What Are Mystical Experiences Like?

[roger1440]

Paradoxically the goal of the mystic is to cease to have a goal.

 

[Jumi]

Paradoxically the goal of the mystic is to cease to have a goal.

I don't know if that's a goal or something that just happens.

 

[roger1440]

I don't know if that's a goal or something that just happens.

It can only happen by letting go.

 

[YmirGF]

Paradoxically the goal of the mystic is to cease to have a goal.

What goal? Then again, to be fair, I was never much into sports.

 

[crossfire]

I hear the differences you are speaking to but I think it needs to be understood a little differently. First let's call to goal of mystical states "Unitive Consciousness". That is what actually motivates the mystics, to Unite with the Divine, to be One with the world, with All that is, to return to Source, to rest in Emptiness, to be complete, and so forth. The mystical experience is not a cognitive exercise, seeking commonalities through beliefs, cultural connections, or understanding systems theory. The mystical experience is a state of consciousness, and in that Unitive Consciousness it sees past and beyond the surface structures of others to Spirit itself. It goes beyond finding commonalities.

This is one of the reasons that Interfaith dialogue do not truly bring people together, as the mind is still looking at what divides in seeking what unites. What would truly bring people together would be a shared practice where each speaks out in their own uniqueness from that place of Silence. Words spoken from Silence are understood by those whose home is in Silence. Then we see and hear each other.

I'm going to share something I posted elsewhere here yesterday as it directly relates and will go to the rest of your points you are bringing up. When we speak from Silence with words, that is wholly different that when we speak from separation seeking a way to Unite. When we use words as a way for our mind's to try to grasp the Divine, we are in fact looking to the mind itself. We are stuck in thoughts. But to speak from Silence is not the mind seeking answers or connections or commonalities. It does not lead to reductionism, because it begins from Unity. The mind is already there. So this one member rightly said that if we say "God is love", isn't that putting a definition on the Absolute. My response was as follows:

It depends on which side of the Absolute you are speaking from, I suppose. I will say this about "God is Love", that is true in the sense of how it is experienced in the relative. In the highest expression of form, there is an infinite expression of Love, which itself arises from Formlessness, which itself has no defining quality. The Formless is not a thing, or has attributes, or a qualities, but from this the highest expressions of the world of form arise. I would say this is the realm of subtle light, pure form, in the relative side, "approaching lightspeed" as it were from my earlier analogy. The Hindus speak of this as Satcitananda, "being, consciousness, bliss". It is the, "sublimely blissful experience of the boundless, pure consciousness is a glimpse of ultimate reality". So "God is Love", is true, experienced at the highest state of the relative. And I will add this, this is not just abstract ideas. These are actual realized states of being. I have, and do experience Satchitananda myself. It's not a logical abstraction which has "no evidence". These are words to describe experience.​

So when we speak of the qualities or attributes of the Divine, it is not meant that one should trying to understand God with the mind. What it real says is that when you experience the Absolute, this is how it will be experienced by you. It is not saying "This is what God is", it is saying this is what the experience of God is as a human at the highest states of Realization. The key is not not seek an understanding, nor to seek this as an experience. But to seek Unity with Divine, letting go of all seeking for the self. When we speak of the Divine, we speak from that place of Realization. It is not attempting to map out God. It maps out the highest states of human awareness, the condition of them, and how it affects what the mind sees.

Words do not need to hinder the path, as long as one understands from which place they are coming from. Does the person speaking have experience, or is it all simply hypothetical and theoretical? Is it metaphysical speculations, or is it descriptive language from one who has actual experience? This is where the watershed point of words go into either reductionist thoughts, or into illuminative Wisdom. The same words can be used, but grasped either by the seeking mind, or heard with the spirit intent on freeing itself into Unity.

One last quote to underscore this. I came across this recently by Sri Aurobindo which I immediately connected with.

