I agree you should be gravely concerned about who you are accountable to.
How do you think God is going to react to people who turn His Word into non-sense and make a mockery of His Truth?
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Was it fair to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden?
- Thread starter poseur
- Start date
How do you think God is going to react to people who turn His Word into non-sense and make a mockery of His Truth?
God is mostly about faith and believe which requires no evidence Heb.11v1 .
Since mankind is not generally in knowledge of truth (Rev.12v9) I think we can expect 'correction' before judgement from a merciful God.
You jumped ahead a bit here. Please reread what I wrote. You seem to be presuming that mainstream religion has not gone astray. I'm asking you to consider the possibility that it has and to contemplate the consequences.
And when God sends fresh new messengers to provide such 'correction' and those who have gone astray beat them and persecute them and murder them, what do you think shall happen as a consequence of that?Since mankind is not generally in knowledge of truth (Rev.12v9) I think we can expect 'correction' before judgement from a merciful God.
I believe I did say that mainstream religion has gone astray when I said they were not in the truth but deceived Rev.12v9. There is no 'possibility' of this since scripture says 'the whole world is deceived' so we can consider it a fact.
Now, when someone is deceived they don't actually know they are deceived (or they would be aware that they are wrong) and consequently base their decisions and actions on what they know (which happens to be a false premise in the case of deception.) So when these deceived people persecute and murder God's messengers they do so in a false spirit who use ignorant people to do evil.
It is not God's way to condemn ignorant people to death (Acts 17v30) but to first correct them and lead them to repentance, If they continue to do evil then God will deal with them.
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Thank you for clarifying your remarks.
However, we are still right back to people continuing to do evil and remaining in a posture to immediately persecute any messengers that are sent to provide correction.
In fact, in Romans chapter 1 Paul talks about when God the Father had an advent in the flesh among men and the people knew Him (the man in the flesh who was His advent) but they did not perceive who He was and they considered the correction and teachings He brought them as unrighteousness and foolishness. Paul says that these people were given over to great wrath in consequence of their own blindness and arrogance. I see exactly the same pattern repeating today.
In Luke chapter 12 Jesus taught that there would be two future advents of Christ and that if people were not extremely careful to watch closely they might mistake Him for a fraud or a quack. He warned if they beat Him and His servants instead of receiving Them that they would be beaten with many stripes. From my point of view Christians were given an opportunity to accept the Father and His Kingdom but instead they beat Him and His servants and rejected the Kingdom. Thus, they are on the Romans chapter 1 trajectory.
Have a nice day!
Now it is me who is having difficulty understanding you.
You seem to be saying that God and Jesus are continually seeking to correct people either personally or through messengers ?
The way I see it we have only the Word of God (scripture) to correct us given us by God , Jesus, Prophets and Apostles Eph.2v20 but not persons per se since the Apostles. It is however so that very very few people since have been given the HS of God to help them convert but they are not meant to be messengers of God for the purpose of teaching/converting others. And just by living godly lives themselves they would be persecuted , ridiculed and tormented by unbelievers and sceptics.
Because mankind would grow worse and worse in unbelief it would take CHRIST HIMSELF to return a second time to correct all nations Rev.19. No man or messenger could deal with wayward mankind at the end of time.
Also we should remember that God allowed mankind 6 days in which to do their own thing so he will hardly punish them in the meantime for their wrongdoing - though they would bear and suffer the consequences of it during their lifetime.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
Why Ben? Is the Patriarch not Jacob who ate lentils not meat? Did God not instruct men to eat the fruits and abstain from the Tree of Life? Of course he did. Any spiritual person will tell you that to maintain spirituality you must abstain from eating flesh. The Ancient Egyptian priests abstained. That is where Mosers learned to speak and read. If you believe that the word of God is written in Genesis, the Talmud? this is what it actually says. I pick on bacon because it is proscribed by both major Middle eastern religions, is hard to give up and can be very tempting. It does not seem like a poor little animal does it? It is not bleeding, it is salty, cured in sea water to preserve it. In Halal or Kosher it is the custom to take the blood out of the meat when it is killed. Do you know why? Because there is a prohibition from God on consuming the blood of living things. He thought he had it covered by that but now they all take the blood out. Cain was also a vegetarian. Protected by God please note and with an identifiable mark. He sacrificed Abel, and Jacob stole his meat eating brother's blessing and birthright by cooking a meat stew for his father to make him think he was Esau. It does not mean you cannot be shrewd. Jacob was the one who fought the angel and won, in his dream. He is the spiritual one of the twins. Yes please take me seriously. Brahmins and Vishnu have much to tell us, as does archaeology.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
I still do not understand the point in this post of yours. We do have our own rules of Kashrut and see no need to observe the discoveries of Brahmins and Vishnu. Our Bible is sufficient for application in our daily lives.
