What are the values of moderate Muslims?

[Assad91]

Icehorse, you do know the Quran was revealed over a time period which involved times of peace and times of war. Some verses are heavily related to the specific time. There were conflicts hence you see a caution being directed towards non believers.

Still, you don't find verses which direct the muslims, even in the specific time, to kill all the males and save only the virgin women.

 

[TashaN]

cocolia42 -

The 97% came from the second link I gave.

As far as the values you list, I appreciate the time you took to assemble that list, but how did you arrive at it? It strikes that your list (which is very nice by-the-way), came more from you, than it did your scripture.

I ask, because I could use many, many verses from the Quran to put forth values opposite to many that you list.

Go a head please. We need to see and examine these verses openly. We have got nothing to hide. It seems we can't go forward without doing so. So far your main argument is based on the Pew research and your perception of what the scriptures says. I already voiced my reservation of the research provided by Pew. Let's go for the scriptures now.

TashaN -

Good question, I'm not sure that I ever claimed that there were a set of 21st century values, but perhaps there are themes such as:

- human rights (equality for women, gays, Jews and so on)
- secularism (the separation of church and state)
- freedom of religion and freedom from religion (e.g. no penalty or threat for apostates)
- free speech, especially when it's controversial

You see, you still treating Muslims as if they were Christians. You can't compare us to Christians. Christians killed and tortured both us AND Jews. We never had an issue with Jews till recently when we had an issue with Zionist Jews who are occupying Palestine. Please read history, that's all what i'm asking you. Sorry but I really doubt you put as much research into this as you claim. Islam value human rights, freedom of religion, free speech, and again, we never had church "mosque" control over government as the West had.

The West had so many issues that we never had, and i think you should study Muslims from a new perspective. Take off christianity's glasses and use a neutral one.

Assad91 -

As Luis mentioned, it's hard to arrive at a definition of Sharia. But there are some aspects of it that seem do undo a lot of progress that humanity has made. First off, Sharia tends towards absolute power and totalitarianism.

Which Muslims greatly despise and abhor? I don't know where did you get this idea from.

History shows us that these types of systems move quickly towards corruption and massive abuse of human rights. People must be free to speak their minds, disagree with their leaders, leave their religion, and peacefully replace leaders who don't serve the people. Sharia stands in opposition to these ideas, instead claiming to be perfect and demonstrating no tolerance for criticism.

Of course I agree that Luis brings up two good examples when he mentions slavery and apartheid.

Sorry, you got it all wrong this time. I think you need to start from scratch.

 

[TashaN]

Hi cocolia42, When I read the Quran, I took many notes. (I wish I'd taken more.) I did not verify every entry on the list of 500. On the other hand many of those quotes seemed familiar to me, and certainly - having read the Quran - the number 500 seems about right. I did however "spot check" the list, and my spot checking verified that the list seems accurate. Of course they are also summarizing verses into a few words. I did the same in my notes, and I'm sure if you've ever taken extensive notes on a large book, you've made summaries yourself.

I think you are finding small details to disagree with, but missing the main point. The Quran "tolerates" other religions once for every 50 times (to be really conservative), it attempts to humiliates nonbelievers.

I also find your word "tolerates" to be interesting in this discussion. To me it implies that Muslims do NOT think of non-Muslims as equals, but instead as lesser people to be "tolerated".

I strongly believe you are underestimating Islam and the complexity of it's unique scriptures. I noticed you are looking for easy answers to draw your conclusions quickly. if you want that we can answer you in few words then you are free to reach to your own conclusions, but if you want to go deep into Islam and truly studying it, you need to have more stamina and refrain from making such hasty and immature conclusions.

 

[icehorse]

Icehorse, you do know the Quran was revealed over a time period which involved times of peace and times of war. Some verses are heavily related to the specific time. There were conflicts hence you see a caution being directed towards non believers.

Still, you don't find verses which direct the muslims, even in the specific time, to kill all the males and save only the virgin women.

