What are the values of moderate Muslims?

[ranvirk]

Well, i think we need to be clear about something here. The Quran is the guideline which we supposed to follow and at the same time we are not as rigid as we appear to be. While we always say that the Quran is the unchangeable and eternal truth, but you should also know that it was meant for the Quran also to fit anywhere and anytime. As long as our interpretations doesn't contradict with the basics, we don't have an issue with change and re-analyzing the text.

So basics change with time as well, Quran was written by someone who had limited knowledge at that time in the way that all religious texts were written. Quran is not the word of god, let's be clear about this, people who was inspired by god or ahead of their times wrote it.

By denying evolution as far as I know, Quran deny my true identity and to have a book that deny true human identity is not a good source of guideline in life. It's a perfect example of gullibility as far as I am concerned. How can u follow a book that teaches hatred against homosexuals, Jews, etc,,,. Now u may turn around and say "no no this is wrong interpretation, but there are millions of ppl outside with different interpretation, who is correct?...

 

[ranvirk]

The Qur'an is clear and easily understood...if you know classical Arabic. Do you?

Are u really sure about this? If so then I am deeply concerned about this book..I assume most of Middle East understand Arabic and we all know what views they hold based on Quran, now I would not want people with same opinion near myself or my family coz they r ppl who r completely brainwashed by accepting it as word of god

The Qur'an is also everlasting. It's message was as clear 1400 years ago as it is today. But you have to also know the sunnah to be able to apply it today. More ::

Give me some examples on quranic teachings from book that makes me accept that it's a literal word of god..something that is unique and can only be know through miracles...but please keep in mind that it shud satisfy below criteria:

It was not known at the time of revelation in any different religion or society

It can only be known through revelation

The words and meaning of the texts should not change from the time it was written...

Let's discuss this more in detail...

 

[TashaN]

Hi cocolia42,

Well my general observation about Abrahamic scripture is that it has always ended up causing a confusion and misunderstanding in the world. By no means am I limiting this opinion to the Quran.

As I said earlier, IMHO, if a non-Muslim wants to understand peaceful, modern Muslims, I'd say that just about the worst place to start would be the Quran. As you and TashaN (and many others), have said over and over again: "icehorse, you're not seeing the context, and the historical perspective, and Mecca and Medina and on and on...".

What's important to realize is that 99.99% of non-Muslims are NOT going to embark on a 1000 hour journey of ancient Islamic scholarship. It just isn't going to happen.

I'll also repeat that the goal of having non-Muslims understand Muslims better certainly is NOT going to solve all the world's problems. And I'll also repeat the the West has a lot of serious problems as well.

But the fact is, that in the West, Islam and Muslims are typically NOT well understood. So this thread is just about chipping away at this one problem.

As I said earlier cocolia42, I like the list of values that you offered - hooray! But again, if you were to ask 1000 non-Muslims to read the Quran and summarize it's main messages, none of those people would come up with a list anything at all like your list. Not even close.

So, if you're interested in helping the people of the world understand each other better, pointing to scripture, any Abrahamic scripture, is a bad idea. And the problem is, lots of Muslims DO point at their scripture, and this causes confusion, not understanding.

==

But, as you and TashaN have said over and over again, you folks can "interpret" God's commands all day long. Another way of saying this is that you don't think God did a very good job with his book. Because you're saying that someone like me can't just read the words. You're saying that God can't speak for himself - but that he needs Islamic scholars to help him be clear. Now, I don't really care, but if I did, I *could* take great offense at this. If I cared, I *could* say to you and TashaN "How dare you interpret God's words for me!" "Who put you in charge?" "Who says you know anything more about the Quran than I do?"

Remember, I'm not really saying those things, but hypothetically, I think you'd be hard pressed to have good answers, without conflicting with what the Quran says about itself. Remember the Quran declares itself to be "clear and easily understood".

I'm not afraid that people will read the Quran. I really WISH they will do so. on the other hand, what i'm afraid of is that website like the one you have provided which claim to spare them effort to read it, will influence their decision, and you fell for it, then you came forward claiming you have read it all and all what you understood from it was just that Islam is evil and violent and the Muslims who are peaceful didn't get that from their religion but got it from somewhere else. This is the thing which you are pushing for now to validate your theory about islam.