Thank you for acknowledging that.
I'm saying Jesus said there would be future advents of Christ we would need to be carefully looking for so that when in the Father's wisdom it was time to establish His Kingdom to unite all the tribes of Israel into one unified Kingdom governed exclusively by God's Law entirely free of the tyranny of man's rule that we would not not oppose the Father and disqualify ourselves from being a worthy participant in His Work. Implicit in this is both a personal and servant based ministry to carry out this great work in the last days to restore and redeem Israel as a people under their King.
Yes, I'm very familiar with this dogma. However, it does not jive with what Jesus Himself said. He prophesied that there would be a future advent when God would bring forth additional "meat". As I understand it, this implies there would be additional scripture to come forth well after the ministry of the apostles that would pertain to the time when the Father deemed it was time to establish the Kingdom.
I'll tell you why they were persecuted. Are you aware that the disciples went unto what Jesus called the "lost sheep of Israel"? Are you aware of what God's will was for these people to undergo during their dispersion among the Gentiles? Read Ezekiel 4. The people of the northern kingdom were driven out of their land of inheritance and scattered abroad among the Gentiles. Their "bread" (scriptures) were to be defiled by dung that cometh out of man and they were to be banded down and put under difficult circumstances and be punished for their iniquity. This is the underlying landscape that God established that history clearly shows evidence of. Most of the translations of the Bible these days are dung. Just the fact that the people of Israel can no longer read holy writ in its original native language is a layer of dung on its own. Also, Christians never gained any liberty but were constantly oppressed. Not until Christianity was hijacked and perveted into a corrupted means to have power did it have any semblence of obtaining power. But, it was the means of crushing and destroying true Christianity that pretty much became non-existent.
Huh?
Rev 19
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Looks to me like He has plenty of helpers, not just cheerleaders.
I agree on their own that would be so. However, Christ shall have many men who assist Him. For example, what about the 144 thousand who preach to the nations?
I beg your pardon... That is hardly the case. Did Moses tell the people of Israel that they were still on the "do your own thing" program?
You seem to be approaching things of a religious nature as if God does not function through practical means. I suspect the gaps are too wide for us to enjoy one another's perspectives.
Have a nice day!
Sure God functions in a practical way but not in the world which at present still has it's own god 2cor.4v4. When he is deposed Rev.20v2,3 at the coming of Christ THEN God will begin to correct and rule this world. At present God is busy preparing His servants the 144.000 for rulership with him.
I agree with you that further discussion is futile since we are indeed too far apart.
Gday,
Hang on!
They were NOT ejected as punishment.
It's amazing how so many people get this wrong!
It says right there in the bible that they were expelled so they would not eat of the OTHER tree and become like Gods :
Not as punishment.
Iasion
Hang on!
They were NOT ejected as punishment.
It's amazing how so many people get this wrong!
It says right there in the bible that they were expelled so they would not eat of the OTHER tree and become like Gods :
Genesis 3:22 said:
Not as punishment.
Iasion
Gday,
Good work Ben
11 pages of posts before I found anyone who actually knew what the bible said.
Numerous posts from believers, even quoting the Bible, but none of them seemed to have read the accounts under discussion.
Iasion
Good work Ben
11 pages of posts before I found anyone who actually knew what the bible said.
Numerous posts from believers, even quoting the Bible, but none of them seemed to have read the accounts under discussion.
Iasion
Gday,
Well done.
Another person who actually knows what the bible says about the reason for their explusion.
Amazing -
on a religious education forum - numerous believers discussing and even quoting the bible - without actually knowing what is says !
(But not criticising sceptics like outhouse et al who have been questioning various points. Just amazed at the bible quoting believers who don't even know their own book
Iasion
Well done.
Another person who actually knows what the bible says about the reason for their explusion.
Amazing -
on a religious education forum - numerous believers discussing and even quoting the bible - without actually knowing what is says !
(But not criticising sceptics like outhouse et al who have been questioning various points. Just amazed at the bible quoting believers who don't even know their own book
Iasion
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EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
No, I am saying there is an alternative Path other than being under the rule of another's paradigm, such as the Abrahamic god-thought. It is Self-Deification, the Path of the Left Hand.
