Views of witchcraft

[Draka]

I said 'if indeed that is what he's saying' in order to show that I was interpreting what he said. Maybe you missed that.

I didn't miss that at all, it's why I asked you to explain your words.

I say empty space in their heads for a good reason. That reason is why people drink after ending bad relationships or people get obsessed for a while about cars or movies. It's because everyone has a void to fill to varying extents. At one time it may have been filled with a relationship to which you devoted your time, then you move to drinking when that crashes. You may spend a small fortune on cars or film memorabilia. What I'm saying is drinking and wasting money, like practicing witchcraft, is not clever. It doesn't make you dumb, just not clever. In my opinion.

So according to you, someone who practices witchcraft, within or outside of a belief system, is filling a void of some kind? Likened to drinking? I hardly see so. Most witches I know of, including myself, are actually quite content and happy in our lives. I have no void to fill. And I'll have you know, I am quite clever.

Time to back up the nonsense. Humans are pattern seeking animals, this is well noted. We try to see order out of chaos, i.e. filling the void with something we can relate to. We see this when people call others 'lucky.' A series of positive events are seen as being related by their positive nature and, as such, that person is labelled lucky. In actuality the events are just random individual events that have no linking factor. This isn't just a throwaway remark. People bet thousands of dollars at a time in casinos based on winning streaks and people genuinely have lucky items, be it clothing or otherwise.

You can then see how primitive religions are formed. Why did I survive the hurricane and plague? Why does the sun rise every day? I'll unify them all by saying God did it and pray yo God so it keeps happening. Witchcraft is similar to this (at least in my opinion) It has no effect yet people who say they feel its effects repeat whatever they did. The placebo effect takes hold. It's the positive attitude that helps, nothing more. But this is attributed to the action. So you keep performing that action. It becomes habitual, much like religious ritual. No longer is it the effect that is sought after, it is the ritual that becomes paramount. Tadaa! Witchcraft is born. Rituals for rituals sake, or for that lovely placebo feeling.

Have your eye of newt if you want, I'll stick to testable science.

Having been an electrician for torpedo-loaded anti-sub helos for many years, I'll have you know I stick to science and understand it extremely well. Better than you probably do I'd wager. So don't try to infer that I don't adhere to science. I'm not an idiot. However, the rest of your drivel here only shows what you don't understand. You want to lump everything together under "placebo effect" when, while that may be the case for some, it is simply not for others. You say that it has no effect upon others, yet you cannot possibly know that for certain. You don't believe it has an effect and so are therefore disregarding all of it without really knowing anything for sure. You feel you know better and don't need to know any more than you do. Which is regrettable.

All in all though, your statements about being fools, incredibly credulous, and the like were insulting. They were NOT criticism of a practice, they were insults upon the practitioners, and just rude.

 

[Draka]

Oops, I didn't know you wanted a 10 second reply. I thought I'd give due care and attention to your comment. Hence the brief interlude before my responses to the two separate comments.

Right after you posted to Cassiopia the site showed you were offline entirely. It appeared you showed up only to answer hers and ducked back out.

 

[muffin8or]

Right after you posted to Cassiopia the site showed you were offline entirely. It appeared you showed up only to answer hers and ducked back out.

I take the quotes from people into word because I find it easier to work in word

I didn't miss that at all, it's why I asked you to explain your words.
So according to you, someone who practices witchcraft, within or outside of a belief system, is filling a void of some kind? Likened to drinking? I hardly see so. Most witches I know of, including myself, are actually quite content and happy in our lives. I have no void to fill. And I'll have you know, I am quite clever.

A void to fill doesn't mean you're unhappy. It means you are looking for something to do. the example of drinking was a more extreme one to highlight the fact that there is a oid to be filled, to varying extents. The fact that you have witchcraft shows you have a void to fill. People can be clever in different respects. A person with an IQ of 180 could kill someone. You would label him clever in that he has a high aptitude level but not so clever in the murdering bit. To me you're clever as an electrician, but not so much as a witch.

Having been an electrician for torpedo-loaded anti-sub helos for many years, I'll have you know I stick to science and understand it extremely well. Better than you probably do I'd wager. So don't try to infer that I don't adhere to science. I'm not an idiot.

Are you trying to say that because you know torpedo-loaded anti-sub helos you know all science? You could describe nuclear fusion, geology and palaeontology to great detail? That shows a misunderstanding of what science is. And you don't stick to science. Hence the witchcraft . I hope there's an emergency you use scientific methods and don't whip out the cauldron and start chanting.