I see we are not going anywhere as long as the only thing you have in mind is that the Quran is evil and bad and you will do everything you can to prove yourself right. Tell me please, are we wasting our time here?

 

[TashaN]

To all who want to know who to believe and why you should accept my interpretation for instance and not the interpretation of some violent groups.

It's quite simple. Believe the interpretation of 99.99% of Muslims who are not violent, not the 00.01% who misinterpret it to commit violence in the name of Islam. Fair enough?

 

[TashaN]

Please watch:

[youtube]YfhZR15QRKA[/youtube]

BBC Documentary - An Islamic History of Europe - YouTube


[youtube]J1btMSGeZfA[/youtube]

BBC What Islamic World Did For Us - Documentry over ancient Islamic inventions - YouTube

 

[icehorse]

TashaN,

I'm very happy that you and cocolia42 take peaceful messages from the Quran, but many people do not. The evidence of this (for example, sectarian violence), has been around for 1400 years.

When a peaceful Muslim says he gets his/her values from the Quran, most of the world will see that statement as illogical. That's why I started this thread. I sincerely want to understand the values most commonly held by Muslims, and the Quran does not provide that information.

TashaN, let me ask you this question. If went back through my own notes and found 20 or 50 or 200 violent verses in the Quran, and listed them here, would you explain them all to me?

I suppose that might be an interesting experiment. But more to the point of this thread, would you tell me some of your core values? I've shared mine, and I'd be happy to elaborate if you want me to...

 

[cocolia42]

TashaN, let me ask you this question. If went back through my own notes and found 20 or 50 or 200 violent verses in the Quran, and listed them here, would you explain them all to me?

Please, start a new thread and post these verses and let us explain them to you. I know I would be willing. I feel confident Tashan would be willing as well.

 

[icehorse]

hi cocolia42,

Ok thanks. What would be the correct forum for such a discussion?

 

[cocolia42]

Hi cocolia42,

The thing is that millions of Muslims around the world have the same interpretation of the Quran as what I've stated in this thread. How do you know that your interpretation is the correct one and that those millions of Muslims are wrong?

Yes, I know that you took your list from the Quran. But millions of Muslims read the Quran and they create very different lists than yours, correct?

How can you claim that millions of Muslims will come up with a different list? If you know that, why would you even ask us what our values are? I know LOTS of Muslims from all over the world. Admittedly I don't know millions of them, but I know a few hundred Muslims from every continent (except Antarctica). I can name three who do not hold the same values I do.

You talk about coming with an open mind... I had no idea what I would discover when I read the Quran. I had heard only a few verses quoted here and there. I just read the words in front of my eyes. Nothing mysterious, no agenda, just read the words.

Yes, you just read the words. And because you already had a preconceived notion of what you would find based on those few verses you heard here and there, you did not consider those words in context. When you have in your mind that someone claimed the Qur'an says to kill all the infidels, the second you come to the verse that says "And kill them wherever you overtake them", your mind decides 'there's the proof'. Instead, you should stop and say "hmmm....seems strange that God would just make a blanket statement like that. Maybe I should LOOK AT THE CONTEXT"

cocolia42, is it fair for me to ask you if you were born into a Muslim family? Were the Quran and the sunnah always a part of your life?

I was NOT born into a Muslim family. The Qur'an and sunnah were no part of my life until 2 years ago. Prior to that, I had never read the Qur'an. I read the Qur'an and had a basic understanding of it BEFORE deciding to convert to Islam. Before I became Muslim I had never met a Muslim.

 

[ranvirk]

Please, start a new thread and post these verses and let us explain them to you. I know I would be willing. I feel confident Tashan would be willing as well.

Again that's based on ur interpretation of islam. A lot of people have different interpretation , how do we know that urs is correct ?

 

[cocolia42]

hi cocolia42,

Ok thanks. What would be the correct forum for such a discussion?

I would think the Islam DIR so only Muslims answer. But I could be wrong. Wherever you decide to post it, please let us know.

