Was Jesus "just a man" in your opinion

[Katzpur]

Is Jesus 'just a man' in your opinion, or was He as He walked among us part God?

This topic was raised in another thread, so I want to get various perspectives.

Christians only, or if you're not Christian, state as such to avoid confusion.

I'd say He was "not just a man," but "God." That doesn't mean I believe He was the same individual as "God the Father," because I don't. What I believe is that He was the Only Begotten Son of God (the Father) and as such inherited all that His Father has, including the right to be known as "God."

 

[Glaurung]

Is Jesus 'just a man' in your opinion, or was He as He walked among us part God?

Not just a man and neither part God. He was and is fully human and fully God.

 

[Windwalker]

I'm sure there must have been times when he felt just human and not aware of his God nature, but at all times he fully had both natures even if sometimes he wasn't aware of both.

Wow, actually that sounds a whole lot like our own path. I heard an interesting thing the other day where someone asked what is that moment of transformation to that higher realization. The answer was interesting. It was 51%. It's that tipping point, where that center of gravity shifts to our higher identity, that which is united with God. It's where the majority of our lived experience is within that Mind. I agree with you that Jesus being human as well 'shifted modes' as it were, operating within the emotional body, the human impulse and desire, the ego as well, and other times where he was deeply united with the divine nature as himself: "I and my Father are One"; "He that has seen me has seen the Father"; "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life".

I'm curious as to your thoughts to these things.

 

[kjw47]

Not just a man and neither part God. He was and is fully human and fully God.

Gods word teaches---Jesus was made lower than the angels---a mortal( but perfect)---an impossibility for him to be God as well.
Gods justice scales are uncorruptable--in perfect balance---- a perfect mortal lost a good standing with God---a perfect mortal bought it back by dying a sinless mortal existence---Not God-- it would not have been justice-deut 32:4---All of Gods ways are justice-------- so the teachers saying the mortal Jesus was fully God as well---do not know God or his son.

 

[Izdaari]

Wow, actually that sounds a whole lot like our own path. I heard an interesting thing the other day where someone asked what is that moment of transformation to that higher realization. The answer was interesting. It was 51%. It's that tipping point, where that center of gravity shifts to our higher identity, that which is united with God. It's where the majority of our lived experience is within that Mind. I agree with you that Jesus being human as well 'shifted modes' as it were, operating within the emotional body, the human impulse and desire, the ego as well, and other times where he was deeply united with the divine nature as himself: "I and my Father are One"; "He that has seen me has seen the Father"; "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life".

I'm curious as to your thoughts to these things.

We are both panentheist, but I am panentheist of the EO school (not a member of that faith tradition, but I think it's one of several things they have more right than the other main Christian traditions).

So when I say Jesus was both God and man, and wasn't always fully aware of both, I don't mean he forgot his divine nature as you and I usually do, but had moments of divine awareness or god-consciousness more often than we do. I mean his God side was a member of the Trinity, which you and I are not.

 

[Windwalker]

We are both panentheist, but I am panentheist of the EO school (not a member of that faith tradition, but I think it's one of several things they have more right than the other main Christian traditions).

I identify with panentheism because it reflects my personal experience of God. My religion in my profile I list as Integral Panentheist because the character number restriction wouldn't allow Evolutionary Panentheist, which more accurately reflects my views.

So when I say Jesus was both God and man, and wasn't always fully aware of both, I don't mean he forgot his divine nature as you and I usually do, but had moments of divine awareness or god-consciousness more often than we do. I mean his God side was a member of the Trinity, which you and I are not.

I don't know. I believe we are all capable of having that "Mind which was in Christ Jesus" in us at all time as well. It's a matter of development. I believe it is actually our pull to be just that; to be Christ in the world - literally, as Jesus. I say this not because of some idea I have, but because of personal experience that those moments of Christ Consciousness, are not consigned to random experiences, but are a matter of will, intention, and a commitment to growth in disciplined practices towards God.

