Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Something like: he is my Lord, my master, my god, rather than "the" god. He's referring to the relationship he has with Christ not referring to Christ as god.
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WE (I) BELIEVE IN THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY.
- Thread starter Pipiripi
- Start date
Something like: he is my Lord, my master, my god, rather than "the" god. He's referring to the relationship he has with Christ not referring to Christ as god.
Then you're making Thomas into a polytheist which is out of the question. I'm not sure why Catholics (especially a practicing one) would want to explain away one of the most blatant Trinitarian verses in the Gospels as not saying what a plain reading of it suggests.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I say trinitarian view, Jesus is the wave. God is the ocean. Non trinitarian maybe Jesus is the Rick's and trees and god is the river and ocean in which the former are under. One scene but different characteristics unique to themselves that make it up.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
How so?
The term god as in "you are my god, lord, master" is saying the person who speaks these words are "subject to" the person he is saying it to.
So Thomas is referring to Christ as he refers to god/entity because Christ said to get to god/creator is to go through him.
Maybe you can argue Thomas was delusional for seeing Christ as the creator but I'd say since Christ is the Way, it would make sense Thomas would refer to his relationship with Christ by saying lord and god. Maybe he can't tell the difference between the two. I doubt it though.
I'm not sure how polytheism plays in, though. Can you clarify?
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
My brother if you have pray before that you have read, then you will know who the Holy Spirit is. I'm gonna explain a little more in the topic. Bless.
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
When God said "us" their must be someone next Him. And Jesus was the only being that can get close to His Father God.
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
Again where can I read that the Holy Spirit has talk to the Father Jesus or both? The Adventist church of seven day, has rejected the VERY FOUNDATION OF THE PIONEERS. After the dead of the pioneers and the others, Leroy Froom has brought the Trinity doctrine in the church. And they believe that he was a Jesuit entering the church and search in Ellen G White writings to find something to bring the Trinity teaching in the church. That why WE FEW in that church are following only the pioneers and the BIBLE.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Note... Arius was a CATHOLIC he was NOT a Seventh Day ..... Arius was "AMONG Catholics" Catholics were NOT among Arius, this prophesy can only work in the one direction! Arius was removed from AMONG Catholics as a False Teacher "A Heretic"! Arius rejected that Jesus is God; just as the SDA!
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
Arius brought "The Way of Truth into disrepute!" Clearly The Way of TRUTH is the Catholic Church! Clearly Arius the heretic was a False teacher who brought disrepute to the Catholic Church!
To reject the Catholic Church is to reject "The Way Of Truth"!
To reject the Catholic Church is to reject the scriptures!
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
My friend didn't you haven't see on YouTube how the Pope says that Jesus and the Bible is a liar? Go and hear it for yourself. And also that they sing and worship satan? Begin to read the Bible. I know that the devil doesn't like me to write the complete truth of God in any Forums that believe in the Trinity doctrine. Sooner I will be banned.
Pipiripi
End Times Prophecy.
Where in the Bible I can read God the Father, God the Son and GOD HOLY SPIRIT? And specially GOD HOLY SPIRIT.
It would be polytheism if it were as you suggest because it would be saying Christ is another deity besides God. The most straightforward interpretation is just that Thomas was recognizing Christ as God and the Lord, not separate from the Father.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
No. I'm saying Christ is a medium to god (a human medium) and because he was chosen and blessed (baptized etc) by his god (not himself), his god gave him the authority and followers permission to call his son (not him as his son) god, master, and lord. No other person would deserve that title but Christ and his god.
Thomas is saying I am subjected to Christ because he is the intermediary between me (Thomas) and my god (the creator).
The Trinity would be a unity if the church (not evangelist...they see things literal) if Christ were the creator (no polytheism).
Anther way to see it is you go to the Eucharist (Christ) to be joined as a church (by holy spirit) and through the church (body of Christ/communion), you are one with god/the creator.
The church sees them equal. The language reflects this.
Thomas refers to Christ as master and god because Christ is the way To god not god himself (polytheism would be seeing Christ as god, creator as god, and holy spirit as god). It's always been a Tri-nity not a uni-ty regardless the language used.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Who's talking about vodka?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
But that actually would defy what we call "the Mystery of the Trinity", namely that we have no ability to even get close to fully understand this. Over and over again in the NT, Jesus refers to God as if He was a separate entity, plus the "son" simply cannot literally be the Father.
Again, the use of the concept of "essence" really does put this into a much more logical and scriptural-compatible perspective, plus that's also used with the Eucharist as we read in scripture.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Complete unadulterated nonsense.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not in the literalistic sense. [see my post #55]
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Okay, I think I'm on the "recovering" side of the shock I first experienced in our encounter. I've had a chance to look around and read myself into a new frame of mind.
- When someone says they belong to a pre-existing Christian denomination, they press buttons that turn on the brain's "assumption, bias, and stereotype" factory.