And 'THAT' is what the theme in the Garden of Eden was about . . . the ability to Become a god and to be immortal in spirit/Ka. Something that no megalomaniac wishes to happen to His flock of Sheeple.
"God's permission" . . . give me a break!
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
You're forgetting one thing . . . that book is a tome of fiction.
esmith
Veteran Member
Let me ask you a question about this "myth/legend". When you read the passage you see that there are two unique trees. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil the tree of life would bring eternal life. Now God commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil but did not say anything about the tree of life. This myth was for Jewish listeners/readers and basically showed that man can not obey the simplest command of God. The readers knew that eternal life was not possible so no mention of the possibility of eating from this tree was necessary. One other point needs to be made here. Post-biblical interpretation of the story which is a Christian one, not Jewish, interprets the snake to be Satan. Satan is a very late developing concept in Jewish theology and continued into Christian theology. Genesis was written well before this concept was brought forth.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Ok...you're broken.
It is written.....'ye are gods'...
Will you actually become one?
Only if the Almighty allows it.
Superlatives are forever.
gnostic
The Lost One
iasion said:Well done.
Another person who actually knows what the bible says about the reason for their explusion.
Amazing -
on a religious education forum - numerous believers discussing and even quoting the bible - without actually knowing what is says !
(But not criticising sceptics like outhouse et al who have been questioning various points. Just amazed at the bible quoting believers who don't even know their own book
Sure, that's the main reason for the expulsion, but it is not the only reason.
If Eden is the land of plenty where you don't need to grow your own food, then if they were to stay in Eden, then God's decree that Adam (and his descendants) were to toil for his food, (God's decree) would be rendered meaningless.
Genesis 3:17-19 said:
So that's the 2nd reason for the expulsion was that Adam must work for his food to the day he die. Adam will have to leave Eden if he had to fulfill God's curse (Genesis 3:17-19).
There is a 3rd reason, too. Usually, I see Genesis 1 and Genesis 2-3 to be 2 different and distinctive creation myths. But if I were to assume that they were one myth, or 2 myths connected to each other, then it is possible for a 3rd reason why they had to leave Eden.
Adam and Eve can't fulfil God's other decree in Genesis 1:, which is to be "fruitful" and populate the earth, and to rule the animal kingdom.
Genesis 1:26 said:
Genesis 1:28 said:
Again, like the 2nd reason, the 3rd reason will require human to move about the earth, instead of remaining confined in Paradise.
Sure, God's motive for ejecting them out of Eden was to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life and living forever, but it is not the sole reason.
Hi lasion I think you are right. I want to quote something in the original (the oldest bilbilical texts are around 300BC edescribing 4000BC for the Garden tale). The author of days one to six, the priestly author as he is called uses the word 'bara'for the divine action of making man. The author of the 'Adam & Eve' part of Genesis is called the 'Yahwist' author and he uses the word 'yasar', a word used for pottery normally. Egypt at this time had a Creator God who formed man on a potter's wheel I note. Jericho had a small town as early as 6800BC as can be determined from the many layers and carbon dating. Many successive waves of immigrants camne down from ther North at this time bringing their own distinctive pottery and customs. They also cleared the land leading to massive erosion before 3000BC. Bearing in mind that the biblical Adam lived a long time and probably lived in the Middle East where his descendants settled one might wonder whether the tale of Adam & Eve is related to the later Genesis Chapter 6 v2 quote: That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose 3. and the Lord said My Spirit shall not always strive with man for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be a hundered and twenty years. 4. there were giants in the earth in thoses days; and also after that when the sons of God came in unto yhe daughters of men, and they bare them children to them, the same became mightyt men which were of old, men of renown. 5.And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth.....
