’ is not God!!!

But even so, Jesus ‘EMPTIED HIMSELF OF BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD’ … yet REMAINED IN THE FORM OF GOD??

And there is no such thing as an INCARNATION… That term was INVENTED by Trinitarians when they couldn’t explain how Jesus was GOD and BECAME a man… yet REMAINED being GOD… There are no scripture verses that claim an incarnation nor that Jesus was BOTH God and Man…

And God was in Heaven even though he was on earth at the same time and God on earth prayed to God in Heaven for the Spirit of God even though he was God whose spirit hd was praying for… ???

So far no one has been able to invent a credible answer to how Jesus SOMETIMES ‘knew all things’ and at another time ‘did not know all things’… nor how Jesus, supposedly being Almighty God, DIED, and was resurrected again BY ALMIGHTY GOD!

And, of course, Jesus was RAISED UP TO HEAVEN BY GOD even though you say he WAS GOD… And was seated Jesus at GOD’s right hand - the position next to GOD just as David was seated next to KING Saul because David carried out all things King Saul demanded of him and Jesus fulfilled sll that GOD demanded of him!!

And, the finality, Jesus is AWARDED THE RULERSHIP of his own kingdom - the created world!!! But the created world is a far LESSER KINGDOM to that of Heaven …. What an award to your God if your God was ALREADY the ruler of the greater kingdom of Heaven!!

Answer all those questions in the spirit of truth and honesty and you might have something - answer in any other spirit and it proves you are disingenuous!!!

 

[AdamjEdgar]

So Jesus was IN THE FORM OF GOD…. The form of God IS NOT GOD but ‘like God’… ‘Like God’ is not God!!!

But even so, Jesus ‘EMPTIED HIMSELF OF BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD’ … yet REMAINED IN THE FORM OF GOD??

And there is no such thing as an INCARNATION… That term was INVENTED by Trinitarians when they couldn’t explain how Jesus was GOD and BECAME a man… yet REMAINED being GOD… There are no scripture verses that claim an incarnation nor that Jesus was BOTH God and Man…

So far no one has been able to invent a credible answer to how Jesus SOMETIMES ‘knew all things’ and at another time ‘did not know all things’… nor how Jesus, supposedly being Almighty God, DIED, and was resurrected again BY ALMIGHTY GOD!

And, of course, Jesus was RAISED UP TO HEAVEN BY GOD even though you say he WAS GOD… And was seated Jesus at GOD’s right hand - the position next to GOD just as David was seated next to KING Saul because David carried out all things King Saul demanded of him and Jesus fulfilled sll that GOD demanded of him!!

And, the finality, Jesus is AWARDED THE RULERSHIP of his own kingdom - the created world!!! But the created world is a far LESSER KINGDOM to that of Heaven …. What an award to your God if your God was ALREADY the ruler of the greater kingdom of Heaven!!

Answer all those questions in the spirit of truth and honesty and you might have something - answer in any other spirit and it proves you are disingenuous!!!

Soap what you are attempting to claim is the following (and this is true of all non trinitarians)

God, created a being (Christ), elevated that being to a Godlike status, and bribed that being into dying on the cross for the wages of sin.

This is the very same God who clearly says multiple time in Isaiah, "I DO NOT DELEGATE MY AUTHORITY, OR MY ABILITY TO FORGIVE SINS, OR MY ABILITY TO ATONE FOR SIN, TO ANYONE!"

See unlike the foolishness of your theological views, trinitarians understand the Gospel (which you do not get).

The Gospel is this:

God, took on the form of His own Creation and became a man (Christ) and died for the wages of sin. Only God can atone for sin...the blood of sheep and goats is not capable of achieving that.

May i ask, who are Gods sheep? Are they not us...ie mankind?

How then can a sheep save itself?

you are claiming God created a super sheep in order to make atonement for sin. Does that not justify Lucifer's claim against God in heaven...that God is self-serving and selfish...and that God would not be willing to die for His own creation?

And wasnt it Lucifer who wanted all of that power and glory in heaven? The very charge Satan makes against God is also the very thing he wants for himself.

Do you not see the consistency in the above belief regarding the trinity, the Gospel and therefore salvation? That is why it is the correct understanding of the nature of Christ. You cannot have salvation unless Christ is God...and not just any god (lower g)...the one true God...our Creator.

BTW those who believ Christ is god (delegated authority god with a lower case g) are polytheists...and that is heresy according to the Bible. Which according to the Jewish religion, is false...hence the traditional Jews will not accept Christ is God (Yahweh).

And here we have Soapy trying to prove to us that a mere man has been elevated to the status of Yahweh! You are trying to prove that mankind can cause his own salvation by following in Christ's footsteps...ie by miraculously being elevated to some kind of "Little Yahweh", shedding our own blood, and saving ourselves!

