What do you think of Purgatory?

[muhammad_isa]

No, I am Not saying A&E could have jumped off a mountain top because that would Not show respect for life.

Come off it..
You are saying that people live forever on "paradise earth".

It was just an example, of showing mortality.
Would Adam have died, or not?

 

[Dogknox20]

It does..


..and they are still waiting..
..so are we .. we are waiting for Jesus to return.
He will usher in a 1000 year era of global peace, where satan is "chained in a pit".


Do you hate Jews?
I don't.

..but I am not in favour of Zionism and oppression.
No .. not at all !

Matthew 1:16
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

Christ
Name and title Christ, used by Christians as both a name and a title, unambiguously refers to Jesus. It is also used as a title, in the reciprocal use "Christ Jesus", meaning "the Messiah Jesus", and independently a…
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=6578...cGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvQ2hyaXN0Xyh0aXRsZSk&ntb=1
The Christ came for the Jews, but they rejected him, they were looking for a powerful king to destroy their enemy! So, they are waiting!
When Jesus comes back it will be at the end of time! The Jews will accept their Christ eventually!
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

 

[Dogknox20]

OK, lets start with John 20:17 which comes first before verse 28.
To me Jesus is clear in verse 17 that he was going to ascend to his Father and to their Father, and to his God and their God.
Just as a reporter when interviewing someone and the person in front of the reporter says, " Oh, my God ! " we know the person is not meaning the reporter is God but rather the statement is directed to God.
Jesus was Not telling a lie at John 20:17
After verse 2 at Matthew 17:9 we find the word VISION.
Jesus instructs to tell the transfiguration VISION to no one.
Thus, the transfiguration vision was a vision or a foregleam of Jesus' coming Glory Time at Matthew 25:31-34.
I find Matthew chapter 17 ends at verse 27 there is no verse 31 or 32 there.
I think you have in mind Matthew 22:31-32 or Luke 20:37-38 and I find Romans 4:17 helps answer.
God called them as if they are living which were not but as though they were alive.
'As though they were alive' because their names are penciled in the Book of Life.
So, in God's eyes a future resurrection for them is a done deal.
Jesus will resurrect them - John 6:40. A living person does Not need a resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
ALL those names listed in God's Hall of Fame are still awaiting the promise - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39.
The Resurrection Day promise ( Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years )

.
You forget Jesus is a Man... The Man Jesus has a God "He calls God his Father"!
URAVIP2ME You forget "The Word" became flesh and lived with us!"
God "The Word" was spirit, God the Word took on flesh God the Word became "Spirit (God) and Man (Flesh)! Jesus is God/Man!
Thoms tells you Jesus is his God!

You forget "Worship is ONLY for God"!
Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”
Jesus knows beyond all doubt: Worship only God! Jesus would be worse than Satan by having anyone worship him!
Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.
URAVIP2ME They worship Jesus at his birth!

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” NEVER....
URAVIP2ME never can you find scriptures where Jesus corrects them saying "Don't worship me; Worship is only for God"! Because Jesus IS God!

And they worship Jesus at the end of his time on earth.
Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.
URAVIP2ME never can you find scriptures where Jesus corrects them saying "Don't worship me; Worship is only for God"! Because Jesus IS God!
Matthew 28:17
When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Worship is Only For God.. Jesus allows Christians to worship him!
Thomas is a Christian Jesus is his Lord & God!
All who don't believe as Thomas are NOT Blessed!
.
Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins! Jesus is God incarnate! Only God is perfect ONLY God is perfect... Jesus had no sins.. All are sinners.. Only God is Perfect!
Jesus rose from the grave because he was sinless death could not hold Jesus because the wage of sin is death. Proving: Jesus/ God is Perfect!

.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Come off it..You are saying that people live forever on "paradise earth". It was just an example, of showing mortality. Would Adam have died, or not?

