Was the fall of Satan part of God's plan?

[Mohsen]

You're forgetting a couple of very important things.

John 3:16
...

I don't have time to rebut all your appeals but i will do one:

John 3:16 is a well known interpolation - meaning, fake verse. The first three Gospels – Matthew, Mark and Luke have a different Jesus and a different Salvation theology than the Gospel of John does. This logically indicates that the Salvation concept we have today, central to Christianity, evolved long after Jesus' time on earth. Not just this, but it is well known among Bible scholars - even the Roman Catholic Church, that John 3:16, is a clear as day interpolation, and this verse doesn't appear in some other revised versions of your New Testament Bible. The bible is written by men who knew how to BS!

It is now 2:35am, i'm off to bed.

Do your homework you're all over the place, jumping from here to there and everywhere, like a restless finch. We notice the desperation, have a little decorum and integrity, it will serve you well.

Peace

 

[Deidre]

I think it's hard to say when it comes to angels and spirits...remember, Satan started out as God's favorite angel (Lucifer meaning ''morning star'') ...and then he fell from grace when he landed on earth. So maybe things are different in a non-human world.

 

[Mohsen]

I think it's hard to say when it comes to angels and spirits...remember, Satan started out as God's favorite angel (Lucifer meaning ''morning star'') ...and then he fell from grace when he landed on earth. So maybe things are different in a non-human world.

Ittabi'al kalb, ittabi'annabii, rusoolAllah sallallahu alaihi wasallamu tasleema

 

[Spiderman]

I think it's hard to say when it comes to angels and spirits...remember, Satan started out as God's favorite angel (Lucifer meaning ''morning star'') ...and then he fell from grace when he landed on earth. So maybe things are different in a non-human world.

O Deidre, I just noticed you had Arabic under your name... That's beautiful! My middle eastern sister! I cherished you before, but now that I know your a descendant of Abraham, I cherish you more

 

[Polymath257]

Congratulations.

She is getting to the age when the congratulations should be directed to her.

A parent gets to launch a ship. But eventually someone else steers. My goal was to raise an intelligent caring, self-sufficient person who is able to make her own decisions and accept the consequences of mistakes. It seems I was successful in this (although I had a lot of help).

 

[Deidre]

O Deidre, I just noticed you had Arabic under your name... That's beautiful! My middle eastern sister! I cherished you before, but now that I know your a descendant of Abraham, I cherish you more

You are so sweet. It means....''follow your heart.''

You know, when I had explored Islam a few years ago, I wanted to really learn arabic, not just a few phrases, but then I dropped my interest in Islam in terms of converting. And I dropped learning arabic. Well, now that I've discovered that I'm part Iranian/Syrian, I'm going to take a class! That's on my list, and also cooking middle eastern cuisine this weekend.

I wonder if there are different accents, dialects, etc depending on the region of the middle east. Like in the US, people sound different in the south as opposed to the north.

 

[Deidre]

Ittabi'al kalb, ittabi'annabii, rusoolAllah sallallahu alaihi wasallamu tasleema

I can only decipher a portion of this, are you saying here that Allah created a miracle?

 

[DavidFirth]

I don't have time to rebut all your appeals but i will do one:

John 3:16 is a well known interpolation - meaning, fake verse. The first three Gospels – Matthew, Mark and Luke have a different Jesus and a different Salvation theology than the Gospel of John does. This logically indicates that the Salvation concept we have today, central to Christianity, evolved long after Jesus' time on earth. Not just this, but it is well known among Bible scholars - even the Roman Catholic Church, that John 3:16, is a clear as day interpolation, and this verse doesn't appear in some other revised versions of your New Testament Bible. The bible is written by men who knew how to BS!

It is now 2:35am, i'm off to bed.

Do your homework you're all over the place, jumping from here to there and everywhere, like a restless finch. We notice the desperation, have a little decorum and integrity, it will serve you well.