The intellect must consent to pass out of the bounds of a finite logic and accustom itself to the logic of the Infinite. On this condition alone, by this way of seeing and thinking, it ceases to be paradoxical or futile to speak of the ineffable: but if we insist on applying a finite logic to the Infinite, the omnipresent reality will escape us and we shall grasp instead an abstract shadow, a dead form petrified into speech or a hard incisive graph which speaks of the Reality but does not express it. Our way of knowing must be appropriate to that which is to be known

~Sri Aurobindo, Life Divine, pg.293​

This is what those who are hung up on the idea of "One right way!", fail again and again to hear and understand. You can, and should, speak from a place of Silence. Not just be silent, end of story. That is itself, hung up on an idea and not seeing beyond it into Silence. It is speaking from outside of Silence. It is speaking from the mind. We should seek to speak. But we should seek Silence in order for our words to have meaning about that Silence.

Would you consider this document, the Hsin Hsin Ming to be a description of the mystical experience?
Hsin Hsin Ming by Seng-ts'an, third zen patriarch, Terebess Asia Online (TAO)
I'm referring it back to this post of mine:

Alright. I have a theory I've been thinking about in the context of my curious style of transtheistic mysticism.

Mysticism is consciousness driven by uniting and finding an appreciation of commonalities, connections, and holism. (Akin to Buddhist "thusness or suchness.") Once you even start to try to speak about it, the connective process is hindered, as language and words are primarily about defining separation and differences: highlighting and naming something and drawing attention away from its connections, which leads to reductionism.

As human beings, all of us have the capacity for both reductionist and holistic cognition. Some give preference to one process over the other, which is fine. Both processes are needed and valuable. However, failure to recognize and honor personal boundaries can be a hallmark of narcissism. Failure to be able to discern and appreciate individualities, even if they remain unnamed, is the other side of the undesirable narcissistic coin. Overly reductionist thinking often leads to "throwing the baby out with the bathwater," can lead to nihilistic tendencies, and the value of holistic mysticism experience is lost.

What do you think? Does this resonate?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It can only happen by letting go.

Yes, and that's a progressive process.

 

[Windwalker]

Would you consider this document, the Hsin Hsin Ming to be a description of the mystical experience?
Hsin Hsin Ming by Seng-ts'an, third zen patriarch, Terebess Asia Online (TAO)
I'm referring it back to this post of mine:

What he saying in this is to find Emptiness. How he words it is towards the end to cease looking for what already is. We create the world of opposites, divisions that obscure the Emptiness that is all things. All objects are illusion. When you are in that place of realizing Emptiness there is Freedom from this illusion. Resting in Emptiness is a mystical experience. He is describing the Causal state. There are of course other states which are mystical experience as well, the Subtle and the Nondual states, the nondual being the highest.

Now to take what this Zen master was saying in light of what you referred to in your post, if I may make some comments? You stated, "Mysticism is consciousness driven by uniting and finding an appreciation of commonalities, connections, and holism". What he is describing is not the same as what you say here. I certainly appreciate your thoughts about finding an appreciation of commonalities and having a holistic view. I think everyone should think like this! Having a holistic view is a step towards a fuller view of the world and bring truly positive value to the individual and to the world their interact with. But this is not the same as realizing Emptiness as the Zen master was speaking of.

By trying to find commonalities, you are seeing divisions. By finding connecting patterns, though true and valid, it is still seeing distinctive differences and building connecting links between them. This does not dissolve differences. Letting go of seeing any differences at all, any distinctions, any opposites, any judgements whatsoever as to good or bad, true or false, valuable or worthless, and any judgment of yourself in the light of all of these rankings, all these evaluations, etc., begins to open one to see Emptiness. Doing this with the mind as an exercise, and I would recommend it to those who are ready, opens you to realization. It is not a cognitive realization, but simply a tool of letting go, and letting be, as he said in the link you shared. In this "let it be" dropping of all of these things of the mind, there is a pure clarity, a return to Source, one which simply sees without judgement. Everything is pure Emptiness.

A holistic view of the world is not the same as the Thus'ness or Such'ness. The "Is'ness" is just simply the wetness of each wave. Holism sees the connecting patterns of the waves. It sees the waves. Thus'ness make no distinctions. He says in this,

Emptiness changing into things
Is only our deluded view.
Do not seek the truth.
Only put down your opinions.​

There is again nothing wrong with seeking connecting patterns and I celebrate this, but he advises rightly so that if you seek find Emptiness, to look at patterns like this is seeing "things". To say "this is it," is to delude ourselves from full release. We have to put down any and all ideas about the way of things, including holistic views, in the goal of finding release from all thoughts.

