WE (I) BELIEVE IN THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY.

[Iymus]

When God said "us" their must be someone next Him. And Jesus was the only being that can get close to His Father God.

At a minimum, I believe I can say the Holy Spirit and only begotten Son of God was there and included; in regards to any other Heavenly Hosts I cannot say.

Isa 48:16

1Jn 5:7

Pro 30:4

 

[Unveiled Artist]

AGAIN, MY QUESTION IS, WHERE IN THE BIBLE I CAN READ THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS SPEAKING WITH JESUS, GOD THE FATHER OR BOTH. OR BOTH ARE SPEAKING WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. ALL THAT YOU HAVE SEND I DIDN'T SEE ANY WORDS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS SAID TO GOD OR BOTH.

Holy spirit isn't an entity. It's what Christians call love and grace and is god because he is the things that pulls the body together in Christ. Instead of thinking of them as people, think if them as having different functions of one whole. My best guess of trinitarian view without too much influenced of hard literalist of Trinity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Don't tell me that you've never heard an *** talk.

Haha. No. It hasn't given me advice on god or anything. Just noise.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But that actually would defy what we call "the Mystery of the Trinity", namely that we have no ability to even get close to fully understand this. Over and over again in the NT, Jesus refers to God as if He was a separate entity, plus the "son" simply cannot literally be the Father.

Again, the use of the concept of "essence" really does put this into a much more logical and scriptural-compatible perspective, plus that's also used with the Eucharist as we read in scripture.

No, we can't understand the Trinity completely and logically, as if it's a mathematical equation. But we can understand or at least recognize that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all fully and equally God. Hence, why Mary is called the Theotokos (God-bearer). It's not a metaphor or anything. Jesus is literally God incarnate in Nicean Christianity.

No, the Father and Son are not the same Persons. Trinitarianism doesn't teach that. You also have to keep in mind that Christ is fully God and fully man, so sometimes He taught from His human perspective as an example for how we should live. Christ leads and sets the example. He's our High Priest and archetype.

 

[Iymus]

Holy spirit isn't an entity. It's what Christians call love and grace and is god because he is the things that pulls the body together in Christ. Instead of thinking of them as people, think if them as having different functions of one whole. My best guess of trinitarian view without too much influenced of hard literalist of Trinity.

Not sure how one can take part in sending someone, be mentioned as one of three bearing witness, and not be referred to as an entity or one existence

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When God said "us" their must be someone next Him. And Jesus was the only being that can get close to His Father God.

There is a great Biblical passage yet to be deeply considered in the context of a 'New Day of God', that I see started in 1844.

Acts 7:55

"But he, being full of the 'Holy Ghost', looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the 'glory of God' , and 'Jesus' standing on the right hand of 'God'"

Stephen inspired by the Holy Spirit has seen Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) the "Father" and Jesus Christ the "Son" standing on the right hand of God.

I see the Bible and no Prophet has ever described God, as God is unknowable.

I see all we can know of God is the Messenger, but they are created of the Holy Spirit which can be said to also have been created from God.

Big topic though, so if you wish, we can discuss.

Regards Tony

 

[metis]

No, we can't understand the Trinity completely and logically, as if it's a mathematical equation. But we can understand or at least recognize that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all fully and equally God. Hence, why Mary is called the Theotokos (God-bearer). It's not a metaphor or anything. Jesus is literally God incarnate in Nicean Christianity.

No, the Father and Son are not the same Persons. Trinitarianism doesn't teach that. You also have to keep in mind that Christ is fully God and fully man, so sometimes He taught from His human perspective as an example for how we should live. Christ leads and sets the example. He's our High Priest and archetype.

Again, I think you're overlooking the use of "essence" in this, thus slipping into literalism. There simply is no remotely logical way whatsoever to have the son be his own Father.

IMO, it is Greek philosophy that's being used, but being many generation removed from the actual writings does allow for more than enough time for deification by many.

Either way, I simply don't lose any sleep over this.

Take care.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Again, I think you're overlooking the use of "essence" in this, thus slipping into literalism. There simply is no remotely logical way whatsoever to have the son be his own Father.

IMO, it is Greek philosophy that's being used, but being many generation removed from the actual writings does allow for more than enough time for deification by many.

Either way, I simply don't lose any sleep over this.

Take care.

The Trinity doctrine doesn't propose that the Son is the Father. They are different Persons of the Trinity. Shield of the Trinity - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Again, I think you're overlooking the use of "essence" in this, thus slipping into literalism. There simply is no remotely logical way whatsoever to have the son be his own Father.

IMO, it is Greek philosophy that's being used, but being many generation removed from the actual writings does allow for more than enough time for deification by many.

Either way, I simply don't lose any sleep over this.

Take care.

It is good not to loose sleep over this, as one may never sleep

To me the explanations given by Baha'u'llah has given the logical answer to this age old divisive subject.

Simply, God can never been known in Essence, it is beyond the given capability of our mind. It is also noted in the Holy Books, that even the Messengers do not know the Essence of God.

Thus all we can know of God is the Messenger, given by God, created of the Holy Spirit. They are the 'Self of God' amongst us, as they are God's Will and Purpose for humanity. They are the creative force sent forth from God. (They are the embodiment of the Attributes)

Big topic, as are all topics when we mention God, as it is unlimited.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Trinity doctrine doesn't propose that the Son is the Father. They are different Persons of the Trinity. Shield of the Trinity - Wikipedia

I see both the Son and the Father are not God.