Hi Assad91,

Yes, I understand that the Quran was revealed over many years. Again, I will say up front that I'm simplifying things, but isn't it largely the case that when Muhammad was in Mecca things were more peaceful, and when he went to Medina there was more war? Are you saying that all 500 verses on the list were revealed in Medina? I don't think that that's the case?

Also, I want you to notice that I'm really pulling my punches here in order to actually discuss these ideas.

 

[icehorse]

Go a head please. We need to see and examine these verses openly. We have got nothing to hide. It seems we can't go forward without doing so. So far your main argument is based on the Pew research and your perception of what the scriptures says. I already voiced my reservation of the research provided by Pew. Let's go for the scriptures now.

I just gave a link to a list of 500 verses (summarized of course). Are you telling me that all 500 of these verses are only understandable by Islamic scholars?

TashaN, The world has experienced a huge problem in the last 13 years. In this time there have been over 22,000 terrorist attacks (mostly Muslims attacking other Muslims). When the Danish cartoons of Muhammad were publicized throughout the world BY MUSLIMS, Muslims rioted in the streets around the world. Embassies around the world were destroyed and people were killed. I could go on and on with examples like this.

But the point is that in all of those examples, the Muslims involved quoted the very same Quran that you are claiming has a peaceful intention. It's really a weak argument to imply that somehow "icehorse has it wrong". If I have it wrong, so do millions of other people. So if millions of people are misunderstanding a book, is that the fault of the people or the book?

Let me give you one common situation (again, I'm summarizing and simplifying):
Isn't it the case that of the 22,000 recent attacks, most of them have been for sectarian reasons? Isn't it also the fact that Muslims of different sects often view each other as apostates? And isn't it often the case that many Muslims believe AND ACT on the belief that the punishment for apostasy is death?

TashaN, I believe that with enough effort and study, you can construct an elaborate explanation of the Quran that could give it a peaceful intention. (I wouldn't agree with the conclusion, but I can agree that such study could happen.) But in this world of billions of people it's not realistic to think that you'll get everyone to agree with your elaborate explanation. The book says what it says. You're stuck with that.

Again, there is a LOT of evidence in the modern world. (There's a lot of historical evidence as well, but that might be for a separate thread.)

I'm not bringing any of this up to debate. I think that if we want a peaceful world, we need to understand each other better. That is - once again - why I'm talking about core values. I liked cocolia42's list.

It seems silly to deny that cocolia42's list is in sharp contrast to the main messages of the scripture. And thank goodness it is. If you want the world to understand that Islam and Muslims are peaceful, don't tell the world to read the Quran. If you ask 100 people who know nothing of Islam to read the Quran, 99 of them will tell you that Islam is a very violent and intolerant ideology. That's simply what the words in the book say. That's NOT to say that most Muslims are violent and intolerant.

So that gets us back to the main question again. The world wants peace. Words like "Islamophobia" exist because Muslims are misunderstood. You can quote scripture until you're blue in the face. you're not going to get the world to devote their lives to trying to extract a peaceful message from the Quran.

If you say "I'm peaceful and it's because I follow the Quran", very few non-Muslims will believe you. That sentence doesn't make any sense.

The evidence in the world is that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. But there is also a TON of evidence that the scripture - in the 21st century - is used to support aggression, violence, misogyny, anti-semitism, homophobia and general intolerance by many people all over the world. To deny that is to be in denial of the world.

I would hazard a guess that any non-Muslim reading this thread would conclude that the Muslims participating in this thread are peaceful, but that this orientation didn't come from the scripture, and that defense of the scripture causes a lot of grief.

So back to core values. The world wants peace. Peace comes through understanding. Islamic scripture does not further understanding. It causes confusion in the world.

You see, you still treating Muslims as if they were Christians. You can't compare us to Christians. Christians killed and tortured both us AND Jews. We never had an issue with Jews till recently when we had an issue with Zionist Jews who are occupying Palestine. Please read history, that's all what i'm asking you. Sorry but I really doubt you put as much research into this as you claim. Islam value human rights, freedom of religion, free speech, and again, we never had church "mosque" control over government as the West had.