- The fact that you identified yourself as a Seventh-Day-Adventist of the Pioneers pushed my assumption, bias, and stereotype buttons. It so happens that my favorite great-grandmother and favorite cousins were and are SDAs, It also so happens that I'm familiar with some of their formal practices, such as: sabbatarianism, no pork/no nicotine/no caffeine products, and the like; and I'm slightly familiar with events in their historical development. That certainly doesn't make me an expert on Adventist theology and practices, but it was enough to provide me with fodder for my assumption, bias, and stereotype factory.
- For the record, my initial negative reaction was to your claim that something you wrote "proves the 'co-equal' Trinity God to be false." IMO, the doctrine of the Triune God, consisting of three distinct and co-equal Persons, is not falsifiable.
I don't understand your question.
I have now read a little "history" that I didn't know.
- The SDA Pioneers were anti-trinitarian. I didn't know that.
- Mainstream SDA's official position is Trinitarian. That's what I thought.
- So, your anti-trinitarian position is a departure from mainstream SDA adventism and "a return" to the adventism of "the Pioneers". Knock yourself out.
- Moreover, your beliefs regarding Jesus appear to be more or less orthodox.
- So, it looks like you're a "Binitarian": From: What Is Binitarianism?
- Binitarianism is the rare belief that the Holy Spirit is not God while the Father and the Son are God. It differs from Arianism in that it affirms that the Son is God while disagreeing with trinitarianism by denying that the Holy Spirit shares equally with the Father and the Son the one divine nature. It reduces the Holy Spirit to God’s active force and makes him a created being. This viewpoint was common among the semi-Arians of the fourth century who were known as the pneumatomachi or those who fight against the Spirit. The leading spokesman for this group was Macedonius I, bishop of Constantinople. Eusebius of Caesarea and Origen could be classified as binitarians since they held that the Spirit is a created being though they often subordinated the Son to the Father (Khaled Anatolios, Retrieving Nicaea, 67; Eusebius, Ecclesiastical Theology 3.6.3; Origen, Commentary on John 2.6). Binitarianism was seen most recently in the beliefs of Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God.
The reason why there are so few binitarians is because while they deny the deity of the Holy Spirit, they also deny the chief argument used against trinitarianism: the divine nature cannot be shared by more than one person or else this would lead to polytheism. While they are not trinitarians, they have no problem with God existing as more than one person. But very few of those we might classify as binitarians are true binitarians. They cannot consistently argue against trinitarianism while at the same time affirming that the divine nature can be shared by more than one person. This is why binitarians almost always hold to some form of subordinationism in their understanding of the relationship between the Father and the Son. They are not actually true binitarians, but we call them this because they refer to the Son as God even though there is almost always some qualification in their assertion that the Son is God.
While some scholars assert that the apostolic church fathers were binitarians and trinitarianism only developed later, there is ample evidence to indicate this is incorrect. One of the most common titles for the Holy Spirit in the writings of the early church is “Divine Spirit” which affirms that the Spirit is divine or God (Justin Martyr, First Apology 32; Dialogue with Trypho 7; Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians 9; Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5.8.2). The trinitarian formula of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is common throughout their writings and the Spirit is always closely associated with God. An example of this can be seen in Athenagoras: “Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?” (A Plea for the Christians 10). The Spirit is viewed as the one who created all things (Shepherd of Hermas, Similitude 5.6.5). And only God created all things (Isa 44:24).
- Binitarianism is the rare belief that the Holy Spirit is not God while the Father and the Son are God. It differs from Arianism in that it affirms that the Son is God while disagreeing with trinitarianism by denying that the Holy Spirit shares equally with the Father and the Son the one divine nature. It reduces the Holy Spirit to God’s active force and makes him a created being. This viewpoint was common among the semi-Arians of the fourth century who were known as the pneumatomachi or those who fight against the Spirit. The leading spokesman for this group was Macedonius I, bishop of Constantinople. Eusebius of Caesarea and Origen could be classified as binitarians since they held that the Spirit is a created being though they often subordinated the Son to the Father (Khaled Anatolios, Retrieving Nicaea, 67; Eusebius, Ecclesiastical Theology 3.6.3; Origen, Commentary on John 2.6). Binitarianism was seen most recently in the beliefs of Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God.
- So, you're a "rare bird" and the first binitarian that I've encountered anywhere.
Either there's an echo in this thread or your record is broken and repeating itself. In either case, the repetition of your silly request is starting to become annoying, which doesn't reflect well on your proselytizing. That is what you're doing, you know? Proselytizing. I suspect, as you seem to also, that it won't be long before you're banned.
Before you are banned, perhaps you could answer a question for me, if it's not too much for you to handle. Who trusts God more? Trinitarians or Non-trinitarians.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Where on earth did you hear that? (Honestly.... Do you have a YouTube video on that? With 'him' saying it)
Song of Satan? Song about Christ is singing of Satan? I've gone to mass for years and never ever heard such a thing.
This forum has people of various views from strict JW to hard Stone biblical literalist (so Moses actually parted the read sea...and donkeys do talk). But I've gone to some christian sites and they block you from breathing a word of anti trinitarian doctrine.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Don't tell me that you've never heard an *** talk.