I see they are all we can know of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I see both the Son and the Father are not God.

I see they are all we can know of God.

Regards Tony

That's nice, but I didn't ask you.

 

[LightofTruth]

Correct.

Only if one allows one's self to fall victim to literalism. For example, Jesus at one point says "I and the Father are one". If one takes that literally, then that goes against what you and I believe. Instead, I believe that statement should be taken figuratively, which is also what "essence" implies in this context. IOW, Jesus is of the Father, much like the bread & wine are of Jesus' body & blood.

Again, the use of "essence" was heavily used not only with the Greeks themselves but also amongst scholars within the Mediterranean region. Even today, well over 2000 years later, we talk about the likes of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, etc. as if they lived not that long ago.

ALL scripture must be put into the context of the language and culture it was originally used in, thus the fact that Koine Greek was the language used to pen the NT is quite important.

Where is the word essence found in Scripture?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's nice, but I didn't ask you.

Ha ha, then to you it was not nice.

Regards Tony.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not sure how one can take part in sending someone, be mentioned as one of three bearing witness, and not be referred to as an entity or one existence

I'd say spirit and entity are two different things. The spirit of love and grace wouldn't need to be an entity or being in order to be, say the glue to people's connection to god through Christ.

Referring to spirit as a person helps people identify and interact with it, for lack of better words. But it's said as the spirit "of" Christ that followers are liven by Christ not Christ himself-the person.

Does it make a difference to refer to the spirit as from Christ as opposed to Christ himself? Or are they synonyms?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Where is the word essence found in Scripture?

 

[Dogknox20]

AGAIN, MY QUESTION IS, WHERE IN THE BIBLE I CAN READ THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS SPEAKING WITH JESUS, GOD THE FATHER OR BOTH. OR BOTH ARE SPEAKING WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. ALL THAT YOU HAVE SEND I DIDN'T SEE ANY WORDS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS SAID TO GOD OR BOTH.

I REPLY>>>> The Holy Spirit has all the attributes of a person, the Holy Spirit is God!

Acts 13:2, the Holy Spirit says, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 10:19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three men are looking for you. 20 So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”
1 Corinthians 12:11 states that the Holy Spirit “wills,” which is an irrefutable attribute of personhood, as is the capacity to love we see demonstrated by the Spirit.
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Pipiripi John 16 mentions the Holy Spirit as a “he” 10 times in the same chapter.

Scripture also states that the Holy Spirit can: *BE LIED TO Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
*The Holy Spirit speaks
Acts 10:19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three men are looking for you. 20 So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”
*The Holy Spirit Hears.
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
*The Holy Spirit knows the future ..
Acts 21:11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”
*The Holy Spirit testifies..
John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.
*The Holy Spirit teaches...
John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
*The Holy Spirit will reprove ..
John 16:8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
*The Holy Spirit will pray and intercede...
Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
*The Holy Spirit GUIDES the Church
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
*The Holy Spirit calls..
Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
*The Holy Spirit grieves..
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
*The Holy Spirit feels hurt..
Isa 63:10 Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
*The Holy Spirit is outraged/insulted..
Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
*The Holy Spirit desires..
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
*The Holy Spirit can be Blasphemed..
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
Pipiripi Only a person is capable of all these attributes!

To lie to the Holy Spirit is to lie to GOD!
Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. 3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

Isaiah 44:24 insists that God alone created the heavens and the earth.
“This is what the Lord says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the Lord,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
BUT Job tells you the Holy Spirit did the work..
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
The Holy Spirit created..
Psalms 104:30 When you send your Spirit,
they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.
Only God is everlasting..
Heb 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
There is ONE LORD...
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
There is ONE Creator...
Malache 2:10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
God is the Spirit...
2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Only God creates but so does the Holy Spirit
Psalm 104:30 When you send your Spirit,
they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.

 

[Dogknox20]

My friend didn't you haven't see on YouTube how the Pope says that Jesus and the Bible is a liar? Go and hear it for yourself. And also that they sing and worship satan? Begin to read the Bible. I know that the devil doesn't like me to write the complete truth of God in any Forums that believe in the Trinity doctrine. Sooner I will be banned.

Pipiripi what you heard of YouTube is a lie! The Pope is the Voice of Jesus until Jesus returns.. He is the Shepherd of God' Holy Flock! Christians have always taught Jesus is God the scriptures are very clear! Thomas tells us.. "Jesus is God and Lord" Jesus does not correct Thomas in fact, Jesus takes it further.. Jesus tells us Christians who believe as Thomas in the future will be blessed!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Pope is the Voice of Jesus until Jesus returns..

No, he isn't. He's the leader of the earthly Church in terms of a point of unity but he isn't the voice of God. That's going too far.

 

[Iymus]

I'd say spirit and entity are two different things. The spirit of love and grace wouldn't need to be an entity or being in order to be, say the glue to people's connection to god through Christ.

Referring to spirit as a person helps people identify and interact with it, for lack of better words. But it's said as the spirit "of" Christ that followers are liven by Christ not Christ himself-the person.

Does it make a difference to refer to the spirit as from Christ as opposed to Christ himself? Or are they synonyms?

Correct English translation Bible of Matthew 28:19 ?

How many individuals are mentioned? I counted three but perhaps mistaken.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Correct English translation Bible of Matthew 28:19 ?

How many individuals are mentioned? I counted three but perhaps mistaken.

Father, creator
Son, savior
Spirit, love, grace, etc

You can call them people for convinence but their natures are creator, human, spirit just the same.