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Featured What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by PopeADope, Apr 6, 2017.

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  1. I love the Church

    5 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. I like the Church

    9 vote(s)
    15.0%
  3. The Church isn't too bad

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  4. I dislike the Church

    27 vote(s)
    45.0%
  5. I hate the Church

    11 vote(s)
    18.3%
  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Presenting alternate views on the nature of the Roman Church is not disrespectful. Positive in their Aura?!?!? Do you some how expect everyone to present milk toast neutral responses when they do not agree.

    Anecdotal claims of one Baha'i is not useful here. Open debates of alternate positions as to the beliefs of one church religion or belief system is not remotely insulting nor in opposition to the teachings of the Baha'i Faith.

    The Baha'i principle the 'independent investigation of truth' holds sway here and not the opinion of one Bah'i or another.

    I have not done this!

    I have presented controversial different views in the Roman Church in honest sincere debate. Take a look at the first posts you posted in response. They were aggressive insulting and reflect that you take these differences personally, which like some others.

    The Baha'i principle of the 'independent investigation of truth' holds sway here and not the opinion of one Baha'i or the other.

    Please cite me properly, and go back and take close look at those posters and yourself that take my perspective on the Roman Church personal, and respond abusively and aggressively.

    The following views are not insulting nor abusive. The were simply different views of the church.

    (1) I consider the church the Roman Church headed by the Bishop of Rome, one of many churchesand not the Roman Catholic Church. If I was a believer I would consider the church 'universal' and yes the church and the body of Christ would be one and the same. From the outside, as I already stated, I consider all churches of Christianity to be the body of Christ. From the Methodist perspective that would be all the churches that believe in the Trinity, Apostolic Creed, and the sacrament of Baptism.

    (2) I consider the beliefs of the Roman Church and all traditional churches that believe in the Trinity a form of Tritheism, and not strict Monotheism as Jews, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith. I also consider Mary in the view of the Roman Church as a lesser goddess with a reference. This may be a controversial belief, and as referenced I am not alone in this belief, and it is not an insult to the Roman Church to believe differently.

    (3) I consider the belief of the Roman Church concerning 'Salvation only within the church the body of Christ to be true with the exceptions as referenced. Jews do get a special dispensation, as well as those with no knowledge of the church, and those under the age of consent, but beyond that there are no exceptions for those outside the church who have knowledge of the church and do not become a part of the body of Christ of their own free will. I do object to citing a news release with a biased, selective citation of Pope Francis without considering the whole homely and true view of Pope Francis. I corrected this without a rebuttal.
     
    #261 shunyadragon, Apr 12, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And vice-versa, I would suggest.

    Much like all institutions, the RCC has it's teachings, so we shouldn't expect them to conform to what you or I may personally like. As I mentioned to someone previously, there's really nothing theologically that I agree with the RCC on [see my signature statement at the bottom of my posts for clarification]..

    As is your right obviously, though my wife and I have not taken that action as we see a lot of good being done, and not just with us. For example, the amount of charity work the RCC does is immense, and we've seen this for ourselves as we've been active in it. I could tell you one story after another after another... and that's just what we've seen ourselves.
     
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  3. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    One of the things influential in pressuring the Church into finally admitting and acting during the scandal, in the Boston area were it broke, was parishioners withholding their weekly tithes from their parish and giving to charity instead. We kept attending because of something greater than the hierarchy, the Church made up of the 'People of God'.
     
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  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Regardless if you've been a catholic. If someone is very passionate about the Church (as people are with their ex), they may disagree with it's teachings and such but they won't discredit it because they'd understand the difference between an organization and a religion.

    If you only understand the Church as an organization, how did you define the Church when you were Catholic?

    That would assume you'd know my experiences and how I see other people in relation to how I grown up, my morals, and my beliefs.

    When you were tithing, who did you think you were giving the money too? Christ? I never tithed because I never agreed to it. Do I think it's a church issue, no. Most my family are Southern Baptist and non denomination. The former believes heavily in tithing but where they put the money, only rumors can tell.

    But no. Individual devotion has nothing to with money. One priest told me "how do you think we pay for the bread and wine" and so forth. You do need money. However, Catholics giving money as they feel the bible tells to do

    supersides how the money is used.

    That's like not giving money to a homeless person because you assume he'd use it for drugs.

    Charity has no reservations. Either you give tithing because christ told you to or withhold it. Has nothing to with supporting scandals. Half Catholics probably don't know how the money between each individual parish is handle anyway. Even the pasishes don't agree with each other. Like we are "All Saints" Catholic Church. While you have Saint Mary Catholic Church. Saint Dominic. Saint...

    Some parishes focus on devotion to Mary others do not. Some are very strict in how one confesses others are not.