One of the things about the Trinity, is that historically I believe at its very heart it is a panenthesitic formulation of divinity. It is, dynamistic. But it was made static, theistic, and Christ got "kicked upstairs", removed from us down here. I do not believe that is the true image of what the Trinity formulation conveys. Christ is the "expression" of God, in all things. And we are that - if we realize it and live it in ourselves.

Are you familiar with the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart? I think this quote from him may help you understand better what I'm saying. I had read this after my own realization of this, soon before coming across this in his writings from the 14th century:

The hearing of God’s Word requires complete self-surrender. He who hears and that which is heard are identical constituents of the eternal Word. What the eternal Father teaches is his own Being, Nature, and Godhead – which he is always revealing through his only begotten Son. He teaches that we are to be identical with him.

To deny one’s self is to be the only begotten Son of God and one who does so has for himself all the properties of that Son. All God’s acts are performed and his teachings conveyed through the Son, to the point that we should be his only begotten Son. And when this is accomplished in God’s sight, he is so fond of us and so fervent that he acts as if his divine Being might be shattered and he himself annihilated if the whole foundations of his Godhead were not revealed to us, together with his nature and being. God makes haste to do this, so that it may be ours as it is his. It is here that God finds joy and rapture in fulfillment and the person who is thus within God’s knowing and love becomes just what God himself is.
​

So as you see, the "2nd person of the Trinity", in reality, is us, as well as Jesus. "I pray Father that they all may be one as we are one". We are the 'only' begotten Son of God. To be the Light of the World, is in fact exactly what Jesus wished us to be - as he was.

 

[Izdaari]

Are you familiar with the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart? I think this quote from him may help you understand better what I'm saying. I had read this after my own realization of this, soon before coming across this in his writings from the 14th century:

The hearing of God’s Word requires complete self-surrender. He who hears and that which is heard are identical constituents of the eternal Word. What the eternal Father teaches is his own Being, Nature, and Godhead – which he is always revealing through his only begotten Son. He teaches that we are to be identical with him.

To deny one’s self is to be the only begotten Son of God and one who does so has for himself all the properties of that Son. All God’s acts are performed and his teachings conveyed through the Son, to the point that we should be his only begotten Son. And when this is accomplished in God’s sight, he is so fond of us and so fervent that he acts as if his divine Being might be shattered and he himself annihilated if the whole foundations of his Godhead were not revealed to us, together with his nature and being. God makes haste to do this, so that it may be ours as it is his. It is here that God finds joy and rapture in fulfillment and the person who is thus within God’s knowing and love becomes just what God himself is.
​

So as you see, the "2nd person of the Trinity", in reality, is us, as well as Jesus. "I pray Father that they all may be one as we are one". We are the 'only' begotten Son of God. To be the Light of the World, is in fact exactly what Jesus wished us to be - as he was.

Though I knew the name Meister Eckhardt, I had not read anything by him before that quote. It's an interesting thought, but I don't buy it. I try (and usually fail) to be more like Jesus, but he was/is a historical person who lived, died and was physically resurrected (so the evidence convinces me), and I am not him. I think we all do have a tiny spark of the divine in us, but that's not the same as being one with the creator and sustainer of the universe.

 

[Windwalker]

Though I knew the name Meister Eckhardt, I had not read anything by him before that quote. It's an interesting thought, but I don't buy it.

I'll share from my experience that it really isn't a thought, or an idea, but rather it is a realization. It's something that becomes apparent as that Unity between yourself and the Divine occurs. It's a real experience, not an idea deduced by thinking about things you read. That state of Unity is something that opens understanding in ways beyond reasonings and speculations, into the very essence of being itself. And that essence is Light, Truth, Knowledge, Love, Compassion, Grace, and so forth. All that Eckhart was saying, and I concur with his words, is an expression of what is realized in that state of conscious awareness. The words are not theological in nature, but rather metaphorically expressive of a real experience of Reality.

