What can happen when you believe nonsense...

[IndigoChild5559]

Not sure what the debate was because I don't think anyone could debate honestly that what that person did wasn't mentally deranged. Makes one wonder what else may have been going on in that child's life that he didn't want to take a bath, maybe he was molested by someone and he equated bath time with abuse? Or maybe just didn't like baths who knows and it's probably not good to speculate but still such a violent reaction had to come from somewhere.

It sounds to me like the child just had a normal temper tantrum. Gosh, Lord knows I had them when I was a kid. Thankfully my parents weren't psychotic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is a bad argument. Drunk driving is not a belief system.

People believe they can safely do it, and believe they don't pose as great of a risk as they actually do. And it is a good argument because both deal with public safety and the well being of those who are not the one carrying out these destructive actions. Once that line is crossed, you've lost the "right" to be peacefully left alone.

Prescientific cultures functioned.

Society functioned when emptying chamber pots onto public streets was common. We functioned before we realized blood has the potential for carrying diseases. We even survived the height of unfettered and unbridled Capitalism and Industrialism, and things functioned. But that's not even the issue. It's acting on beliefs in a way that has detrimental outcomes for others. Once that happens, damn things like "tradition" and "culture." Their beliefs are harming others, and that is not cool, good, acceptable, moral, or ethical, especially as the can provide no real reason to do it, as a volcano will blow or not whether or not a human is needlessly butchered. There are no demons, we know that now, and yet people still die--even in "modern," developed Western and Eastern nations--because people continue to believe in things that have the potential to pose a danger to others.

Of course if someone is breaking the law, yes we should be concerned.

The point is that the law gives religion a bull**** free pass on breaking the law. Such as Idaho, where religious parents can get off without penalty if they kill their child.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And if not for "factory farms" providing a steady source of meat, animals and their natural habitat would have been invaded by us predators known as humans and reduced it down to many times smaller than what it is today.

Do you have any idea how much meat from factory farms is wasted? And what do you think factory farms are? They are us, humans, invading and slaughtering, destroying habitat and driving other species to extinction, just we can have an unsustainable supply of meat to waste that contributes more to climate change than cars do.
DNR programs, fees collecting for hunting and fishing license, admittance fees into state and national parks, THOSE help protect wildlife and plants. It's not an all out engorge fest of gluttony that a factory farm is, but regulated and strict limits as to how many animals can be harvested.

Those who have ventured out into the wilderness and actually saw the reality of nature knows what I'm talking about.

You think I haven't? However, we are not the only sentient animals on this planet, and most certainly we would object if another species were to farm and hunt us for food, so it stands that we must consider the fact our consumption of meat does kill a living and sentient being.

it's nothing but propagandas of a Lion King fantasy world where animals and humans live harmoniously singing ku bye ya.

Actually, the Lion King was very about the "circle of life" were the top dogs on the food chain get to eat those below them.

And the fact that majority of humans consume meat.

Yup. And most of us really don't need to, and especially in the West most eat an unhealthy amount. We evolved to eat mostly fruits and vegetables, and to eat meat sparingly, which is most certainly not with every meal or even daily. And there is evidence that does suggest eating small amounts of meat (along with many other factors outside of diet) does lead to a longer life. But what the average American thinks of as a small amount would still be more than what the longest-lived populations of humans eat.

So the lives of animals are and will die.

Yes, but so many of us don't require it. So much of the world could give up meat today and we'd be just fine.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It sounds to me like the child just had a normal temper tantrum. Gosh, Lord knows I had them when I was a kid. Thankfully my parents weren't psychotic.