The West had so many issues that we never had, and i think you should study Muslims from a new perspective. Take off christianity's glasses and use a neutral one.

Which Muslims greatly despise and abhor? I don't know where did you get this idea from.

We've been over this before. Over the last 1400 years Christianity and Islam both have a lot of blood on their hands. I'm looking at this situation from a secular perspective, not a Christian one. You will not find me defending Christianity once.

 

[cocolia42]

Hi cocolia42, When I read the Quran, I took many notes. (I wish I'd taken more.) I did not verify every entry on the list of 500. On the other hand many of those quotes seemed familiar to me, and certainly - having read the Quran - the number 500 seems about right. I did however "spot check" the list, and my spot checking verified that the list seems accurate. Of course they are also summarizing verses into a few words. I did the same in my notes, and I'm sure if you've ever taken extensive notes on a large book, you've made summaries yourself.

The main problem with this list is that it takes parts of verses completely out of context.

I think you are finding small details to disagree with, but missing the main point. The Quran "tolerates" other religions once for every 50 times (to be really conservative), it attempts to humiliates nonbelievers.

Why should it not humiliate nonbelievers? It is a religion that states you must believe in the One True God to attain salvation.
Let me ask you this...
Why do you think Christians can handle equality and tolerance but Muslims can't?
The Bible says:

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. (2 John 1:9-11)

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14)

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)


You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. (Deuteronomy 7:3-4)


But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)


This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10)

​

...these are just a few

I also find your word "tolerates" to be interesting in this discussion. To me it implies that Muslims do NOT think of non-Muslims as equals, but instead as lesser people to be "tolerated".

What I said was "tolerate other religions". People are equal. Their actions are not.

 

[cocolia42]

For that reason, disagreements with taught doctrine is not only acceptable; it is in fact badly needed, so that the doctrine can be evaluated and improved.

No religion is above that basic reality, IMO.

I have no problem whatsoever in accepting that both one's conception of truth and any religious doctrine must both be checked for their degree of truth. Which, in fact, can only change according to time and culture.

So I am afraid that I can't agree with you here.

And this is what makes Muslims stand out. We believe God's commands don't change until He Himself changes them. He told us how to serve Him and we have no right to change that to suit out own desires.

 

[LuisDantas]

And this is what makes Muslims stand out.

Indeed.

We believe God's commands don't change until He Himself changes them. He told us how to serve Him and we have no right to change that to suit out own desires.

Desires? More like duties, far as I can tell.

For all I know, Abraham's God does in fact exist. But if he does, I simply can't bring myself to even imagine that he wants people to be that uncritical of any religious teaching. He would realize the consequences and he would care for them.

 

[icehorse]

Hi cocolia42,

Well my general observation about Abrahamic scripture is that it has always ended up causing a confusion and misunderstanding in the world. By no means am I limiting this opinion to the Quran.

As I said earlier, IMHO, if a non-Muslim wants to understand peaceful, modern Muslims, I'd say that just about the worst place to start would be the Quran. As you and TashaN (and many others), have said over and over again: "icehorse, you're not seeing the context, and the historical perspective, and Mecca and Medina and on and on...".

What's important to realize is that 99.99% of non-Muslims are NOT going to embark on a 1000 hour journey of ancient Islamic scholarship. It just isn't going to happen.

I'll also repeat that the goal of having non-Muslims understand Muslims better certainly is NOT going to solve all the world's problems. And I'll also repeat the the West has a lot of serious problems as well.

But the fact is, that in the West, Islam and Muslims are typically NOT well understood. So this thread is just about chipping away at this one problem.

As I said earlier cocolia42, I like the list of values that you offered - hooray! But again, if you were to ask 1000 non-Muslims to read the Quran and summarize it's main messages, none of those people would come up with a list anything at all like your list. Not even close.

So, if you're interested in helping the people of the world understand each other better, pointing to scripture, any Abrahamic scripture, is a bad idea. And the problem is, lots of Muslims DO point at their scripture, and this causes confusion, not understanding.

