Wealth Inequality in America: Viral Video

[Revoltingest]

Those rare few make a six figure income. I'm talking about principal dancers of major companies who finally can command about $120,000 a year. Not the multi millions of sports stars.
Professional athletes can afford to go to the doctor, at the very least. The vast majority of professional dancers can't afford three meals in a day, they typically sublet apartments with 6 other dancers at a time to afford a place to live, and are uninsured because they can't afford health insurance premiums. Highly skilled workers that have studied and worked at their craft for decades, and they can't afford clothes that didn't come off a second hand store rack.

But many semi-pro athletes are in the same boat as dancers at the margin. If they want to pursue a
sport, hobby or art which few dollars chase, I see no reason I must support them. There are things
I love to do which few will pay for, but I don't expect government to shower me with subsidies so
that I can quit my day job.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If some choose jobs which simply don't pay that well, when they could've chosen a better one, then I see no obligation to
support them. There just isn't a lot of demand for live dance performances, & dancers know this when entering the field.

We know there IS a demand for quality performance art, and we also are well aware of how much of the revenue that is made from the arts are channeled to those of the most upper crust of the field.

If I decide my life's calling is to be a street mime trapped in an invisible box,
should you be forced to cover my income-v-expense shortfall?

If you as a street mime created value to audiences everywhere, a kind of value that isn't matched by other professions, and you had to take your earnings to the people that owned the real estate around you because they felt they deserved a piece of your work, I would expect you as a street mime to be able to keep more of your revenue to meet basic living expenses.

And not dole out the majority of your earnings to real estate owners who have the attorneys and the investors to bully you out of what you worked for because they're looking to make a buck wherever possible.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But many semi-pro athletes are in the same boat as dancers at the margin. If they want to pursue a
sport, hobby or art which few dollars chase, I see no reason I must support them. There are things
I love to do which few will pay for, but I don't expect government to shower me with subsidies so
that I can quit my day job.

1) Where did I say anything about government?
2) Semi-professional athletes are not in the same boat as PROFESSIONAL dancers who work 8-10 hours a day on their craft.
3) There's a lot more cash flow evidently (I'm finding this out more as I'm moving up the gravy train in my own profession), but that cash flow makes it more often into the hands of very rich who pay lip service to "support" the arts than those who actually do the work.

 

[BSM1]

Your point was that minimum wage is for unskilled or entry level positions. My point is that you are wrong. There are many skilled, non-entry, positions out there that pay minimum wage, or little more.

And there is virtually no difference if you are working for minimum wage, or a dollar over minimum wage. Neither is a livable amount.

No, my point was that if you are stuck at minimum wage you have the freedom to try and better yourself and your position in a free market society. If your wife (or anyone in any field) chooses to stay in her occupation,then she knows what the pay out is going to be; it's up to her to change the outcome. It seems your point is that she should be compensated (on a relative scale of course) the same for trimming the dogs nails as the vet that may have to do complicated surgery on the animal. Which skill should command more money?

 

[BSM1]

1) Where did I say anything about government?
2) Semi-professional athletes are not in the same boat as PROFESSIONAL dancers who work 8-10 hours a day on their craft.
3) There's a lot more cash flow evidently (I'm finding this out more as I'm moving up the gravy train in my own profession), but that cash flow makes it more often into the hands of very rich who pay lip service to "support" the arts than those who actually do the work.

If you want satisfaction, do what makes you happy. If you want money, do what makes others happy.

 

[Father Heathen]

What sort of economic system would Buddha or Jesus support? No, that wasn't rhetorical.

 

[Revoltingest]

We know there IS a demand for quality performance art, and we also are well aware of how much of the revenue that is made from the arts are channeled to those of the most upper crust of the field.

Of course, when I say there isn't a lot of demand, it's about how companies (who aren't major players) can't pay their dancers well.
The same is true with actors & musicians. One of ourt local pro piano players (Mr B) is a carpenter by trade.
[youtube]LPB9JC3VMoI[/youtube]
Mr. B "Pinetop's Boogie Woogie" Live in the Big Apple - YouTube

If you as a street mime created value to audiences everywhere, a kind of value that isn't matched by other professions, and you had to take your earnings to the people that owned the real estate around you because they felt they deserved a piece of your work, I would expect you as a street mime to be able to keep more of your revenue to meet basic living expenses.

I don't follow this.
Do neighboring real estate owners demand a portion of your box office revenue?

And not dole out the majority of your earnings to real estate owners who have the attorneys and the investors to bully you out of what you worked for because they're looking to make a buck wherever possible.

Again, I don't see what problem you're describing.
Are you talking about having to rent the space you use?

 

[Revoltingest]

1) Where did I say anything about government?

You didn't. But I introduced it because it's so often brought up as the solution to people wanting more pay than a free market delivers.

2) Semi-professional athletes are not in the same boat as PROFESSIONAL dancers who work 8-10 hours a day on their craft.

Many are in that very boat. Hours will vary from person to person, just as in dance.
Example: You know The Rock, who now has an acting career under his real name, Dwayne Johnson.
When starting out in Canuckistanian football, he was so poor he got his suspiciously stained mattress
from the trash. Imagine how low one must be to use bedding so old & nasty that it would be discarded
by some hoser from Calgary!