Sure, disobeying God leads to death. If Adam chose to jump to his death he would have died.
Who would say otherwise. We can always opt out of the everlasting life offer.
Yes, if Adam obeyed/listened to God he would have lived forever on a paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample blueprint start.
Adam was a living soul and if he killed himself he would become an extinct dead soul.
Jesus never taught to jump off a mountain.
Even the angels are mortal and subject to death if they rebel against God's provision for them.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

As we know the Bible was not originally written in English.
When translated from the Greek those translators at that time choose the word: worship.
The Greek word carries the meaning of doing obeisance as in bowing down but does Not have to mean worship.
There is a different Greek word for worship used at Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22:8-9
Remember God can Not die. God is from and to everlasting
Jesus died and did Not resurrect himself, but his God resurrected dead Jesus.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God OVER him - Revelation 3:12

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sure, disobeying God leads to death. If Adam chose to jump to his death he would have died.
Who would say otherwise. We can always opt out of the everlasting life offer.
Yes, if Adam obeyed/listened to God he would have lived forever on a paradisical Earth as Eden was a sample blueprint start..

That's just being pedantic..
What if Adam lost his footing while on the mountain, and didn't fall intentionally?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Remember God can Not die..

Of course not. He is Eternal.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's just being pedantic..
What if Adam lost his footing while on the mountain, and didn't fall intentionally?

Right now our bodies and our minds are imperfect.
That does Not have to mean that will be the case when mankind is sin free and in perfect health.
In other words, we can have perfect awareness.
Besides: remember Jesus will regulate the weather as he did at Mark 6:51; Mark 4:39.
So, nothing will be beyond Jesus ability to insure our safety.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..In other words, we can have perfect awareness.
...
..nothing will be beyond Jesus ability to insure our safety.

..so Adam couldn't have had an accident .. "superman" would have whooshed down and saved him.

In that case, Jesus could have saved him, and stopped him eating the forbidden fruit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry .. but it just doesn't make any sense to me.
You take the creation story too literally for me.

I see that Adam & Eve were "in paradise" until they became aware of their nakedness.
They lost their innocence .. they were no longer "virgins".

There was no way that they could have avoided it.
Almighty God knows what He creates, and He is omniscient.
He knew that Adam and Eve would fall into temptation.

 

[pearl]

In the pre-Vatican II liturgy there was prayer for the 'souls of purgatory'. Rather than change a teaching its simply gone silent.

 

[Dogknox20]

As we know the Bible was not originally written in English.
When translated from the Greek those translators at that time choose the word: worship.
The Greek word carries the meaning of doing obeisance as in bowing down but does Not have to mean worship.
There is a different Greek word for worship used at Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22:8-9
Remember God can Not die. God is from and to everlasting
Jesus died and did Not resurrect himself, but his God resurrected dead Jesus.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God OVER him - Revelation 3:12

.
URAVIP2ME Jesus was a man/God! The man Jesus died but he was perfect "Sinless" so he rose again Only...

URAVIP2ME only God is perfect thus Jesus cannot die!! The Son has the same “spirit nature” as his Father, which makes him “a God” or “a mighty God.”
Also.........
Once again it is proven: The Jehovah’s Witnesses twist the words of God... The Greek word in Hebrews 1:6 that the NWT translates to “obeisance” is proskuneo.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him.”
NWT Hebrews 1:6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels do obeisance to him.'
Do you see it the word proskuneo in NWT Hebrews 1:6 is twisted to obeisance ? NOT ONE....

URAVIP2ME not one of the 59 bible translations done by bible scholars uses the word "obeisance" (Bible gateway online) in Hebrews 1:6 no not one!
URAVIP2ME The New World Translation of the Bible used by Jehovah’s Witnesses renders proskuneo as “worship” when the verb has God the Father as its direct object, and even when the word is used to describe the worship of a false god, such as the Beast in Revelation 13. But when proskuneo is used of Jesus, the NWT always translates it as “obeisance” and never as “worship.”