To go along with what you shared from the Zen master, I'll share my favorite sutra which captures this as well,

Wanting nothing
With all your heart
Stop the stream.

When the world dissolves
Everything becomes clear.

Go beyond
This way or that way,
To the farther shore
Where the world dissolves
And everything becomes clear.

Beyond this shore
And the farther shore,
Beyond the beyond,
Where there is no beginning,
No end.

Without fear, go. ​

There is then what comes after this, which is the nondual. Where Emptiness and form are "Not two, not one". But to see Emptiness first, you have to let go of seeing divisions, and seeking for something that is already fully present at all time. What he speaking of is that process of "letting go". As he says, "Just let it be! In the end, Nothing goes, nothing stays". From this realization then, we enter into the world of form again, like the 10th panel of the Zen Oxherder paintings shows.

 

[Windwalker]

Yes, and that's a progressive process.

Yes it is, but only in the fact we have to learn to unlearn. The letting go part is very simple, like opening a window that was never there. Realizing that fact is what's hard because we have to let go of everything and every way we do things. You cannot "achieve" or "attain" enlightenment. Seeking with that mind, seeking at all, is heading the opposite direction from the outset. We have to make an effort, to make no effort at all.

 

[mystic64]

Yes it is, but only in the fact we have to learn to unlearn. The letting go part is very simple, like opening a window that was never there. Realizing that fact is what's hard because we have to let go of everything and every way we do things. You cannot "achieve" or "attain" enlightenment. Seeking with that mind, seeking at all, is heading the opposite direction from the outset. We have to make an effort, to make no effort at all.

"We have to make an effort, to make no effort at all." And again Windwalker your wisdom hits the nail on the head ! And of course we arrive at the "to make no effort at all" after we have exhausted all other possibilities . I love that part.

 

[mystic64]

I don't believe it was fantasy; I believe that we know so little about the human brain that such experiences may well have a scientific explanation that we haven't discovered yet. Maybe there are ways for us to voluntarily induce such experiences, too, but I don't know of any, and I don't think there are currently any scientifically supported methods to do so. That doesn't mean such methods can't be discovered in the future, but in my opinion, it means that we shouldn't jump to conclusions and try to fit supernatural beliefs into those experiences when we don't have anywhere near enough knowledge of the human brain or the origin of consciousness at this point in time.

Chemicals can create the experience and the experience can create the chemicals. Was it a chemical malfunction or did the experience create the chemical malfunction? Debater Slayer, I completely agree with what you are saying ! My educational background is in science and I have spent most of my life exploring the mystical experience. But, I consider the mystical to be taken with a grain of salt until it is actually backed up by science. If the mystical experience is real, which I am inclined to think it is, then it has to be measurable. If there is a God, then Its presence, when It is present, has got to be measurable. The problem is like colliding prototons at extremely high velocities, first you have to figure out how to do it and then you have to figure out how to measure the results of it being done. And in my opinion one can have a mystical experience that has absoultely nothing to do with God (for lack of any other term). An example would be Buddhists, they have mystical experiences that have absolutely nothing to do with God or the gods and goddessess.

The OP question was, "How would you explain your mystical experience?" My question would then become, "Which one?" The mystical experience comes in all kinds of different flavors and these different flavors all depend on what you have connected yourself to. All living things give off EMF frequencies as a part of the living processes and one can experience a mystical experience when they connect to this field of EMF frequencies that is created by the living things around them. Or they can have mystical experience when they connect to their higher self, or God, or any of the so called Divine. And they can have a mystical experience when they connect to the not so divine . There are a lot of things out there that when connected to can cause one to experience a mystical experience, as well as it can be caused by a malfunction in one's brain chemistry. The mystical experience I have when I connect to God is different than the mystical experience I have when I connect to the EMF field that is created by other living things. And, the mystical experience that I have when I connect to Lord Shiva, the Hindu god, is different is different than either one of the other two experiences. The mystical experience that I have when I connect to Lord Jesus is again a different experience. At the sametime, "How do we prove that any of this is real?" I have no idea .