==

cocolia42 - And this is what makes Muslims stand out. We believe God's commands don't change until He Himself changes them. He told us how to serve Him and we have no right to change that to suit out own desires.

But, as you and TashaN have said over and over again, you folks can "interpret" God's commands all day long. Another way of saying this is that you don't think God did a very good job with his book. Because you're saying that someone like me can't just read the words. You're saying that God can't speak for himself - but that he needs Islamic scholars to help him be clear. Now, I don't really care, but if I did, I *could* take great offense at this. If I cared, I *could* say to you and TashaN "How dare you interpret God's words for me!" "Who put you in charge?" "Who says you know anything more about the Quran than I do?"

Remember, I'm not really saying those things, but hypothetically, I think you'd be hard pressed to have good answers, without conflicting with what the Quran says about itself. Remember the Quran declares itself to be "clear and easily understood".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Remember, I'm not really saying those things, but hypothetically, ...

How childish … :roll eyes:

I am, however curious about why you didn't post your question in the Islam DIR.

 

[icehorse]

How childish … :roll eyes:

I am, however curious about why you didn't post your question in the Islam DIR.

I started it there, and was asked to move it here.

As far as childish goes... It strikes me as odd that so many folks from Abrahamic religions claim that their God's words need clerical middlemen or scholars to be correctly interpreted.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I wonder why.

 

[Assad91]

I started it there, and was asked to move it here.

As far as childish goes... It strikes me as odd that so many folks from Abrahamic religions claim that their God's words need clerical middlemen or scholars to be correctly interpreted.

Because laymen come up short compared to elders who have studied all their lives. Studied and mastered Quran, hadith and all the related sciences to fiqh .

There are people who don't use scholars. Muslim and non do it. That's why you find such misconceptions, like the ones you come up with.

You miss my point in your last reply. This reply is towards your last reply to me as well as what's quoted.

 

[Assad91]

I wonder why.

I'm sure it's similar to Jews as well, right?

Not every laymen has time to master Hebrew, talmud and tanakh, correct?

 

[icehorse]

Icehorse, you do know the Quran was revealed over a time period which involved times of peace and times of war. Some verses are heavily related to the specific time. There were conflicts hence you see a caution being directed towards non believers.

Still, you don't find verses which direct the muslims, even in the specific time, to kill all the males and save only the virgin women.

Assad91 - Is this the post you want me to answer?

 

[cocolia42]

What's important to realize is that 99.99% of non-Muslims are NOT going to embark on a 1000 hour journey of ancient Islamic scholarship. It just isn't going to happen.

Well that's not our problem, is it? If you want to know the truth about anything, you have to go to the source. If someone is not willing to go to the source, that's their loss.

As I said earlier cocolia42, I like the list of values that you offered - hooray! But again, if you were to ask 1000 non-Muslims to read the Quran and summarize it's main messages, none of those people would come up with a list anything at all like your list. Not even close.

I'll have to disagree. Especially since I took the list DIRECTLY from the Qur'an. If what you say were true, Islam would not see the number of reverts it does. Some people are capable of being open-minded. Some people can read the Qur'an to find out what it says instead of trying to use it to prove their misconceptions.

So, if you're interested in helping the people of the world understand each other better, pointing to scripture, any Abrahamic scripture, is a bad idea. And the problem is, lots of Muslims DO point at their scripture, and this causes confusion, not understanding.

And again, that's not our problem. That falls on the person who cannot open their mind.

But, as you and TashaN have said over and over again, you folks can "interpret" God's commands all day long. Another way of saying this is that you don't think God did a very good job with his book. Because you're saying that someone like me can't just read the words. You're saying that God can't speak for himself - but that he needs Islamic scholars to help him be clear. Now, I don't really care, but if I did, I *could* take great offense at this. If I cared, I *could* say to you and TashaN "How dare you interpret God's words for me!" "Who put you in charge?" "Who says you know anything more about the Quran than I do?"