3) There's a lot more cash flow evidently (I'm finding this out more as I'm moving up the gravy train in my own profession), but that cash flow makes it more often into the hands of very rich who pay lip service to "support" the arts than those who actually do the work.

How are the rich siphoning off your revenue? Is it without your permission, or is it part of some contractual relationship?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If you want satisfaction, do what makes you happy. If you want money, do what makes others happy.

There is a value that the arts bring to people, is there not?

I love these discussions.

 

[BSM1]

What sort of economic system would Buddha or Jesus support? No, that wasn't rhetorical.

Yeshua was big on getting your lazy butt out in the fields and go to work. He also gave the parable of the vineyard where each person agreed to work for a given sum. At the end of the day there seem to be some inequality in pay. However, the grower said you knew what the pay was going in and you agreed to it. Does it matter what others make?
Jesus, by no stretch of the imagination, was a Socialist.

 

[BSM1]

[q

uote=MysticSang'ha;3257159]There is a value that the arts bring to people, is there not?

I love these discussions.

[/QUOTE]

Spiritually, maybe. Monetarily, jump ball.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yeshua was big on getting your lazy butt out in the fields and go to work. He also gave the parable of the vineyard where each person agreed to work for a given sum. At the end of the day there seem to be some inequality in pay. However, the grower said you knew what the pay was going in and you agreed to it. Does it matter what others make?
Jesus, by no stretch of the imagination, was a Socialist.

He just had socialistic tendencies....riest:

 

[BSM1]

He just had socialistic tendencies....riest:

Really? How so?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Of course, when I say there isn't a lot of demand, it's about how companies (who aren't major players) can't pay their dancers well.

Can't, or choose not to. My argument has been consistent with my argument about cash flow being transferred upward at a rate that is bloated and unethical.

The same is true with actors & musicians. One of ourt local pro piano players (Mr B) is a carpenter by trade.
[youtube]LPB9JC3VMoI[/youtube]
Mr. B "Pinetop's Boogie Woogie" Live in the Big Apple - YouTube

Talent in the arts does not automatically equate to people just making a few bucks off a "hobby." Say Mr. B decided to meet a demand for touring, more people wanting to see him play, or to go into the studio for recording? That takes time and practice and finding venues, working with box offices and studio managers, and he still earns the same income as he did before when this was simply a side venture for him.

Something isn't working right in that picture. He will find out, as many other performance artists find out right away, that something in the system is broken.

I don't follow this.
Do neighboring real estate owners demand a portion of your box office revenue?

The metaphor is that performance artists - including street artists - are often approached by major corporate sponsors who offer a platform for their performances, enter into contractual agreements with these artists to perform, pull audiences, make money, and then stiff these artists of even a living wage. The artists don't have representation nor the money to pay for the attorneys to take them to court to be compensated what they were promised, and so the vast majority of them wind up having no choice but to take the experience, having a place to sleep when they toured, and drinking a V8 every now and then when the company said they can't pay them any money until 2 weeks from that moment.

Again, I don't see what problem you're describing.
Are you talking about having to rent the space you use?

Read the above. I've been through these experiences first hand, listened to other professionals who have been through these experiences, and have been in the industry long enough to know how deeply corrupt people can be.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

[q

Spiritually, maybe. Monetarily, jump ball.[/QUOTE]

Ah, I see somebody needs some education on what the arts bring to a society. AND to the sciences. :yes:

 

[Revoltingest]

Can't, or choose not to. My argument has been consistent with my argument about cash flow being transferred upward at a rate that is bloated and unethical.

If dancers are being paid poverty wages when higher wages are possible, this would point to dancers flooding
the market, & willing to work for these low wages. (Is the same true of other artists, eg, actors & musicians?)

Talent in the arts does not automatically equate to people just making a few bucks off a "hobby." Say Mr. B decided to meet a demand for touring, more people wanting to see him play, or to go into the studio for recording? That takes time and practice and finding venues, working with box offices and studio managers, and he still earns the same income as he did before when this was simply a side venture for him.
Something isn't working right in that picture. He will find out, as many other performance artists find out right away, that something in the system is broken.

Or the system is working just fine, but he isn't able to give up work as a carpenter to support himself as he sees fit.

The metaphor is that performance artists - including street artists - are often approached by major corporate sponsors who offer a platform for their performances, enter into contractual agreements with these artists to perform, pull audiences, make money, and then stiff these artists of even a living wage. The artists don't have representation nor the money to pay for the attorneys to take them to court to be compensated what they were promised, and so the vast majority of them wind up having no choice but to take the experience, having a place to sleep when they toured, and drinking a V8 every now and then when the company said they can't pay them any money until 2 weeks from that moment.

Is this situation of corporations cheating artists out of contractually agreed upon compensation the norm? Anyway, welcome to the world of small
business, wherein we regularly do battle with our "accounts receivables". Often they're giants who are willing to employ an expensive scorched
Earth campaign we just can't afford. One could say that only the lawyers win, but my lawyers also have problems collecting debts. The biggest
law firm bankruptcy in the country happened to one lawyer I know. The legal system is a slow, haphazard & expensive nightmare which benefits
deadbeats. It's also rigged in favor of the consumer (from a landlord's perspective) Life is not fair, & never will be.