Yup. It goes hand-in-hand with the thread asking if religious fundamentalism is a mental illness. It was my conclusion that a bad "ideology/thought diet" can lead to poor mental health just as regular poor diet can lead to poor physical health. And this OP fits in with what seems that religion can induce mental illness by doing things such as severing normal empathy between parent and child. In this case, the wails and thrashes of his child doing nothing to emotionally get him to stop to consider what he was doing, under any other circumstances, without question or doubt it would be considered mentally ill. But because he's "religious" we're suddenly expected to shift our expectations and limitations? This is why such thinking is dangerous bull****.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

We're fishing certain fish into extenction,

Sources for that? Because a lot of fish are farm-raised.

factory farming is a major contribution to climate change

No, it's really not. In the US, agriculture as a whole (this includes crops) accounts for only 8% of emissions. 65 billion tons of CO2 in total 302 million (4.6%) of that is fertilizer for crops. 170 million (2.6%) is methane expulsion from livestock. 65 million (1%) is from managing livestock manure. 60 million (0.9%) from direct emissions of farming. 40 million (0.6%) from agriculture related electricity use. Totaling up for...8.1%. Not so major.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Where is the modern wisdom that's going to lead us away from where we're heading. We need teleology of some kind. That's exactly what so much old wisdom was interested in: why we are here and what we should be doing. And for everything science figures out, 10 new mysteries arise. People like answers. And if you're going to be an evangelical humanist, you have to actually provide those

We find them in bettering ourselves and doing our part to help build a better society. Turning to gods and demons, karma and eternal bliss and punishment, we've been doing that and other superstitious behaviors for hundreds and thousands of years, and it hasn't gotten us much. We didn't know of the great mystery that is life and existence because we pretended our religions had all the answers. But we found they were wrong, and that we didn't know, or still don't know in some cases. Religion, that's gotten us a lot of wars, lots of oppression, lots of violence, and the trend in dead kids continues today.
And where are we heading? The amount of major wars and armed conflicts is down in much of the world. Much of the world is seeing a consistent decrease in crime that has been going on for decades now. So many of us, our chances of a violent death have never been lower, and our chances of living long enough to die from complications of old age has never been better. We've made great progress in addressing global hunger and disease. Women's rights and minority rights have also saw significant gains. Of course things aren't perfect, and we do still have much more work to do, but "where we're heading" has never really looked better despite the problems we currently have.

 

[Windwalker]

People believe they can safely do it, and believe they don't pose as great of a risk as they actually do.

People believing they can drive safely while drunk is not a belief system. A belief system is a set of set of shared beliefs with others which creates a basic structure for our worldviews to be held with others in society. I'm talking about shared beliefs in a system of shared beliefs, not some some drunk who believes he'll be ok behind the wheel. That not a belief "system". There's no system to it.

And it is a good argument because both deal with public safety and the well being of those who are not the one carrying out these destructive actions. Once that line is crossed, you've lost the "right" to be peacefully left alone.

Are suggesting belief systems should be outlawed? Would you like to see all atheists rounded up and made outlaws for not believing in God? You can't outlaw beliefs, only negative actions.

Society functioned when emptying chamber pots onto public streets was common. We functioned before we realized blood has the potential for carrying diseases. We even survived the height of unfettered and unbridled Capitalism and Industrialism, and things functioned.

They may not have been the Ritz, but they did function. If they didn't, we wouldn't be able to talk about them today, because they would never have survived. What level of quality you may measure them with, is besides the point. They were functional, and served a purpose for a long, long, long time. Beliefs in spirits and demons served a function for them.

And I'm sure they had mentally ill too, who took things to horrible ends.

But that's not even the issue. It's acting on beliefs in a way that has detrimental outcomes for others. Once that happens, damn things like "tradition" and "culture."

One thing you might not be thinking of, is that even in those primitive societies with beliefs in spirits and demons, they didn't necessarily excuse behaviors that took those beliefs to extreme and deadly ends. They had laws too.

Their beliefs are harming others, and that is not cool, good, acceptable, moral, or ethical, especially as the can provide no real reason to do it, as a volcano will blow or not whether or not a human is needlessly butchered.

No. Their beliefs are not harming someone. Their actions are. Not everyone with those beliefs, take actions on them like this, like pouring boiling water down the throat of a child. Even in primitive times, that person would have probably been killed for doing that. That person was dangerous, not because of the beliefs he shared with everyone else.

