Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Because we are not worshiping Jesus. We are worshiping Jehovah just as Jesus did.
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Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
Because we are not worshiping Jesus. We are worshiping Jehovah just as Jesus did.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
agreed, without the influence of the devil, it will be so much easier for mankind to come to know Jehovah. There will be no rival religious groups or false religious ideas to keep people in the dark.
Anyone who refuses to submit to Jehovah at that time have only themselves to blame. But remember, that sin is the willful rejection of Jehovahs laws and standards. People can still willfully reject such things if they choose to. They still have free will and they will still need to learn about Jehovah and his requirements. They will still have knowledge of their previous life in this old system and they may still have wrong ideas and attitudes that they will need to adjust. So how they choose to respond after their resurrection, determines if they will be permitted to live in that new world or be cut off from all existence a second time.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
But Jesus said they would be His witnesses. If you witness for someone does that mean you are worshiping them?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Since Jesus himself is called "the faithful and true witness" (Rev 3:14) for whom was he a witness? If we are footstep followers of the Christ, we will be witnesses for the same one as he was....his God Jehovah. (Rev 3:12)
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Pegg, I want to say that I admire you and have the utmost respect for you! You are defending what you believe and you are doing it humbly.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
It is so difficult to communicate our thoughts in this format. I wish we could talk face to face. I think I would enjoy that very much. I do appreciate your patience. I am enjoying our discussions. You have helped me to understand the JW position much better than I did before.
I'm glad we can agree that sacrifices (the blood of bulls and goats) made by the worshipers of God in the OT could not take sin away. We have moved a step forward!
I completely agree with you that NOTHING can remove the fate of man, which is physical death, not even Jesus' shed His blood. We are all appointed once to die, then comes judgement (Hebrews 9:27). They say there are two things in life we can be sure of, death and taxes.
But you said above that "forgiveness by God does not remove sin." Do you mean forgiveness did not remove sin for worshipers in the OT, or do you mean for worshipers now? I want to be sure of what you are saying.
We agree that ALL are sinful (Romans 6:23).
You said, "Nowhere in the christian scriptures will you read that the christians were now perfect and sinless."
Again, we agree that no one is sinless, and all continue to sin.
But what does Hebrews 10:11 say?
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Is the author not saying "he has made perfect" forever those are being made holy?
You said it is the "anointed" that are holy. Are you saying the "anointed" were made perfect by Jesus' sacrifice, but no one else was?
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
JayJayDee, do you pioneer?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Are we?
Did you answer my question?What do you believe the kingdom of God is and how does it "come" so that God's will is done "on earth as it is in heaven"?
Since Jesus trained his apostles and taught them the truth from God's word, of course he taught his disciples what to preach. His original disciples were Jewish, so he was not going to tell them to spread the false teachings of the Pharisees, was he? The Jews had mistaken notions about the kingdom and the role of the Messiah, and the early disciples did too, but gradually Jesus revealed the truth. Progressive revelation has always been a feature of Christianity.
Since Jesus said he was going to appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to feed his household their "food at the proper time"......what we needed to know is given, when we needed to know it. (Matt 24:42-47) The identity of the "slave" was only revealed at the time when Jesus was due to return. We acknowledge that our governing body is that slave. You can believe whatever you like.
The appearance of Jehovah's 'cleansed and refined' worshippers just before the "time of the end" began was also prophesied by Daniel. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10) Interestingly, only those who responded to the 'cleansing and refining' were given insight....those who didn't, would not understand anything.
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JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
If you mean, do I spend many hours a month dedicated to the preaching work? The answer is yes. I witness as much as I can. I love to do so.
If you are asking whether I am in the full time service in any official capacity, then no. My circumstances as a full time carer do not permit me to engage much in the door to door work. But that doesn't mean that I cannot preach via other avenues. The Internet has opened up the opportunity to reach many more people than the ones we seek to find at home during the day.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
It's interesting you would say that. Because the slave you say Jesus appointed hasn't understood anything, have they? Have you read the July 15, 2013 Watchtower?
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Which section dj?
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
That is one thing I admire about JW's. You do have a passion for what you do and believe! When the gentleman I study with came to my home, I remember the questions he asked to get a conversation started. I have read JW's material and am familiar with what/how you are taught to preach. If I may ask, when you approach someone to minister to them, what do you say, personally, to get them to give you some time?
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Truth is revealed progressively (Prov 4:18) What we need to know is given when we need to know it. We do not run ahead of the slave as if we know better than they do. What does the July 15 2013 WT have to do with anything? I can't remember what any particular Watchtower said six months ago let alone years ago.
The way some people carry on, you would think that the WT was a substitute for scripture. We do not view it like that.
It is like a newsletter, updated every week. We benefit from its advice and counsel and always have.
The early disciples had some mistaken views and when it was time, God revealed what they needed to know.
We are not prophets and we have never claimed to be such. We are guided and directed by a body of humans who seek to do the will of God and are directed by Jesus Christ. The proof of that has already been established.
Jesus said he would back the global preaching work and he has done so. Who else is doing it? One united message of salvation cannot be delivered by the fractured churches of Christendom who do not even know the identity of the "only true God". (John 17:3) They have no clue what the kingdom is so therefore they cannot preach about it. Ask a dozen people from a dozen different churches what the kingdom of God is, and you will get a dozen different answers. Ask JW's in any nation what they believe and you will get the same answer.
Those who wish to find fault with the GB will continue to do so right up until they get the inevitable tap on the shoulder. (2 Thess 2:9-12)
The proof of discipleship is in the "fruits" they produce. Have you ever wondered why ex-JW's have never formed themselves into a global body of preachers who are out doing what Jesus commanded in this time of the end?