Remember, I'm not really saying those things, but hypothetically, I think you'd be hard pressed to have good answers, without conflicting with what the Quran says about itself. Remember the Quran declares itself to be "clear and easily understood".

The Qur'an is clear and easily understood...if you know classical Arabic. Do you? If not, then you need someone to interpret it for you or you need to learn the language.
But since you can't even dedicate enough time to really read the book in your own language, you certainly won't take the time to learn the language.
The Qur'an is also everlasting. It's message was as clear 1400 years ago as it is today. But you have to also know the sunnah to be able to apply it today. More time.

So, the EASIEST way for non-Muslims to understand Islam is to ask practicing Muslims. But instead, many of them go to ridiculous websites filled with hate and lies, form a biased opinion, open the Qur'an and cherry-pick verses that they think prove them right.
Then, when a Muslim tells them the truth, they call the Muslim a liar or say that he doesn't know his own religion

 

[newgodthinker]

God has numerous manifestations.

 

[icehorse]

Hi cocolia42,

The thing is that millions of Muslims around the world have the same interpretation of the Quran as what I've stated in this thread. How do you know that your interpretation is the correct one and that those millions of Muslims are wrong?

Yes, I know that you took your list from the Quran. But millions of Muslims read the Quran and they create very different lists than yours, correct?

You talk about coming with an open mind... I had no idea what I would discover when I read the Quran. I had heard only a few verses quoted here and there. I just read the words in front of my eyes. Nothing mysterious, no agenda, just read the words.

cocolia42, is it fair for me to ask you if you were born into a Muslim family? Were the Quran and the sunnah always a part of your life?

 

[TashaN]

Oh no. That is why I chose them to illustrate my point. They are clear examples of once-accepted practices that had to be challenged, including by "foreigners".

Well, i think we need to be clear about something here. The Quran is the guideline which we supposed to follow and at the same time we are not as rigid as we appear to be. While we always say that the Quran is the unchangeable and eternal truth, but you should also know that it was meant for the Quran also to fit anywhere and anytime. As long as our interpretations doesn't contradict with the basics, we don't have an issue with change and re-analyzing the text.

 

[TashaN]

I just gave a link to a list of 500 verses (summarized of course). Are you telling me that all 500 of these verses are only understandable by Islamic scholars?

Hmmm, what do you think of anti-American websites? Americans would say they are lovely sites and all true?

Anyone can put garbage on the internet and just for simply doing so that doesn't mean all what they say is true. If your research was based on anti-Islam sites then i feel really sorry that all your effort went in vain. once you have a decent source to share i'll be more than willing to discuss it with you because i don't have time to respond to the huge amount of misinformation in that site.

TashaN, The world has experienced a huge problem in the last 13 years. In this time there have been over 22,000 terrorist attacks (mostly Muslims attacking other Muslims). When the Danish cartoons of Muhammad were publicized throughout the world BY MUSLIMS, Muslims rioted in the streets around the world. Embassies around the world were destroyed and people were killed. I could go on and on with examples like this.

If in the last 13 year we had issues with terrorism then Islam must be evil.

But if America was run by someone like Bush so it's fine because it's not America's nor Americans' fault. Is that right?

But the point is that in all of those examples, the Muslims involved quoted the very same Quran that you are claiming has a peaceful intention. It's really a weak argument to imply that somehow "icehorse has it wrong". If I have it wrong, so do millions of other people. So if millions of people are misunderstanding a book, is that the fault of the people or the book?

Let me give you one common situation (again, I'm summarizing and simplifying):
Isn't it the case that of the 22,000 recent attacks, most of them have been for sectarian reasons? Isn't it also the fact that Muslims of different sects often view each other as apostates? And isn't it often the case that many Muslims believe AND ACT on the belief that the punishment for apostasy is death?

TashaN, I believe that with enough effort and study, you can construct an elaborate explanation of the Quran that could give it a peaceful intention. (I wouldn't agree with the conclusion, but I can agree that such study could happen.) But in this world of billions of people it's not realistic to think that you'll get everyone to agree with your elaborate explanation. The book says what it says. You're stuck with that.