Read the above. I've been through these experiences first hand, listened to other professionals who have been through these experiences, and have been in the industry long enough to know how deeply corrupt people can be.

If an industry is so rife with corruption that one cannot make a living, then it would be wise to start a business elsewhere.
That's one reason I'm not in the crystal meth manufacturing or distribution fields.
(I thank Breaking Bad for dispelling my notions of getting rich there.)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Oh, and I do love these discussions that lead to justification of the vast majority of people in an entire demographic that are starving, homeless, without access to medicine outside of the E.R.....that they really don't deserve it unless they do "real work."

And then assume that people like me who wish to change the system are just a bunch of Commies who don't believe in a free market and want to give a paycheck from tax revenue to any schmuck who can "shuffle off to buffalo." The assumption is that I want to reward poor people by stealing from everybody else and give to dancers who deserve to be poor. And the cognitive dissonance that exists is that people in my profession are being stolen FROM and being given to the rich.

I posted an article not too long ago that said, "If dancers didn't sometimes sleep with rich people, the industry would cease to exist." And there's a lot of truth to that statement.

Anybody been to fundraiser galas? I have. How many people are aware of the hookups that happen when you mix people with a lot of money who are looking for a good time with people who physically display a tremendous athleticism and refinement?

I'm not saying that hookups should be banned. Heck, some fond memories have come out of these very galas.....of politicians, deacons, doctors, attorneys.....

 

[BSM1]

Spiritually, maybe. Monetarily, jump ball.

Ah, I see somebody needs some education on what the arts bring to a society. AND to the sciences. :yes:

[/QUOTE]

I love both art and science, but art is truly in the eye of the beholder. I still don't get Jackson Pollock but I can't afford him either.

 

[BSM1]

Oh, and I do love these discussions that lead to justification of the vast majority of people in an entire demographic that are starving, homeless, without access to medicine outside of the E.R.....that they really don't deserve it unless they do "real work."

And then assume that people like me who wish to change the system are just a bunch of Commies who don't believe in a free market and want to give a paycheck from tax revenue to any schmuck who can "shuffle off to buffalo." The assumption is that I want to reward poor people by stealing from everybody else and give to dancers who deserve to be poor. And the cognitive dissonance that exists is that people in my profession are being stolen FROM and being given to the rich.

I posted an article not too long ago that said, "If dancers didn't sometimes sleep with rich people, the industry would cease to exist." And there's a lot of truth to that statement.

Anybody been to fundraiser galas? I have. How many people are aware of the hookups that happen when you mix people with a lot of money who are looking for a good time with people who physically display a tremendous athleticism and refinement?

I'm not saying that hookups should be banned. Heck, some fond memories have come out of these very galas.....of politicians, deacons, doctors, attorneys.....

I think your post holds a valuable point. People should help the poor and less fortunate. This is rewarding and laudable. But people should not be forced to help the poor and less fortunate. This is theft.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If dancers are being paid poverty wages when higher wages are possible, this would point to dancers flooding
the market, & willing to work for these low wages. (Is the same true of other artists, eg, actors & musicians?)

The performance arts in general. The dance industry is the one I am most familiar with.

Or the system is working just fine, but he isn't able to give up work as a carpenter to support himself as he sees fit.

Is this situation of corporations cheating artists out of contractually agreed upon compensation the norm? Anyway, welcome to the world of small business, wherein we regularly do battle with our "accounts receivables". One could say that only the lawyers win, but my lawyers also have problems collecting debts. The biggest law firm bankruptcy in the country happened to one lawyer I know. Life is not fair, & never will be.

I guess I had my rude awakening 20 years ago then. Rev, I'm well aware of how life isn't fair. But people can and should play by the rules. You can play football and assume the risks of getting hurt, assume the risk of losing the game, and assume a lot of things, but the rules should still be followed. If you play football and the other team buys out the referees at your expense, you're not just bellyaching if you cry foul and call them out for corruption.

That's not a fact of life, and it shouldn't be.

If an industry is so rife with corruption that one cannot make a living, then it would be wise to start a business elsewhere.
That's one reason I'm not in the crystal meth manufacturing or distribution fields.
(I thank Breaking Bad for dispelling my notions of getting rich there.)

LOL this notion of simply going to another industry is a big reason why there's a large attrition rate in the arts. When you have quality artists who can't make a living, who go elsewhere, then what happens to the arts industry? Does it improve? Does it devolve?

Why should we bow to corruption? Why shouldn't we fight it? It's wise not to give up, but to have the cajones to stand for integrity when corruption is rife.

I'm surprised somebody like you is having a problem with that concept. You understand it well when it comes to government corruption. You have no problem addressing it and offering how those in power ought to be outed. I'm suggesting that these very people as well as those in power in the market are taking advantage of a corrupt system that is none less than a Ponzi Scheme.

Should it be music to your ears that I have called out people in my industry that vote straight-ticket Democrat?