I try (and usually fail) to be more like Jesus, but he was/is a historical person who lived, died and was physically resurrected (so the evidence convinces me), and I am not him.

We yes, I am not him either in the historical sense or his human identity. But that same nature he realized in himself, is the same nature in you and me and everyone else. "Christ in you," the scripture explicitly states. There was to Jesus that dual nature of humanity and divinity. The same as us. "He that has seen me has seen the Father". It is incarnational.

As far as trying and failing... well yes. I'll share something that should help as you truly seek for that unity, to be like Christ. The trying and failing is what happens when we seek with our eye upon ourselves. When we seek because we are looking for something to fill a need in our lives, to make us happier, to take away this or that pain, because we feel weak and are seeking relief, etc, we are never truly doing what we need to which is to move beyond all those self-desiring needs.

It is in abandonment to God, to the Divine that we find what fulfills us. It is not in what we think we need that we begin our searching, but in the end of searching and in simply allowing. I'll put it this way, you should not seek to be like Jesus. You should simply open up and allow Christ. The seeking that we should do it to seek to not seek, to quit looking and start allowing. Our work, our struggle is to simply get out of the way and allow. Then it comes, and then you'll get what I mean in all of this.

I think we all do have a tiny spark of the divine in us, but that's not the same as being one with the creator and sustainer of the universe.

The one thing you find, that everyone who realizes this in themselves finds, is that it was always fully there the whole time. It only appears as a "spark" because that is all at the present we allow our minds to see, for fear it will overcome us. This is where the true meaning of faith comes in. It is to allow God in us, without fear. But you are right, there is a spark there you see, but that spark is the whole Universe in you.

 

[Izdaari]

Windwalker,

I love all you said in that last post. :clap

Still, I believe Jesus was/is God in a literal, theological sense. But Christian mystics since the beginning have practiced it as you say while believing as I do, so I don't guess they're incompatible.

 

[Windwalker]

Windwalker,

I love all you said in that last post. :clap

Still, I believe Jesus was/is God in a literal, theological sense. But Christian mystics since the beginning have practiced it as you say while believing as I do, so I don't guess they're incompatible.

No, they're not incompatible. I see value in the approach you describe. But there does come a point that holding too tightly to these images of God held in the mind, it can block knowledge of God which exists beyond our models of Him. You follow? Again to quote Meister Eckhart, "I pray God make me free of God that I may know God in his unconditional being". That's a very telling expression, and one I relate to. There comes a point that "God" is the ceiling of our own mind's understanding, and we need to let go of even the idea of God to enter into "God beyond God", into Godhead. At which point, truly, we "Know even as we are known", to quote Paul.

To be a little academic here for the sake of helping to put things in context, there are four basic stages of mystical awareness. The first is nature mysticism, where one sees God in all manifest reality, in the sun, the moon and the stars, etc. The second is deity mysticism where one has direct communion with Spirit in the form of God. It is an I-Thou relationship. The third stage is Casual mysticism. This is merger of our awareness, our identity with the Absolute, with Godhead as it were. This is the "I AM" state of awareness. "Before Abraham was, I AM".

The fourth is the Nondual, which is that merger of the Absolute and the relative, of the Formless and Form, of God and Creation. You are both man and God, the Single One. This to me is Incarnational awareness. And to stress again, all of these are descriptions of actual states of awareness, states of being. They are not speculative metaphysics, but descriptive experience. It's something I myself am aware of. It's simply a matter of growth into these, exactly as Paul says, "And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."

Peace.

 

[Badran]

***Mod post***

Thread moved to General Religious Debates.​

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Jesus "just a man" in your opinion?

Jesus being god or son of god hinges on the creed invented by Paul that:


1. Jesus died a cursed death on Cross
2. Jesus was cursed
3. Jesus got resurrected from the dead
4. Jesus ascended to heaven.