All they became was a global body of whiners and complainers....just like the Jews who never made it into the promised land because they complained about the "food"...complained about Moses' authority.....complained and reaped what they had sown.
We are admonished to obey those who have spiritual authority over us......so whom do you obey? Who is keeping watch over your soul? (Heb 13:7, 17)
Did you hear the man? Any one of the Bible characters who misunderstood what the message was, DIDN'T TEACH IT. Also they didn't say "God trusts me". Does God trust you JayJayDee?
How many classes of people do the Jehovah's Witnesses say there are?
Define discreet: careful and circumspect in one's speech or actions, especially in order to avoid causing offense or to gain an advantage.
Careful in speech so as not to gain an advantage.
Is saying "Jehovah trusts me" discreet?
Careful in speech so as not to gain an advantage.
Is saying "Jehovah trusts me" discreet?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
I personally find that what I need to say is given to me on the day. As long as I have done my personal study and can answer the many questions that people have, It is not my words that count....but the direction of God's spirit on the one responding. (John 6:44) God knows what they need to hear and it is he who "draws" them to his son. Sometimes I myself, am surprised by what I say. I am a very direct person who doesn't beat around the bush and this trait is not well accepted by those with emotional issues, but for those who like the "tell it like it is approach" I have been an effective teacher. I find it hard to walk on eggshells around people who are highly defensive. I leave those to others more skilled in that area.
Jesus said he would direct the work and Holy Spirit does the rest....all we need to do is physically show up, prepared to preach the kingdom message...Jesus will direct us to the right people. (Matt 10:11-15) If they reject the message, we "shake the dust off our feet" and move on to the next person.
We already know that "few" are going to respond for a multitude of reasons, but we keep offering them the opportunity to hear the kingdom promises for a better future...the one we all know we should have.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
I notice that JW's quote this verse a lot when they try to explain errors in teaching from the WT. Let's look at that verse in context.
Pro 4:10-13 (ESVST) 10 Hear, my son, and accept my words, that the years of your life may be many. 11 I have taught you the way of wisdom; I have led you in the paths of uprightness.
12 When you walk, your step will not be hampered, and if you run, you will not stumble.13 Keep hold of instruction; do not let go; guard her, for she is your life.
Verses 10-13: a father is wanting his son to listen to what he is telling him. If he listens to his father he will have a long life. His father has taught him wisdom about living uprightly. If he keeps living uprightly, his path will not be hampered. He tells him not to forget what he was taught.
Pro 4:14-17 (ESVST) 14 Do not enter the path of the wicked, and do not walk in the way of the evil.15 Avoid it; do not go on it; turn away from it and pass on.16 For they cannot sleep unless they have done wrong; they are robbed of sleep unless they have made someone stumble.17 For they eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.
Verses 14-17: His father tells him not to live like the lovers of the world, with their fleshly desires.
Pro 4:18 (ESVST) 18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day.
Verse 18: This verse means the way the righteous live. You can see the Spirit in them more and more.
Mat 5:16 (ESVST) 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
I don't think (my opinion), considering the other verses, that verse 18 is saying that truth will be revealed little by little.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
We have at times made mistakes in interpreting the fulfilment of prophesy, but most of these have been timing errors.
Even Jesus' apostles got the timing wrong as he was returning to heaven. (Acts 1:6) They actually still thought that the kingdom would be established right there and then in that period of time. They thought that his resurrection was going to see the kingdom rule begin in the first century....and this is after three and a half years as constant companions of God's own son.
Jesus said n John 16:12-13......“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." (ESV)
The spirit of truth was God's holy spirit and it has been guiding God's true servants all along...even though they were struggling to survive among the "weeds" planted by the devil for many centuries.
And as the "slave" was appointed to "feed" the entire household their "food at the proper time"....we continue to have what we need (not necessarily what we want) when we need to know it. Clarification is something we expect as the last days progress.
Is there a reason why you are dodging my questions?
It isn't the only line of reasoning we use. Prov 4:18 just explains it very clearly.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
So we both agree that the Apostles taught/preached what Jesus taught them to teach/preach, correct? And you claim Jesus told them to teach/preach the "Good News of the Kingdom", correct?
This is what I believe the "Good News" to be:
Acts 5:41-42 (ESVST) 41 Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. 42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus.
Acts 10:34-43 I won't take up space with these verses, you can read them in your Bible.
Act 11:19-21 (ESVST) 20 But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who on coming to Antioch spoke to the Hellenists also, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.
Romans 1:16-17 (ESVST) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith." (What is the power of God for salvation?)
Romans 15:19-21 (ESVST) — so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ; 20 and thus I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else's foundation, 21 but as it is written, " Those who have never been told of him will see, and those who have never heard will understand." (If the gospel is about the paradise earth or using God’s personal name, why would it matter who preached where?)
1Co 1:17 (ESVST) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
1Co 1:21-24 (ESVST) 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 32 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 2:1-2 (ESVST) 1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
1Co 15:3-5 (ESVST) 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
2Co 4:2-4 (ESVST) 3 and even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Eph 3:5-7 (ESVST) 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God 's grace, which was given me by the working of his power.
Philippians 1:15-18 (ESVST) 15 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.
Col 1:21-23 (ESVST) 21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
2Ti 1:8-12 (ESVST) 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12 which is why I suffer as I do.
2Ti 2:8-10 (ESVST) 8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
These verses are my take on what the "GOOD NEWS" of the Kingdom is, because it is what the disciple taught and preached.