However, the rest of your drivel here only shows what you don't understand. You want to lump everything together under "placebo effect" when, while that may be the case for some, it is simply not for others. You say that it has no effect upon others, yet you cannot possibly know that for certain. You don't believe it has an effect and so are therefore disregarding all of it without really knowing anything for sure. You feel you know better and don't need to know any more than you do. Which is regrettable.

You don't know for certain that unicorns, pink elephants, Santa Claus and fairies don't exist. I doubt you appease them. It is time for you to back up your nonsense. Show me some tests conducted on people who say witchcraft works on them that concludes that witchcraft works. Better yet, summon a spirit to appear in front of me. Or get spirit to tell you my real name. Give me some evidence.

All in all though, your statements about being fools, incredibly credulous, and the like were insulting. They were NOT criticism of a practice, they were insults upon the practitioners, and just rude.

Truth is truth
To the end of reckoning.

 

[Me Myself]

And you don't stick to science. Hence the witchcraft .

That would be like saying that you don´t know how to type because you don´t do it all the time. Science comes from that discovered through scientific method.

You don´t have to do something ALL THE TIME for it to be an important and appreciated part of your life.Hence, I don´t need scientific method for evry activity in my life. Empirism is best for most of them.

 

[Me Myself]

Truth is truth
To the end of reckoning.

I might not be very familiar with rules of forum, but did you say that someone´s beliefs is just for fools knowing full well (PUN! ) that there are members here thas susbcribe to those beliefs?

So is indirect name calling okay in the forum?

 

[Rakhel]

Are you trying to say that because you know torpedo-loaded anti-sub helos you know all science? You could describe nuclear fusion, geology and palaeontology to great detail? That shows a misunderstanding of what science is. And you don't stick to science. Hence the witchcraft . I hope there's an emergency you use scientific methods and don't whip out the cauldron and start chanting.

Who says there is no science in witchcraft?

 

[Draka]

A void to fill doesn't mean you're unhappy. It means you are looking for something to do. the example of drinking was a more extreme one to highlight the fact that there is a oid to be filled, to varying extents. The fact that you have witchcraft shows you have a void to fill. People can be clever in different respects. A person with an IQ of 180 could kill someone. You would label him clever in that he has a high aptitude level but not so clever in the murdering bit. To me you're clever as an electrician, but not so much as a witch.

So, just by the mere fact that I use witchcraft from time to time you deduce that I must have some void to fill? Hmm, and what of you? What void do you fill with what? You know nothing about me. I'm not "looking for something to do" when I do use witchcraft, I have a purpose and reason behind what I do.

Are you trying to say that because you know torpedo-loaded anti-sub helos you know all science? You could describe nuclear fusion, geology and palaeontology to great detail? That shows a misunderstanding of what science is. And you don't stick to science. Hence the witchcraft . I hope there's an emergency you use scientific methods and don't whip out the cauldron and start chanting.

I stated my career experience to illustrate that I was an intelligent and educated person. One simply could not do the job I stated without being such. It is considered the second hardest job in the US Navy (second only to Nuclear sub duty) and the hardest school in the Navy when I went through it with an over 50% dropout and failure rate. I graduated second in my class. I've been to college and will simply say I am no slouch in the intelligence department either. I'm rational, level-headed, educated, and have my feet firmly on the ground whether you want to believe that or not. Just because I have certain religious beliefs and/or practices it negates none of the above. I believe what I do because of numerous experiences I have had throughout my life. I have witnessed and done far too much in my over 3 decades to just ignore all of it and do this :ignore: . So I don't.

You don't know for certain that unicorns, pink elephants, Santa Claus and fairies don't exist. I doubt you appease them.

Hmm, one of those is a legend based on a real person, another is usually a term for hallucinating due to being under the influence of alcohol or drugs, while the unicorns and faeries...I actually do allow for the existence of. With good reason.

It is time for you to back up your nonsense. Show me some tests conducted on people who say witchcraft works on them that concludes that witchcraft works. Better yet, summon a spirit to appear in front of me. Or get spirit to tell you my real name. Give me some evidence.

Even if I wanted to, why should I? I have presented no nonsense in the first place to have to back up. I have simply pointed out several times how you have been insulting and rude and that things are not always what you want to paint them to be simply because you don't believe in something. I have to back that up? Really? It's logic and common sense, but perhaps you do have issues with that.