 

[cocolia42]

Are u really sure about this? If so then I am deeply concerned about this book..I assume most of Middle East understand Arabic

No, actually, most of Middle East does not understand classical Arabic.

and we all know what views they hold based on Quran,

do you really?

now I would not want people with same opinion near myself or my family coz they r ppl who r completely brainwashed by accepting it as word of god

You sound very ignorant.

Give me some examples on quranic teachings from book that makes me accept that it's a literal word of god..something that is unique and can only be know through miracles...but please keep in mind that it shud satisfy below criteria:

It was not known at the time of revelation in any different religion or society

It can only be known through revelation

The words and meaning of the texts should not change from the time it was written...

Let's discuss this more in detail...

It wouldn't matter what I showed you from the Qur'an as you have already made up your mind that WE are the brainwashed ones.

 

[Pastek]

hi cocolia42,

Ok thanks. What would be the correct forum for such a discussion?

Maybe in Scriptural Debates.

 

[cocolia42]

Maybe in Scriptural Debates.

I think if you put it in any debate forum, we'll see the same thing we see here. The purpose is for icehorse to learn the correct meanings of the verses.

 

[TashaN]

Dear icehorse,

Yes sure, go a head and post all of them please. I'm more than willing to participate in explaining them to you. It depends whether it's going to be a discussion or a debate. If it's only a discussion then Islam DIR, but if it's going to be a debate then i prefer Quranic Debate Forum within the Scriptural Debate.

Regarding my values, well, no one asked me this question and i never thought to put it as a constructed answer before. Let me try but don't get upset if i borrowed from yours if some mirrored mine.

- The belief in Allah and everything he commands
- Honesty
- Kindness
- Integrity
- Knowledge
- Friendship
- Freedom
- Justice
- Charity
- Humility
- Honoring parents
- Community

I don't know, maybe more but this is what comes to my mind right now. Sometimes you just feel your core values and act based on them without giving them names, don't you agree with me?

 

[icehorse]

Alright, I'll put a post together. You guys tell me, by this site's standards, have we been discussing or debating?

Also, TashaN, thanks for your list. My guess is that for you, if there is a conflict between another value and belief in Allah, then Allah wins outs? Is that correct?

 

[cocolia42]

Alright, I'll put a post together. You guys tell me, by this site's standards, have we been discussing or debating?

discussing

 

[TashaN]

Alright, I'll put a post together. You guys tell me, by this site's standards, have we been discussing or debating?

Also, TashaN, thanks for your list. My guess is that for you, if there is a conflict between another value and belief in Allah, then Allah wins outs? Is that correct?

Allah has nothing to win nor lose. He doesn't need us. We need him.

I'm the one who decide either i win or lose in this life. When it comes to my belief in Allah, it's always superior to anything else in this life, there is no question about that.

So far i think we are discussing but in the midst of going into debating. if you asked in Islam DIR so you won't be able to challenge the answers, you can simply ask questions and get answers for them and this might restrict you somehow, so if you wished to challenge these answers and put forward counter argument then in this case better to go for the Quranic debating area i put at the link in my previous post.

 

[icehorse]

Hi TashaN, cocolia42, and others...

I started a new thread here: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...035-does-quran-promote-peaceful-values-i.html

Specifically to discuss (debate?) whether the Quran promotes peaceful values...

 

[icehorse]

Dear icehorse,

Yes sure, go a head and post all of them please. I'm more than willing to participate in explaining them to you. It depends whether it's going to be a discussion or a debate. If it's only a discussion then Islam DIR, but if it's going to be a debate then i prefer Quranic Debate Forum within the Scriptural Debate.

Regarding my values, well, no one asked me this question and i never thought to put it as a constructed answer before. Let me try but don't get upset if i borrowed from yours if some mirrored mine.

- The belief in Allah and everything he commands
- Honesty
- Kindness
- Integrity
- Knowledge
- Friendship
- Freedom
- Justice
- Charity
- Humility
- Honoring parents
- Community

I don't know, maybe more but this is what comes to my mind right now. Sometimes you just feel your core values and act based on them without giving them names, don't you agree with me?

Hi TashaN,

At the top level, this seems like a fine list! I wonder about some of these things if we drill down. For example, we all know that there is a lot of controversy concerning women's rights in Islam. So, for example, when you list "freedom" as a value, does that mean you support total equality for women, in all things?