Revelation 13:15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship (proskuneo )the image to be killed.
Jehovah’s Witnesses NWT Revelation 13:15 And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship (proskuneo) the image of the wild beast.

Jehovah’s Witnesses NWT Luke 24:52 And they did obeisance (proskuneo) to him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.
URAVIP2ME Again not one of 59 bible translations by scripture scholars do they use the word obeisance! They translate it to Worship!
And they worshiped Him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Whenever an apostle or angel is mistaken for God in the New Testament, the worshipped person corrects those who are worshipping him. When the Greeks in Lystra mistook Paul and Barnabas for the gods Zeus and Hermes, the two men tore their garments. They reminded the crowd that they were humans and implored them to worship the true God who made heaven and earth (Acts 14:14–15). In Revelation 19:10, the apostle John falls at the feet of an angel to worship him, but the angel tells him, “You must not do that!” Yet Jesus did not correct Thomas when he referred to Jesus as “my Lord and my God!” John 20:28.

URAVIP2ME This should lead you to the conclusion that, when it came to Thomas’s statement of faith, there was nothing to be corrected. If that is the case, then you should imitate Thomas and not be afraid to address Jesus as our “Lord and God” as well. Jesus told Thomas all who believe as he does in the future will be blessed thus you cannot be blessed because you reject Thomas' statement "My Lord and God"!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..so Adam couldn't have had an accident .. "superman" would have whooshed down and saved him.
In that case, Jesus could have saved him, and stopped him eating the forbidden fruit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry .. but it just doesn't make any sense to me. You take the creation story too literally for me.
I see that Adam & Eve were "in paradise" until they became aware of their nakedness.
They lost their innocence .. they were no longer "virgins".
There was no way that they could have avoided it.
Almighty God knows what He creates, and He is omniscient.
He knew that Adam and Eve would fall into temptation.

Even perfect people have free-will choices.
Married Adam used his free will to do wrong.
Adam in his sinless state did Not choose to jump off a mountain.

Adam and Eve were husband and wife ( meaning: they were Not virgins - Genesis 2:24 )
Because God created all in heaven (angels) and people on earth as free to choose then God gifted that to creation.
So, No, it was by free-willed choice both Satan and Adam chose wrong freely - James 1:13-15
In other words, God forces nor makes any one to worship Him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Before what Thomas said at John 20:28 , please notice earlier what Jesus already said at John 20:17.
Jesus was going to ascend (Not to himself) but ascend to his Father...... ascend to his God....
Jesus did Not appear in front of himself - Hebrews 9:24
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12
So, by Thomas exclaiming " My Lord and my God " was like a person exclaiming in front of a reporter, "Oh, my God "
and we know the person is Not directing his words to the reporter as being their God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus was a man/God!

Is that why "the church" creates statues of him?

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

Tut, tut..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In the pre-Vatican II liturgy there was prayer for the 'souls of purgatory'. Rather than change a teaching its simply gone silent.

When my uncle died the priest said to pray for him to be acquitted from sin - (how odd considering Romans 6:7, 23)
Plus, pay for masses to get him out of purgatory.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Is that why "the church" creates statues of him?
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Tut, tut..

Yes, the churches of 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only )
Part of the MANY who play false to Jesus just as he warned at Matthew 7:21-23
They are the fake 'weed/tares' Christians Jesus warned against.

 

[pearl]

When my uncle died the priest said to pray for him to be acquitted from sin - (how odd considering Romans 6:7, 23)
Plus, pay for masses to get him out of purgatory.