Again, there is a LOT of evidence in the modern world. (There's a lot of historical evidence as well, but that might be for a separate thread.)

I'm not bringing any of this up to debate. I think that if we want a peaceful world, we need to understand each other better. That is - once again - why I'm talking about core values. I liked cocolia42's list.

It seems silly to deny that cocolia42's list is in sharp contrast to the main messages of the scripture. And thank goodness it is. If you want the world to understand that Islam and Muslims are peaceful, don't tell the world to read the Quran. If you ask 100 people who know nothing of Islam to read the Quran, 99 of them will tell you that Islam is a very violent and intolerant ideology. That's simply what the words in the book say. That's NOT to say that most Muslims are violent and intolerant.

Please read:

1981 December 7: James W. von Brunn served 6 years in prison for attempting to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve at their headquarters in Washington, D.C. He testified his motive was to raise awareness of alleged "treacherous and unconstitutional" acts by the Federal Reserve.

1995 November 9: Oklahoma Constitutional Militia members arrested while in the planning stages for bombings of Southern Poverty Law Center, gay bars and abortion clinics

2011 October–November: Georgia terrorist plot Four elderly men from a Georgia militia arrested for plotting to buy ricin in preparation for an attack they claimed would "save the Constitution". They allegedly discussed blowing up IRS and ATF buildings, dispensing ricin from a plane over Atlanta and other cities, and assassinating "un American" politicians. Informant used to break up alleged plot.

2013 November 1 2013 Los Angeles International Airport shooting 23-year-old Paul Ciancia kills a Transportation Security Administration agent and wounds 7 others, 3 of them TSA agents. Ciancia was shot and taken into custody. A note found in Ciancia's pocket said he believed he was a patriot and wanted to kill "patriot" upset at former Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, and that he wanted to kill "TSA and pigs"

Terrorism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read also here:

List of United States presidential assassination attempts and plots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People kill for religion, politics, love, etc. Can you condemn love because someone is killing in the name of love? can you condemn the US constitution because people are killing in the name of *protecting* the constitution?

How many people disagree in the US about what the constitution say and do every single person in the US view the constitution in the same way?

You got my point?

So that gets us back to the main question again. The world wants peace. Words like "Islamophobia" exist because Muslims are misunderstood. You can quote scripture until you're blue in the face. you're not going to get the world to devote their lives to trying to extract a peaceful message from the Quran.

If you say "I'm peaceful and it's because I follow the Quran", very few non-Muslims will believe you. That sentence doesn't make any sense.

I agree, but that's because of the complex political environment and they are not judging Islam in it's normal circumstances. That's why we have to compare Islam today with its history which was bright, fruitful, and progressive.

The evidence in the world is that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. But there is also a TON of evidence that the scripture - in the 21st century - is used to support aggression, violence, misogyny, anti-semitism, homophobia and general intolerance by many people all over the world. To deny that is to be in denial of the world.

I would hazard a guess that any non-Muslim reading this thread would conclude that the Muslims participating in this thread are peaceful, but that this orientation didn't come from the scripture, and that defense of the scripture causes a lot of grief.

How do you know whether me being peaceful comes or doesn't come from the values of my religion? Is there a way to know that?

So back to core values. The world wants peace. Peace comes through understanding. Islamic scripture does not further understanding. It causes confusion in the world.

Only to those who are too lazy to study it themselves and read many decent unbiased books about it, but for those who simply want to use anti-islam websites, it's easy for them to condemn it and be confused.

We've been over this before. Over the last 1400 years Christianity and Islam both have a lot of blood on their hands. I'm looking at this situation from a secular perspective, not a Christian one. You will not find me defending Christianity once.

Please don't compare between Islam and Christianity in this way. Although it's tempting to do so because they were in a long clash in the past, but there is absolutely no way to compare the two in term of violence, and by doing so you are committing injustice. That's why i asked you numerous times in this thread to read history. if you really did, you wouldn't have said this.