 

[Soapy]

Soap what you are attempting to claim is the following (and this is true of all non trinitarians)

God, created a being (Christ), elevated that being to a Godlike status, and bribed that being into dying on the cross for the wages of sin.

This is the very same God who clearly says multiple time in Isaiah, "I DO NOT DELEGATE MY AUTHORITY, OR MY ABILITY TO FORGIVE SINS, OR MY ABILITY TO ATONE FOR SIN, TO ANYONE!"

See unlike the foolishness of your theological views, trinitarians understand the Gospel (which you do not get).

The Gospel is this:

God, took on the form of His own Creation and became a man (Christ) and died for the wages of sin. Only God can atone for sin...the blood of sheep and goats is not capable of achieving that.

May i ask, who are Gods sheep? Are they not us...ie mankind?

How then can a sheep save itself?

you are claiming God created a super sheep in order to make atonement for sin. Does that not justify Lucifer's claim against God in heaven...that God is self-serving and selfish...and that God would not be willing to die for His own creation?

And wasnt it Lucifer who wanted all of that power and glory in heaven? The very charge Satan makes against God is also the very thing he wants for himself.

Do you not see the consistency in the above belief regarding the trinity, the Gospel and therefore salvation? That is why it is the correct understanding of the nature of Christ. You cannot have salvation unless Christ is God...and not just any god (lower g)...the one true God...our Creator.

BTW those who believ Christ is god (delegated authority god with a lower case g) are polytheists...and that is heresy according to the Bible. Which according to the Jewish religion, is false...hence the traditional Jews will not accept Christ is God (Yahweh).

Well, you don’t seem to recognise the fact that you just proved the trinitarian view to be false.

Trinitarians DO BELIEVE that Jesus was elevated to the status of God… Even as they claim Jesus WAS GOD… which is quite a feat even for God, himself!

The point is that when you read those parts where trini’s elevate Jesus to God status you justify it as true… Yet here you are saying that you believe it is False!!!

Well done!!

And here we have Soapy trying to prove to us that a mere man has been elevated to the status of Yahweh! You are trying to prove that mankind can cause his own salvation by following in Christ's footsteps...ie by miraculously being elevated to some kind of "Little Yahweh", shedding our own blood, and saving ourselves!

And you got that wrong… I’m not trying to prove that a mere man was elevated to God status. There is no one who speaks the truth who ever says that Jesus was a mere man. This term ‘mere man’ is not in the truth speakers vocabulary. It is, though, used by false teachers and speakers who CLAIM that the truth speaker says so…

No, Jesus was not a mere man. We truth speakers say that Jesus was the SECOND ADAM… and the LAST ADAM!! The FIRST ADAM was created by the in dwelling of a Spirit from the Spirit of God. This means that the first Adam was HOLY… Sinless… A son of God!!

And so also was the second/last Adam… Holy, Sinless… A son of God.

Feel free to ask for refinement on the revelation (to you) of the truth given above.

 

[Betho_br]

In John 5 Jesus Christ expresses several aspects about himself:

1. His relation to his spiritual Father (God)
2. Being granted authority to judge the world by the Father
3. Being granted by the Father to give everlasting life to believers at the end of time
4. That he, Jesus, can only do what the Father shows Him doing and that though the Father has shown him many great things, thd Father Will show him even greater things so that mankind will be amazed

Jesus Christ, the Son of man, will judge the world, give life to believers, and do many [more] amazing things in union with mankind who are saved out of the world.

What is your take on John 5 and what anomalies do you discern about what Jesus says versus what traditional beliefs teach about Jesus being Almighty God?

1) The Gospel of John conveys the doctrine of Unity, a concept that can be traced not only in the Old Testament of Judaism but also in Islam.
2) Various faith traditions share the belief that on the Day of Judgment, even spiritual beings will undergo divine scrutiny.
3) The Eternal Life is also given by the fulfillment of the Torah. Matthew 19:16-17 and Luke 16:28-29 KJV.
4) The greatest work we can do on Earth is our inner reform.

 

[Soapy]

1) The Gospel of John conveys the doctrine of Unity, a concept that can be traced not only in the Old Testament of Judaism but also in Islam.
2) Various faith traditions share the belief that on the Day of Judgment, even spiritual beings will undergo divine scrutiny.
3) The Eternal Life is also given by the fulfillment of the Torah. Matthew 19:16-17 and Luke 16:28-29 KJV.
4) The greatest work we can do on Earth is our inner reform.

It always concerns me when ‘ten questions’ are asked but ‘only nine’ are answered!

 

[Betho_br]

Silence is also an eloquent response.