There are no demons, we know that now, and yet people still die--even in "modern," developed Western and Eastern nations--because people continue to believe in things that have the potential to pose a danger to others.

The point is that the law gives religion a bull**** free pass on breaking the law. Such as Idaho, where religious parents can get off without penalty if they kill their child.

Again, I think you are saying that the beliefs cause these dangerous situations. I don't think that's as supportable a position as you would like it to be. I agree that those who harm their children should be prosecuted. It's considered a matter of public safety.

Are you so sure back in premodern times when beliefs like this were prevalent, that they didn't have laws against pouring boiling water down your child's throat? Or do you honestly believe that was par for the course, everyone did that sort of thing back then, and nobody would say or do anything in response?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are suggesting belief systems should be outlawed?

I have not once suggested so. However, when beliefs pose a risk and danger to others, they should be challenged, questioned, and discouraged.

They may not have been the Ritz, but they did function.

Just because something works doesn't mean it works or functions well.

And I'm sure they had mentally ill too, who took things to horrible ends.

Don't forget about those who weren't ill, but had nothing but beliefs in the supernatural and all the horrible things they felt justified in doing because of their beliefs.

One thing you might not be thinking of, is that even in those primitive societies with beliefs in spirits and demons, they didn't necessarily excuse behaviors that took those beliefs to extreme and deadly ends. They had laws too.

I'm aware. However, I'm also aware that one village's shaman is another village's sorcerer, and I'm aware of village shamans in some parts who carry armed shotguns with them because of other villages believe they are evil.

Again, I think you are saying that the beliefs cause these dangerous situations. I don't think that's as supportable a position as you would like it to be.

The very OP supports it. The thread about fundamentalism being a mental illness supports it. If you remove the belief in demonic possession, this child would still be alive.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

If you remove the belief in demonic possession

Good luck with that. Here you're not talking about Belief Systems or Religions, you're talking about individually held beliefs. Widespread, perhaps, but individually held. Hell, even the church now teaches that demonic possession is a metaphor; I remember once we had a presentation from an actual, blessed-by-Jesus, Ordained by the Vatican exorcist, and he explained to us that his profession is more along the lines of a Spiritual Psychologist. That "demons" are manifestations of underlying trauma and disorders, to be treated not with holy water and leather straps, but counselling and faith.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Good luck with that. Here you're not talking about Belief Systems or Religions, you're talking about individually held beliefs. Widespread, perhaps, but individually held. Hell, even the church now teaches that demonic possession is a metaphor; I remember once we had a presentation from an actual, blessed-by-Jesus, Ordained by the Vatican exorcist, and he explained to us that his profession is more along the lines of a Spiritual Psychologist. That "demons" are manifestations of underlying trauma and disorders, to be treated not with holy water and leather straps, but counselling and faith.

Yeah. Lets look at places and cultures where such beliefs aren't as common. There may be no fully and completely getting rid of it, but Nietzsche did proclaim god dead for a reason.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Mm. So basically what the Christians tried to do with those damned Pagan beliefs. a) Look how well that didn't turn out. And b) How is that any better? Something else is just going to crop up. Next we'll have children being beaten in the name of Science and Reason for having "imaginary friends" through belief in gods.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

. We've made great progress in addressing global hunger and disease. Women's rights and minority rights have also saw significant gains. Of course things aren't perfect, and we do still have much more work to do, but "where we're heading" has never really looked better despite the problems we currently have.

Yeah I mean, the ocean are getting poisoned, the amazon jungle burned down, homelessness is on the rise, nations are in possession of nuclear firepower, and everything's heading toward greatness. Sure

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah I mean, the ocean are getting poisoned, the amazon jungle burned down, homelessness is on the rise, nations are in possession of nuclear firepower, and everything's heading toward greatness. Sure

As I said, it's not perfect, and we still have work to do. But, overall, trends of many things have been going in a good direction, and so many of us are enjoying a quality and peace in life that not even kings of old knew. Making progress, however, doesn't mean it all has to be good right now.