Not to mention that the whole premise of what witchcraft is has to do with the manipulation and direction of a spiritual Divine energy that is beyond the physical realm anyway. How does science test for the ethereal and astral anyway? When someone figures that out, then my guess is a lot of eyes will be opened. Some people are actually already makes strides in that department.

Truth is truth
To the end of reckoning.

There is no truth in name calling. Calling people fools and insulting their lives and so on is simply rude, and quite frankly, not permitted on this forum. If you can't criticize a practice or belief without resorting to basically making fun of the adherents then you shouldn't even attempt to criticize at all. Really, it just means you need to be more educated on a subject if you have to resort to condescending remarks so soon out of the gate.

 

[Erebus]

You don't know for certain that unicorns, pink elephants, Santa Claus and fairies don't exist. I doubt you appease them. It is time for you to back up your nonsense. Show me some tests conducted on people who say witchcraft works on them that concludes that witchcraft works. Better yet, summon a spirit to appear in front of me. Or get spirit to tell you my real name. Give me some evidence.

One of the joys of witchcraft is the search for one's own answers. Are you willing to go out and look for knowledge yourself? If you would rather have your answers provided by others, be it from a religious text or from a scientific journal then witchcraft isn't for you.

Also if you think that using fairies as an example conjures the image of a disney fairy princess I suggest you look up "Nuckelavee" and reconsider that position.

Who says there is no science in witchcraft?

Funny you should mention that Rakhel, most of the medieval grimoires do in fact refer to magic as a science. Odd how ideas change

 

[Cassiopia]

muffina8or you do science a dis-service by treating it like a religion and by claiming to speak from a scientific perspective when in fact every word you write betrays your ignorance of both science and witchcraft.
Science and the scientific method cannot explain everything. There are many true mysteries that remain within science which is part of the fascination that drives real scientists to work and learn more.
For example, something as fundamental as gravity cannot adequately be explained by any scientific theory or evidence at present. Sure we know it exists, we know it has a quantifiable relationship to mass and other factors, but we don't know why.
Lately we have also discovered that some particles can be in different places at the same time which seems to bring into question many of the fundamentals of physics.
Personally I am confident that in time science will indeed be able to explain some of these phenomena, but it can't do it now.
If somebody had stated in years gone by that they thought some things could be in two places at once you would accused them of indulging in fantasy, superstition or, dare I say, witchcraft.
The fact that science cannot explain certain things at present is not in any way proof that they don't exist; to claim otherwise is very unscientific.

With that in mind...

The fact that you have witchcraft shows you have a void to fill.

Leaving your prejudice out of this I'd be interested to see some scientific proof for such a sweeping claim.

Are you trying to say that because you know torpedo-loaded anti-sub helos you know all science? You could describe nuclear fusion, geology and palaeontology to great detail? That shows a misunderstanding of what science is. And you don't stick to science. Hence the witchcraft . I hope there's an emergency you use scientific methods and don't whip out the cauldron and start chanting.

Do you actually believe that adding misinformed sarcasm to your comments makes your blind prejudice sound more scientific or credible?
Whatever. Draka has brought her considerable knowledge and scientific experience to the table and you have dismissed it without consideration.
So how about you? What qualifies you to know or understand science any better than the other contributors to this thread?
Or should we just accept your expertise on blind faith?

It is time for you to back up your nonsense.

Even if it were nonsense as you so ignorantly phrase it; what would be the benefit of packing it up?
How would it benefit Draka? How would it benefit those who may presently be benefiting from her witchcraft?
What logical reason would there be for packing it up?

Show me some tests conducted on people who say witchcraft works on them that concludes that witchcraft works. Better yet, summon a spirit to appear in front of me. Or get spirit to tell you my real name. Give me some evidence.

That is not what this thread is about. However in fairness why don't you provide some evidence as to why your "views" are correct.
Hey, since you are obviously an undiscovered genius, why not provide some evidence as to how and why particles can be in different places at the same time.
Or something more simple maybe...
A short exposition as to why nothing can travel faster than light.
And then another one about how and why some things actually can.

 

[muffin8or]

I might not be very familiar with rules of forum, but did you say that someone´s beliefs is just for fools knowing full well (PUN! ) that there are members here thas susbcribe to those beliefs?

So is indirect name calling okay in the forum?

I give nowt but my opinion. Never do I purport it as fact.