 

[YmirGF]

Yes it is, but only in the fact we have to learn to unlearn. The letting go part is very simple, like opening a window that was never there. Realizing that fact is what's hard because we have to let go of everything and every way we do things. You cannot "achieve" or "attain" enlightenment. Seeking with that mind, seeking at all, is heading the opposite direction from the outset. We have to make an effort, to make no effort at all.

And then you let go of thoughts of enlightenment... till it no longer is of any concern. Personally speaking, I no longer actually believe in "enlightenment" but that is not to say that many experiences cannot be rather enlightening...

 

[roger1440]

An example would be Buddhists, they have mystical experiences that have absolutely nothing to do with God or the gods and goddessess.

We experience reality through the veil of our beliefs. Any experience must be reinforced by what we believe is real or true. This veil can and many times does distort our vision.

 

[crossfire]

Agree with Windwalker that clinging to oneness constitutes duality.

 

[YmirGF]

Agree with Windwalker that clinging to oneness constitutes duality.

I'd say that it is the Last Outpost, but sadly, it is not...

 

[Windwalker]

And then you let go of thoughts of enlightenment... till it no longer is of any concern. Personally speaking, I no longer actually believe in "enlightenment" but that is not to say that many experiences cannot be rather enlightening...

I've said it before but it bears repeating, enlightenment is only the beginning. People look to it as the end, you get off the path, you've arrived, destination complete, and that's it. In reality, there can be no end because the world is constantly in motion and we live within it so we are changing. As you see yourself reaching to Infinity, Infinity is constantly receding from you, so you can never arrive. It's like the carrot and mule. The Goal is always the Goal. Be the mule young man, be the mule.

I would say if I were to think of it in these terms we live enlightened in every receding moment. It's not a destination, but a condition of being in the world. That condition is unconditional freedom. The rest of it is knowing the ever-unfolding fullness of life. And how fully we live that is conditioned by how free we are. So enlightenment is simply the condition of being free. And from enlightenment we endlessly become the world. But if we just live in illusion, well then the fullness is not seen. So you do have to awaken first.

 

[Windwalker]

I'd say that it is the Last Outpost, but sadly, it is not...

We are ever peeling back the layers of an infinite onion. Maybe it is simpler just to drink a 12 pack and watch pro wrestling.

 

[mystic64]

I've said it before but it bears repeating, enlightenment is only the beginning. People look to it as the end, you get off the path, you've arrived, destination complete, and that's it. In reality, there can be no end because the world is constantly in motion and we live within it so we are changing. As you see yourself reaching to Infinity, Infinity is constantly receding from you, so you can never arrive. It's like the carrot and mule. The Goal is always the Goal. Be the mule young man, be the mule.

I would say if I were to think of it in these terms we live enlightened in every receding moment. It's not a destination, but a condition of being in the world. That condition is unconditional freedom. The rest of it is knowing the ever-unfolding fullness of life. And how fully we live that is conditioned by how free we are. So enlightenment is simply the condition of being free. And from enlightenment we endlessly become the world. But if we just live in illusion, well then the fullness is not seen. So you do have to awaken first.

I agree.

 

[mystic64]

We experience reality through the veil of our beliefs. Any experience must be reinforced by what we believe is real or true. This veil can and many times does distort our vision.

I for the most part agree roger1440, but one can get beyond one's beliefs and culture, which then will change the experience. But before one can do that they have to forget "everything" that they think that they know and start over. Which is, "ya right, I don't think so ."

 

[mystic64]

We are ever peeling back the layers of an infinite onion. Maybe it is simpler just to drink a 12 pack and watch pro wrestling.

Windwalker what do you think would happen if one went to the heart of the onion and then watched it create the layers? Could one do this as a mystic?

 

[crossfire]

Windwalker what do you think would happen if one went to the heart of the onion and then watched it create the layers? Could one do this as a mystic?

Be sure you take your fuzzy blanket if you try.