 

[ajay0]

If you're quoting Nietzsche like that you have a lot to learn. Or do you buy into the Nazi blonde haired beast?

You quoted some of his love for music and so on, I quoted his sayings on nihilism.

Or do you buy into the Nazi blonde haired beast?

Well, I do know that the Nazis wiped out millions of Jews, gypsies and Slavs with clinical efficiency.

Nietzsche rejected conventional norms, but he wasn't a fan of nihism. The "God is dead" bit, that's more of a call to action because Nietzsche did reject nihilism as far as having no meanings, values, or purpose.
Nietzsche & Values | Issue 29 | Philosophy Now
To consider Nietzsche a nihilist is to completely miss his deep passion for life, which is where Nietzsche shines as a brilliant, radiant star.

I don't associate Nietzche alone exclusively with nihilism but his philosophical teachings did have an underlying theme of destructive nihilism in order to violently create a new world order with 'progressive values', along with his advocation of German power, and the pleasure with which he perceived the world's alarm at Germany's fast increasing military and technological development at those times.

I grant that, he was not an antisemite as he admired Jewish proficiency in commerce and banking and termed them as 'clever bankers' which was necessary for German development into a world superpower.

The point I am making here is that halfbaked western philosophies like nihilism and existentialism can be potentially dangerous in the wrong hands or heads.

 

[night912]

Do you have any idea how much meat from factory farms is wasted? And what do you think factory farms are? They are us, humans, invading and slaughtering, destroying habitat and driving other species to extinction, just we can have an unsustainable supply of meat to waste that contributes more to climate change than cars do.
DNR programs, fees collecting for hunting and fishing license, admittance fees into state and national parks, THOSE help protect wildlife and plants. It's not an all out engorge fest of gluttony that a factory farm is, but regulated and strict limits as to how many animals can be harvested.

You think I haven't? However, we are not the only sentient animals on this planet, and most certainly we would object if another species were to farm and hunt us for food, so it stands that we must consider the fact our consumption of meat does kill a living and sentient being.

Actually, the Lion King was very about the "circle of life" were the top dogs on the food chain get to eat those below them.

Yup. And most of us really don't need to, and especially in the West most eat an unhealthy amount. We evolved to eat mostly fruits and vegetables, and to eat meat sparingly, which is most certainly not with every meal or even daily. And there is evidence that does suggest eating small amounts of meat (along with many other factors outside of diet) does lead to a longer life. But what the average American thinks of as a small amount would still be more than what the longest-lived populations of humans eat.

Yes, but so many of us don't require it. So much of the world could give up meat today and we'd be just fine.

Oh, so now you don't care about taking the life of a sentient being? There goes your argument for banning religious animal sacrifice down the drain.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh, so now you don't care about taking the life of a sentient being? There goes your argument for banning religious animal sacrifice down the drain.

You really do stretch things.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yup. It goes hand-in-hand with the thread asking if religious fundamentalism is a mental illness.

There's no link here. My parents were extremely religious. Yet as I said, they weren't psychotic like the guy in the story.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There's no link here.

It hasn't been active in awhile, but it's basically the same idea as what is here:
Is Fundamentalism a Religious Movement or a Psychological Disorder?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It hasn't been active in awhile, but it's basically the same idea as what is here:
Is Fundamentalism a Religious Movement or a Psychological Disorder?

I read the original thread. I believe I replied. But just to let you know... Some fundies are legitimately disturbed people. I think I read a science article where a disorder of the brain caused a kind of fundamentalism. However, that doesn't mean ALL fundamentalism is caused by a brain disorder. My parents were good, loving, kind, structured, consistant parents. Sure, they had "too many rules" for my liking. But compared to families that are dysfunctional? Boy did I ever have it good!!!! Baruch HaShem!!!

 

[night912]

You really do stretch things.

So no answer to my point?