This is written by the same yahwist author who also writes about the serpent tempting Eve. Actually the 'dracon' which is a bit different and relates to 'evil beings opposed to God, with whom man has established relations (Peakes Commentary Thomas Nelson & Sons London 1962). These peakes relates to the nephilim who appear in my quote above and also in the Book of Enoch, which is also in its earliest written form around 300BC, describing tghe days before the deluge and the landing of these 200 rebellious angelic beings on Moungt Hermon with nol means of return. The expelled Adam race? Anyway they bred fast but did not displace the local inhabitants, just enslaved them as archaeology shows. By the way 'Eve' is named ishshah because she is taken out of Ish the name of humanity which Adam gives himself buty he gives her a second name Hawwah (Eve) after the Fall, meaning hope. I also note 'To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the paradise of God' Rev3:14)
this suggests Adam and eve were not on the planet for a start. I have heard it suggested they came form behind the sun's disc. Fire is why they cannot return. Others speculate they come from an underworld below our lava mantle. But they all agree they end up here unable to get back. They did not overcome the dracon. But Job did a very good job later. You are tempted by this dracon to the very limit of your endurance to see if you remain faithful, that is the story of Job. Revelations says the dracon gives power to the Beast. It must be overcome. Dont eat its bribes. We cannot imagine how tempting this 'apple' must have been. But in the ancient tale of Troy Eris uses a golden apple to get Paris to declare which of the Goddesses was the most beautiful. There must be something about this apple and serpent. Jesus says 'be as wise as serpents' . Peake mentions the jealousy of the Gods and bribing man with knowledge that a jealous Creator God witheld from them (to stay innocent). Enoch says the angels arriving on Hermon brought the knowledge of metal working, spells, enchantments, herbs, weapons, art with them. Strones and precious metals. They usesd this knowledge of mascara etc to entice these women. They look to be the serpent. Eve loses her innocence. Adam is also tempted and won over. You will note he was alive at the time of Jared when Enoch says the angels descended (around 3400BC just pre-Flood). The Lord of Spirits expects the angels to serve his son of man. But first the man must overcome the angels or at least win them over. Jacob and Job (anag?) seem to draw their battles with their angels. Jesus wins we are told. But it does seem as though the beast is still active. Make a friend of a dracon and we can all breathe easy again.
Of course God only wants the real Son of Man (Binadham) to eat the immortal plant which is written about at some length in Enoch. This man was named before Creation. Adam is the prototype. Maybe he planted these Adams all over the universe to see if one overcomes evil, tyhe Darkness which threatens to discredit Creation itself. IE Is it all worthwhile? Or evil beyond 'hope'. It is not a punishment to till the ground from which you are sprung. The nagging wife is the punishment.
This is written by the same yahwist author who also writes about the serpent tempting Eve. Actually the 'dracon' which is a bit different and relates to 'evil beings opposed to God, with whom man has established relations (Peakes Commentary Thomas Nelson & Sons London 1962). These peakes relates to the nephilim who appear in my quote above and also in the Book of Enoch, which is also in its earliest written form around 300BC, describing tghe days before the deluge and the landing of these 200 rebellious angelic beings on Moungt Hermon with nol means of return. The expelled Adam race? Anyway they bred fast but did not displace the local inhabitants, just enslaved them as archaeology shows. By the way 'Eve' is named ishshah because she is taken out of Ish the name of humanity which Adam gives himself buty he gives her a second name Hawwah (Eve) after the Fall, meaning hope. I also note 'To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the paradise of God' Rev3:14)
this suggests Adam and eve were not on the planet for a start. I have heard it suggested they came form behind the sun's disc. Fire is why they cannot return. Others speculate they come from an underworld below our lava mantle. But they all agree they end up here unable to get back. They did not overcome the dracon. But Job did a very good job later. You are tempted by this dracon to the very limit of your endurance to see if you remain faithful, that is the story of Job. Revelations says the dracon gives power to the Beast. It must be overcome. Dont eat its bribes. We cannot imagine how tempting this 'apple' must have been. But in the ancient tale of Troy Eris uses a golden apple to get Paris to declare which of the Goddesses was the most beautiful. There must be something about this apple and serpent. Jesus says 'be as wise as serpents' . Peake mentions the jealousy of the Gods and bribing man with knowledge that a jealous Creator God witheld from them (to stay innocent). Enoch says the angels arriving on Hermon brought the knowledge of metal working, spells, enchantments, herbs, weapons, art with them. Strones and precious metals. They usesd this knowledge of mascara etc to entice these women. They look to be the serpent. Eve loses her innocence. Adam is also tempted and won over. You will note he was alive at the time of Jared when Enoch says the angels descended (around 3400BC just pre-Flood). The Lord of Spirits expects the angels to serve his son of man. But first the man must overcome the angels or at least win them over. Jacob and Job (anag?) seem to draw their battles with their angels. Jesus wins we are told. But it does seem as though the beast is still active. Make a friend of a dracon and we can all breathe easy again.
Of course God only wants the real Son of Man (Binadham) to eat the immortal plant which is written about at some length in Enoch. This man was named before Creation. Adam is the prototype. Maybe he planted these Adams all over the universe to see if one overcomes evil, tyhe Darkness which threatens to discredit Creation itself. IE Is it all worthwhile? Or evil beyond 'hope'. It is not a punishment to till the ground from which you are sprung. The nagging wife is the punishment.