    I was reading about the molestations and it started as an isolated incident in a hand full of parishes. People, do the silliest things but they do not define one's relationship with Christ.

    This all wraps around the Church being a religion and people having an intimate relationship with christ. However you see it "contributing to a scandal" is your call. But if you were Catholic, I'd think you'd understand it regardless if you disagree.

    I disagree with a lot of things but that doesn't mean I belittle the body because of it. That's silly.
     
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  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Disagreeing and insulting are two different things. Your OP compared Catholicism with paganism. I made my comment. Pigin commented on politic things. I replied to him. Whatever your disagreements is about the Catholic Church is on you. I have disagreements as well...

    But I don't insult people when I disagree with them. Disagreeing with someone doesn't give me an excuse to insult or belittle someone else's religion. I can say a lot about Eclectic Paganism, new age beliefs, Catholicism as a whole, and SGI Buddhism but I withhold my insults because they are peoples belief their devotion.

    I can disagree I just feel you are insulting people, alling people naive, and all of that when a simple conversation of disagreements will do.

    I mean, I have conversations with JW a lot and they hate the Catholic Church but I am lucky that no JW I have met in person has belittled the Church. Online, I only met one person who actually took a minute to understand my views and I his.

    That can only happen with patience and interest to understanding each other's views. Without that, your disagreements will be insults when directed with a "you" to people you don't even know.
     
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  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Have to separate your quotes if you still have the edit option available.
     
  7. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    FWIW, my opinion also may be shaped by the fact that American-style Evangelism is much less common in Canada. The Catholic Church tends to be the most "fanatical" mainstream denomination here.

    We do have more extreme denominations or individual independent churches, but they're decidedly on the fringe. The Catholics tend to be the extreme limit of our mainstream. I have a feeling that the "average Protestant" you encounter is probably pretty rare in Canada.
     
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  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Comparing the beliefs of the Roman Church with paganism may be controversial, but nothing new and not insulting, because I do so with references. Yes I consider many of the beliefs of the Roman Church originating from a meld of Roman/Greek paganism. These beliefs adapted by the Roman Church were in one form or another beliefs and parallels of Paganism.

    Neither do I and you have failed to document this, which in and of itself is insulting.

    So can I and what I have presented are disagreements, and you have failed to document this, which in and of itself is insulting.

    Please cite me properly, which you have failed to do.

    This limited contact you had JW does not reflect the reality that JW considers the Roman Church truely evil and prohibits any JW believer from even entering a Roman Church.

    Not documented with references, disagreements are not insults, but to take disagreements personally as you have is aggressive insulting behavior.
     
  9. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Close to my own thoughts; at the root of all that exists is an incomprehensible mystery we call God.
     
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  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    That's fine, but what ever you do, do not use my copyrighted "I don't know" responses or I'll sue you to the max! :mad:
     
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  11. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Seeing anybodys sig line is more trouble than it's worth on my mobile. What is yours?
    Tom
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.'
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You are completely missing the intent.
    Yes they do and they (since I live, work with, around, and breathe Christianity of all denominations in the place and environment I work. Can't get around it) have not treated me in a rude way to where I have sour views over the people themselves because they hate the religion that helped me tremendously inwardly and outwardly.

    I have. You just don't want to take the Catholic documents I gave you into consideration just interpret it from your own view. That's your right to disagree with Catholicism just don't put people down in the process.

    Catholicism has paganism in it. Catholics will not call it paganism and they know it is there - hence the Roman in their name. Maybe ya'll got a different definition of pagan, I don't know. Since you're not Christian, I can't get an authoritative answer from you. Resources don't count. If you were Christian, maybe speak from your own experiences. You'd know more about them then I would get from you as a Bahai quoting christian doctrine you disagree with with a passion.

    You're tone and calling people names is the problem not hte documents. Of course half of us agree with you hence why a lot of us are not Catholics. However, only a handful of people on RF actually respect the Church. I mean, I put "I like the Catholic Church." I don't love it, but I wouldn't put it down because that is putting down the people.

    Personally I am not that cold. (Don't read more into it than what I typed. I am not that cold).
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Will respond after giving it some thought.



    I have. You just don't want to take the Catholic documents I gave you into consideration just interpret it from your own view. That's your right to disagree with Catholicism just don't put people down in the process. [/quote]

    Not documented that I put down people in the process. Read your initial responses and than document your false accusations.


    I DID NOT CALL THE ROMAN CHURCH Pagnaism.

    Resources and references do count, and avoiding them with personal views is frustrating fallacious way of discussing topics. My references are as authoritative as possible.

    Careful using the word 'passion' here Citing Christian doctrine, not my own personal anecdotal views is the best I can do. When you and columbus ignore them with emotional responses of personal opinion is a problem.