 

[muffin8or]

Who says there is no science in witchcraft?

The fact that there is no evidence says that there is no science in it. I'm open to looking at the evidence

 

[muffin8or]

That would be like saying that you don´t know how to type because you don´t do it all the time. .

Actually it's like saying you always wear blue shirts and then you wear a pink shirt. You can't say I stick to the scientific method and then not stick to it.

 

[muffin8or]

So, just by the mere fact that I use witchcraft from time to time you deduce that I must have some void to fill? Hmm, and what of you? What void do you fill with what? You know nothing about me. I'm not "looking for something to do" when I do use witchcraft, I have a purpose and reason behind what I do.

I fill my void with food and alcohol. Pattern seeking and suchlike are not so conscious that you think 'Oh I must find something to do.' So tell me, what does witchcraft do for you?

I stated my career experience to illustrate that I was an intelligent and educated person. One simply could not do the job I stated without being such. It is considered the second hardest job in the US Navy (second only to Nuclear sub duty) and the hardest school in the Navy when I went through it with an over 50% dropout and failure rate. I graduated second in my class. I've been to college and will simply say I am no slouch in the intelligence department either. I'm rational, level-headed, educated, and have my feet firmly on the ground whether you want to believe that or not. Just because I have certain religious beliefs and/or practices it negates none of the above. I believe what I do because of numerous experiences I have had throughout my life. I have witnessed and done far too much in my over 3 decades to just ignore all of it and do this :ignore: . So I don't.

Well done on being so smart. You obviously have your feet firmly on the ground and stick to science when making potions. You can be rational in one respect and irrational in others.

Hmm, one of those is a legend based on a real person, another is usually a term for hallucinating due to being under the influence of alcohol or drugs, while the unicorns and faeries...I actually do allow for the existence of. With good reason.

What's the good reason?

Even if I wanted to, why should I? I have presented no nonsense in the first place to have to back up. I have simply pointed out several times how you have been insulting and rude and that things are not always what you want to paint them to be simply because you don't believe in something. I have to back that up? Really? It's logic and common sense, but perhaps you do have issues with that.

'it is simply not for others' That's what I want you to back up.

Not to mention that the whole premise of what witchcraft is has to do with the manipulation and direction of a spiritual Divine energy that is beyond the physical realm anyway. How does science test for the ethereal and astral anyway? When someone figures that out, then my guess is a lot of eyes will be opened. Some people are actually already makes strides in that department.

Since tests for the ethereal when you state that it has real world consequences. Show me a consequence. Show me a spirit.

There is no truth in name calling. Calling people fools and insulting their lives and so on is simply rude, and quite frankly, not permitted on this forum. If you can't criticize a practice or belief without resorting to basically making fun of the adherents then you shouldn't even attempt to criticize at all. Really, it just means you need to be more educated on a subject if you have to resort to condescending remarks so soon out of the gate.

'It is my opinion that you are a fool' is different to 'you are a fool'
I used the former

 

[muffin8or]

One of the joys of witchcraft is the search for one's own answers. Are you willing to go out and look for knowledge yourself? If you would rather have your answers provided by others, be it from a religious text or from a scientific journal then witchcraft isn't for you.

Also if you think that using fairies as an example conjures the image of a disney fairy princess I suggest you look up "Nuckelavee" and reconsider that position.


Funny you should mention that Rakhel, most of the medieval grimoires do in fact refer to magic as a science. Odd how ideas change

Witchcraft seems to be the search for answers without reason. That's what I don't want.

The earth was referred to as flat and the centre of the universe. Unless you have a fear of falling off the edge of the world, I think you'd concede that some medieval ideas can be wrong. Very wrong.

 

[Me Myself]

Witchcraft seems to be the search for answers without reason. That's what I don't want.

The earth was referred to as flat and the centre of the universe. Unless you have a fear of falling off the edge of the world, I think you'd concede that some medieval ideas can be wrong. Very wrong.

Science has been wrong too, and then it corrects itself. Nothing is infalible

 

[muffin8or]

muffina8or

muffin8or*

Leaving your prejudice out of this I'd be interested to see some scientific proof for such a sweeping claim.

The void is for answers, which I already explained, which come from the pattern seeking brains of our species.

Do you actually believe that adding misinformed sarcasm to your comments makes your blind prejudice sound more scientific or credible?
Whatever. Draka has brought her considerable knowledge and scientific experience to the table and you have dismissed it without consideration.
So how about you? What qualifies you to know or understand science any better than the other contributors to this thread?
Or should we just accept your expertise on blind faith?