Since Jesus did not die on the Cross; and none of the other mentioned above happened; so Jesus was a human prophet; nothing more than that.

Further; it is idolatrous to make Jesus a god .

Regards

 

[John Martin]

Is Jesus 'just a man' in your opinion, or was He as He walked among us part God?

This topic was raised in another thread, so I want to get various perspectives.

Christians only, or if you're not Christian, state as such to avoid confusion.

Jesus Christ has two aspects: at one level he is fully human and at another level is he is one with the divine. So he is fully human and fully divine. His humanity was at the service of his divinity. To use an analogy he is both Arjuna and Krishna,two in one.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus Christ has two aspects: at one level he is fully human and at another level is he is one with the divine. So he is fully human and fully divine. His humanity was at the service of his divinity. To use an analogy he is both Arjuna and Krishna,two in one.

Maybe you should figure out what divinity was in the first century before making blind statements.


The living Emperor was divine, and the "son of god" before jesus was even born.


It was quite norma for important people to be considered divine. You know fully human.

 

[outhouse]

Was Jesus "just a man" in your opinion?

Jesus being god or son of god hinges on the creed invented by Paul that:


1. Jesus died a cursed death on Cross
2. Jesus was cursed
3. Jesus got resurrected from the dead
4. Jesus ascended to heaven.


Since Jesus did not die on the Cross; and none of the other mentioned above happened; so Jesus was a human prophet; nothing more than that.

Further; it is idolatrous to make Jesus a god .

Regards

Quit making ignorant statements on topics you know nothing about.

You stated not a word that was correct.


Start supplying sources to back your ridiculous words

 

[John Martin]

Maybe you should figure out what divinity was in the first century before making blind statements.


The living Emperor was divine, and the "son of god" before jesus was even born.


It was quite norma for important people to be considered divine. You know fully human.

This does not apply to Jesus. An Emperor will never wash the feet of his subordinates. The divinity of Jesus was different. The divinity of Jesus was the personification of humility. He washed the feet of his disciples. He was at their service to help them to realize the truth he has realized. So you cannot compare Jesus' divinity with the divinity of the emperor,who expected everyone to worship him.It is also unfortunate that later Christians put Christ on the seat of emperor, which is contrary to the spiritual vision of Christ.

 

[outhouse]

This does not apply to Jesus. An Emperor will never wash the feet of his subordinates.
.

We do not know if that ever happened.

Or is just a perversion of the baptism rituals.

We know it was common to anoint feet, by some cults.

The divinity of Jesus was different.

How would you know?

By what later people who never knew him wrote?

So you cannot compare Jesus' divinity with the divinity of the emperor,who expected everyone to worship him.

Yes we can compare. The gospel authors did who decribed said divinity. .

 

[George-ananda]

Is Jesus 'just a man' in your opinion, or was He as He walked among us part God?

This topic was raised in another thread, so I want to get various perspectives.

Christians only, or if you're not Christian, state as such to avoid confusion.

I'm more or less Hindu.

Jesus was a man and we are all part God. Jesus was just closer to His God part than most all men.

 

[paarsurrey]

Quit making ignorant statements on topics you know nothing about.

You stated not a word that was correct.


Start supplying sources to back your ridiculous words

I don't agree with you.

Do you believe that Jesus was a god? I don't think being agnostic you would be believing that.

As a real person or a historic person Jesus was son of Mary and Mary was only a human being; you could give birth to a human being.

She had other sons also; nobody believes that they were gods or son of gods.

Regards

 

[firedragon]

I don't agree with you.

Do you believe that Jesus was a god? I don't think being agnostic you would be believing that.

As a real person or a historic person Jesus was son of Mary and Mary was only a human being; you could give birth to a human being.

She had other sons also; nobody believes that they were gods or son of gods.

Regards

I dont believe that any human can be God either.

But you cant equate Jesus to Marys other sons. Maybe Gods other sons but not Marys because Jesus was conceived with no father. It was divine intervention.