    I was raised in the Roman Church and studied to be in the Saint Franciscan Order. I am not presently a Christian for the reasons I cited.

    False need citations. Columbus did anger me with aggressive negative sarcastic accusations without responding objectively concerning my documented sources.

    What you put down from the limited loaded choices is your problem

    I do not read anything more into you responses as they were obviously aggressive and insulting right from the beginning of my expressing my views. I will post your initial aggressive response next with by the way name calling.
     
  15. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Roman refers to the Roman-rite or the Roman particular church of the Catholic Church. There's also the Eastern-rite. The liturgy, theology and traditions are different between the rites but both are in communion with the Pope.
    Roman Rite - Wikipedia
     
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  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I'm studying for finals so I won't have time to bicker back and forth over this.
    The tone of your replies and your posts directly talking against the Church (not from a documental point of view but highly opinionated) insults the people of the Church. We are saying you insulted us. You can say no, but you're not the victim here. Either address nicely it or let it be.

    I didn't say you did. I said you compared Catholicism to paganism. Catholics don't disagree that there is not paganism in their church (they know they don't need documentations). Paganism are traditions and beliefs that are pre christian/jewish/muslim in origin nothing more. Roman Paganism is mixed with Jewish teachings of Christ via the influence of the apostles who were not all Jewish and later popes who were not Jewish whatsoever.

    We know it's called the Roman Catholic Church.

    Let me take that back, Frank made this OP. I can't remember when you came in but it was just asking how people felt about the Catholic Church.​


    I was going back since I can't remember having a real conversation with you before.

    I definitely do not consider myself 'legalistic' as far as the Roman Church is concerned. I describe the reality of Roman Church as it is taught in the Catechism without the rose colored glasses that some want naively feel comfortable with the church in a naive way. Actually, every Pope in recent history presents the same doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Church, which in turn upset and disappoint the more liberal naive believers, which simply present the facts of the beliefs that will not change. Pope Francis more subtly worded his homelies, but nothing changes, and the vain hopes of many for change and reform are disappointed, because it is very very unlikely that the beliefs of the Roman Church change over time.​

    You are not Catholic nor a practicing one. How can you say someone has "rose colored glasses" when their relatioship with Christ is between them and Christ?

    How can you judge someone for how they view christ and the church? What would make you make such a judgement regardless of the reources you give?

    Religion is personal. We're not talking about organizations and how much we are putting up stocks in the Church. I mean, when I learned about the Catholic Church as a Catholic told my friend about both sides, she literally told me not to tell her because it will make her doubt her faith.

    Religion is personal and I wish more people understood that and choose their words according to the conversation not an objective to win. (Don't read into it. Don't gloss over. Just understand)

    @columbus, @metis and myself (and others I'm forgetting, sorry) do have in one way or another personal views of the Church both good and bad. I just hope your experiences don't give you rose colored glasses of the positive sides of the Church.

    Many people leave for different reasons. If I left (talking about me) for documentation reasons, I'd never be religious. So many people have so much ick in their views that it's impossible to find a perfect solace and communion. But I left because I don't agree with Christianity itself. If I wanted to practice Christianity, it will always be Catholic.

    Not everyone shares your views about documentations when relating it to their relationship with the Church. Sounds like something personal attributed to other people not your personal opinion and experience.

    I can't speak for others. I cited from scripture, the CCC, and the Bishop site express my point. But Pigin jumped in and threw me off with politics and you mistakenly thought I was talking about you when I referred to people talking about the Church as a political thing. Whether you said that or not, I don't know. But you acted as if I said something I didn't. Happens all the time on RF.

    Huh? and "your problem" isn't a right way to express things if you say you didn't insult. Maybe say "we have different opinions" or let it be. Using "you and yours" cause people to be defensive. Online doesn't help. So, I'd change your tone.

    You'd have to cite my "aggressive and insulting" responses. I just disagreed with you and told you why I disagreed. I never said you did or said anything.

    I don't use indirect language to talk about people. It bothers the, um, mess out of me. I'd hope anyone else not just you would feel the same. It is not always the case in general. Not assuming you.
     
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  17. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I've found the Catholic church to be helpful, structured, compassionate. This of course is my experience with various Deacons and folks within the Church. I have heard of other people having horrible experiences, I'm not discounting those, but that's not my experience.

    I don't give any credibility to their beliefs, but I'm judging the folks I've dealt with, not their beliefs.
     
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  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?

    Jesus and mary did not belong to Catholic Church. Did they? Please
    Regards
     
  19. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Nor were they Communists, Muslims, French, or engineers.
    Were they?

    Please.
    regards.
    Tom
     
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  20. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Jesus and Mary never did any of the things done in the Catholic church. They never celebrated Christmas or Easter. They never used rosary beads. They never prayed to statues. And that is only a few.
     
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