I didn't make a scientific claim. I first stated that her detailed knowledge in a specific field of science doesn't mean she 'knows science.' This is true by definition. Even you seem to treat 'science' as a knowable field. Like you could know more science than someone else. I'd like to think that I can explain radioactivity to someone but certainly not the structure of a heart. Unless you're in primary school you don't learn science as a subject. I then stated that if there were an emergency and my hope would be that she would use scientific means to rectify it rather than witchcraft. This was given as opinion and it is true that this is my opinion.

Yes I was sarcastic. Yes I'm prejudiced. I made so scientific claim. My point and opinion were credible seeing as my point was true by definition and my opinion is just my opinion. Draka has her scientific knowledge in one specific field and thus cannot claim to understand all of science better than anyone else. Neither can I. I never said I was better qualified to know science (even though we've established no-one can know science) No expertise, no faith. Next.

Even if it were nonsense as you so ignorantly phrase it; what would be the benefit of packing it up?
How would it benefit Draka? How would it benefit those who may presently be benefiting from her witchcraft?
What logical reason would there be for packing it up?

She called what I said nonsense first, I was returning the favour. Backing not packing. The rest of your comment is invalid as you mis-read my comment. In any case, in my opinion she should pack it up as it gives people false hope. There is no evidence for it working and if she claims people benefit, in my eyes, she's a fraud. Next.

That is not what this thread is about. However in fairness why don't you provide some evidence as to why your "views" are correct.
Hey, since you are obviously an undiscovered genius, why not provide some evidence as to how and why particles can be in different places at the same time.
Or something more simple maybe...
A short exposition as to why nothing can travel faster than light.
And then another one about how and why some things actually can.

I haven't made a positive claim so I don't need proof. And what a lovely strawman argument.
1) I never claimed to be a genius.
2) A genius in the field of medicine couldn't answer your question, so why make the assumption that I could if I claimed to be a genius.
3) A genius in the field of physics couldn't answer that so even if I said I was a genius in physics it wouldn't be a failing on my part

Back to the science are we? I could be a genius in the scientific discipline of oncology and I wouldn't be able to answer that question.

And to know you think that one study into neutrinos in a given location is now proof things travel faster than light betrays your ignorance. That needs to be tested elsewhere and peer reviewed before we ditch everything and start again.

So, lorentz factors and special relativity aside, I need not answer your questions because they are irrelevant.

 

[Me Myself]

I didn't make a scientific claim. I first stated that her detailed knowledge in a specific field of science doesn't mean she 'knows science.'

Actually, it does. Most of us know the scientific method.

Your confusion spurs from the fact of thinking that knowing the scientiic method and using it for all are the same things.

I mean unless you know every aspect of science you don´t "know science" either according to what you say. If knowing a little science is enough to know about science, well then we all do.

 

[muffin8or]

Science has been wrong too, and then it corrects itself. Nothing is infalible

Witchcraft doesn't seem to question itself. Science does. That's why science changes. You said:

Funny you should mention that Rakhel, most of the medieval grimoires do in fact refer to magic as a science. Odd how ideas change

So your new comment doesn't address the fact that medieval people wrongly called magic science. Your old comment said that because people called it science then there must be science in it (because your old comment replied to this:

Who says there is no science in witchcraft?

hard to follow? Let me explain. You claimed that witchcraft had science by the fact that grimoires called it science. Your replied to the point that 'it was wrong to be called science' by saying that that science is sometimes wrong. Doesn't make sense.

 

[muffin8or]

Actually, it does. Most of us know the scientific method.

Your confusion spurs from the fact of thinking that knowing the scientiic method and using it for all are the same things.

I mean unless you know every aspect of science you don´t "know science" either according to what you say. If knowing a little science is enough to know about science, well then we all do.

Knowing the scientific method isn't knowing science. Knowing how evolution works is knowing some science. Being able to investigate that and reach the conclusion is knowing the scientific method. So if I claim my knowledge of science is better than you I'm not claiming I know the scientific method better than you, I'm claiming that in all fields of science my knowledge is superior

 

[Me Myself]

Witchcraft doesn't seem to question itself. Science does. That's why science changes. You said:

You confused me with someone, I didn´t say any of the stuff that you put below that

Now Witchcraft doesn´t need to question itself, but most good magician do would questin him/herself.