Peace

I am not interested in your opinion, posts or anything else concerning this discussion.

 

[Rival]

Then who's Lucifer? That's always been synonymous with the angels. When I was a Christian, Satan was considered as a Fallen Angel.

There is no such being. This word only appears in the Christian translations and the verse containing the word is actually referring to the king of Babylon who wanted to be a god-king and fell spectacularly.

 

[Mohsen]

I can only decipher a portion of this, are you saying here that Allah created a miracle?

Follow the heart, follow Muhammad the messenger of Allah - that is what is written!

 

[Mohsen]

I am not interested in your opinion, posts or anything else concerning this discussion.

you don't have to be, this forum has more than just you and me in it you know!!! Get over your self lol.

 

[Deidre]

Follow the heart, follow Muhammad the messenger of Allah - that is what is written!

Have you always been Muslim?

 

[Mohsen]

Have you always been Muslim?

Not always. I was an apostate for around ten years.

Peace

 

[Deidre]

Not always. I was an apostate for around ten years.

Peace

Interesting. And interesting you use that word, we don't say that typically here in the states when we leave a religion, or ''denounce'' a religion. Did you follow another faith or were you an atheist?

Sorry, not meaning to derail your thread, Pope.

 

[Deidre]

There is no such being. This word only appears in the Christian translations and the verse containing the word is actually referring to the king of Babylon who wanted to be a god-king and fell spectacularly.

That is one interpretation, but there are others that indicate Lucifer ''became'' Satan.

Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan?

 

[Mohsen]

Interesting. And interesting you use that word, we don't say that typically here in the states when we leave a religion, or ''denounce'' a religion. Did you follow another faith or were you an atheist?

Sorry, not meaning to derail your thread, Pope.

I became an atheist. I apostated early, I was only 14 when I apostated and i found my way back to Islam when I was 26 or 27. I didn't want to become a Muslim, because Islam was not the flavour of the month of you know what I mean. The media, western society, and the work place were all quite against Islam as a general rule (they still are). I studied all faiths and couldn't find any one which appealed to my inner yearning to know truth using rationality, reason, logic, and the innate disposition that God must exist to find the faith which made sense. After much study, I came close to Judaism but couldn't invest due to Judaism rejecting Jesus - who I found to be God sent but not God himself not the son of God - the theology of Christianity didn't appeal to my reasoning nor to logic so I studied Islam as a last attempt to find a way, and I found Islam to hold all the answers to my questions - I'm still studying Qur'an and learning the Classical Arabic as well. I can honestly say that the best decision I ever made was to come back to Islam - when I had left as a 14 year old, I had no idea what Islam truly was. Now I do. And I can't accept any other way for myself. I'm happy to live as a Muslim in this world, and I hope that God is pleased with my efforts in life. I'm not perfect, no one is except God. But I try to be the best I can be and work to better and enrich the experiences of others in this world as this is what reflects the light in my life. It's a learning curve and I love how to learn so I can learn how to love.

Sorry this is getting a little long lol

God bless

 

[Deidre]

I became an atheist. I apostated early, I was only 14 when I apostated and i found my way back to Islam when I was 26 or 27. I didn't want to become a Muslim, because Islam was not the flavour of the month of you know what I mean. The media, western society, and the work place were all quite against Islam as a general rule (they still are). I studied all faiths and couldn't find any one which appealed to my inner yearning to know truth using rationality, reason, logic, and the innate disposition that God must exist to find the faith which made sense. After much study, I came close to Judaism but couldn't invest due to Judaism rejecting Jesus - who I found to be God sent but not God himself not the son of God - the theology of Christianity didn't appeal to my reasoning nor to logic so I studied Islam as a last attempt to find a way, and I found Islam to hold all the answers to my questions - I'm still studying Qur'an and learning the Classical Arabic as well. I can honestly say that the best decision I ever made was to come back to Islam - when I had left as a 14 year old, I had no idea what Islam truly was. Now I do. And I can't accept any other way for myself. I'm happy to live as a Muslim in this world, and I hope that God is pleased with my efforts in life. I'm not perfect, no one is except God. But I try to be the best I can be and work to better and enrich the experiences of others in this world as this is what reflects the light in my life. It's a learning curve and I love how to learn so I can learn how to love.