The language of dogma develops. I think originally the idea of Purgatory was related to 2 Macc 6:18–7:42, of Eleazer and of a mother with her seven sons caught the imagination of medieval Christians. Several churches are dedicated to the "Maccabeean martyrs", and they are among the very few pre-Christian figures to appear on the Catholic calendar of saints' days. The book is considered the first model of the medieval stories of the martyrs. Hebrews 11:35 is a possible reference to this event.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The language of dogma develops. I think originally the idea of Purgatory was related to 2 Macc 6:18–7:42, of Eleazer and of a mother with her seven sons caught the imagination of medieval Christians. Several churches are dedicated to the "Maccabeean martyrs", and they are among the very few pre-Christian figures to appear on the Catholic calendar of saints' days. The book is considered the first model of the medieval stories of the martyrs. Hebrews 11:35 is a possible reference to this event.

Thank you for your reply.
To me Hebrews 11:35 is in reference to 1 Kings 17:22-24; 2 Kings 4:32; 2 Kings 4:34.

It's been decades since I've read 1st Machabees & 2nd Machabees.
I have totally forgotten about 2 Macc.6:18-7:42.
Under chapter 6 Douay I find the subheading " Antiochus Abolishes the Jewish law "
Especially in chapter 7 there I made note of verses 9,14,16-17,19,23,28-29,31-33,36 along with a reference to the Mourner's Kaddish at 2 Macc.12:43-45.
I have a note that reads," atonement for the dead 'gone to rest ' might be freed from sin. No one can help those in hell (biblical hell being the biblical temporary stone-cold grave for those ' gone to rest ') Jesus helped "
Jesus helped because Jesus resurrected his friend - John 11:43-44.
In other words, Jesus resurrected his 4-day dead friend out of biblical hell aka the grave - John 11:11-14.
Whereas, the New Catholic Encyclopedia points out about purgatory, " .......this pain is imposed through real fire."
Thus, the principle passage which implies purgatory, Not chapters 6-7, but rather found at 2 Macc. 12:38-46.
Verse 43 B shows Judas had, Not purgatory in mind, but resurrection of the dead in view.
Verse 45 mentions those who had 'fallen asleep' ( Not meaning gone to bed but fallen asleep in death )
To me, this is showing purgatory is based on church tradition over sacred Scripture.

 

[Muffled]

Adam and Eve were in paradise, the paradisical Garden of Eden and offered eternal life on a paradise Earth.
The coming end of the world of badness ( 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13) is when the sheep and goats are separated.
That is the last judgement -> for the living on Earth at Jesus' coming Glory Time of separation - Matthew 25:31-34,37
Then, we have a thousand-year judgement day aka Jesus' Millennium-Long Day judging over Earth.
This is when the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected - John 6:40; Acts of the Apostles 24:15
They are resurrected on Earth, an Earth that will become like the paradisical Garden of Eden originally was.
During Jesus' 1,000 year reign over Earth biblical hell/grave will ' deliver up ' its dead - Revelation 20:13-14
After everyone in biblical hell/grave is resurrected out of biblical hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated biblical hell grave.
Sinner Satan never was and never will be in any hell.
Sinner Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
Sinner Satan is destroyed by Jesus - Hebrews 2:14 B ( gone forever )
ALL the wicked are: destroyed - Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
Sinner Satan is wicked, and No wicked person (human or angelic) can gain everlasting life anywhere.

I believe the Garden of Eden may have been a paradise but the paradise Jesus speaks of is not on this planet.

 

[Muffled]

Tell me .. do you want to live forever?
If so, why?

I would be quite content to sleep forever knowing nothing.
..no such luck .. life is not that easy .. never has been .. never will be!

We are accountable .. not one of us is guaranteed not to suffer after our death.
We all rely on God's Mercy. We should not think too highly of ourselves.

Half of faith is hope in God's Mercy .. the other half is fear of His wrath.

A person who is convicted of a serious crime will be executed or imprisoned.
It does not depend on whether the person is a believer or not .. and quite rightly so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

..so you want to live forever. pfff .. I believe I will live forever, as we all do.
I have no choice in the matter .. killing myself won't help.

I believe that applies to the temporal. However entry into the Kingdom of God and everlasting life is not dependent on a special case of mercy but on the person's willingness to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.