Sorry this is getting a little long lol

God bless

Wow, that so interesting, Moshen. I explored Islam a few years ago after one of my grandmothers died. I was an atheist then, left Christianity, and was searching for answers. I found Islam to have much beauty, but could never wrap my mind around Sharia law. I couldn't wrap my mind also around the ideas of Jesus, coming from a Christian background. I recently found out this past week that my father is half middle eastern, he learned of this news after he got married to my mom ...his father was adopted, but his bio parents were Syrian and Iranian. So, I guess this makes me 1/3/ middle eastern? To your point about the middle east and Islam not being widely accepted in the states, this is true. I never thought it was true, but my dad shared with me this week that he never wanted anyone to know because it would affect his business and perhaps how people view him. He finally wanted me to know the truth of my background, and I'm grateful. I see it as a gift, he sees it as a burden, I guess. I do wish I had known as a child though, but he was also raised in the Italian heritage, his own father never telling him. I think he is concerned I will pursue Islam again. He is Catholic, and it bothered him when I explored it a few years ago. Many people can't separate Islam from radical Islam and the conflicts within the middle east. The US is home to many Muslims, but secular law rules here, so the US offers the opportunity for people to believe as they wish, in freedom. Unlike the middle east, my life would look much different if I lived there. Choice is good.

It's nice to read your story, because you are not Muslim from indoctrination, but from your own personal exploration.

 

[Ponder This]

I can't tell you how many times I've heard Christians tell me that the fall of Satan was never part of God's plan...

That simply doesn't make sense. It is biblical that God knows what happens in the future.

God knows before he makes an angel if it's going to rebel against him.

God knows before he makes an angel if it's going to be faithful to him.

He could just choose not to make the angels that will rebel and only make the angels that will be faithful to him.

The only other conclusion is that Satan's rebellion and fall was part of God's plan...View attachment 18981The puzzling question is why?

Aren't there multiple senses of the word "plan"? I can make a plan to evacuate the area that is about to be hit by a hurricane. This doesn't mean that I made a plan to make a hurricane hit the area.
I could also make a plan to build the Empire State Building. That doesn't mean that I intend for it to be the tallest building that will ever be constructed.
So I think you need to be a bit more clear about what you think it means to say that God planned something. Do you mean God intended an angel to rebel? Or that God had a plan for when the angel rebelled?

 

[Spiderman]

Aren't there multiple senses of the word "plan"? I can make a plan to evacuate the area that is about to be hit by a hurricane. This doesn't mean that I made a plan to make a hurricane hit the area.
I could also make a plan to build the Empire State Building. That doesn't mean that I intend for it to be the tallest building that will ever be constructed.
So I think you need to be a bit more clear about what you think it means to say that God planned something. Do you mean God intended an angel to rebel? Or that God had a plan for when the angel rebelled?

I meant God intended for the angel to rebel and had a plan for when it would happen...

Otherwise he could have just reasoned, I know this Angels going to rebel against me, and not made that angel , and instead only made the angels that would be faithful to him.

Don't you think whether or not the Angels rebelled had something to do with how God made those angels?

Otherwise, why would one Angel be inclined to Pride and rebellion and another Angel be inclined to just serve and obey?

Wouldn't it suggests that God made the Fallen Angels differently than the faithful angels?

 

[Mohsen]

According to Muslim beliefs, Satan was not an angel, but a jinn who had worshiped God so much that his status was raised and he was allowed to dwell among the angels. It was always in his nature to be rebellious! God had created him that way.

peace