Views of witchcraft

[muffin8or]

Wow...talk about superstition!

I use the word 'seem' in order to qualify my statement. So far I haven't sen many people who agree with me. Perhaps you are one who thinks all statements are stated as fact. Not so, this was clearly an opinion based on observation.

 

[krsnaraja]

Witch crafting is for people who does not have anything to do. The empty mind is the devil`s workshop.

 

[Draka]

Witch crafting is for people who does not have anything to do. The empty mind is the devil`s workshop.

Excuse me? The empty mind? Nothing to do? Care to try to explain that nonsense?

 

[Rakhel]

Excuse me? The empty mind? Nothing to do? Care to try to explain that nonsense?

opcorn:

 

[gnostic]

From what I understand about witchcraft, they are essentially religion-neutral. Witchcraft is a craft, not a religion, sort of like job or career. They may have a religion that has nothing to do with witchcraft.

It should be distinguished from the variety of Wicca and Paganism. Wicca and Paganism are religions, which may use or dabble in witchcraft and magic.

In my view, I think Christianity had inflated the "evilness" of witchcraft. It is either exaggeration or propaganda. Witches don't worship Satan or demons, or sacrifice virgins or babies. They can worship Satan if they wish to, but they can also worship God, or pantheon of deities, if they so choose to, but the connection to Satan and witches are largely exaggerated. I believed that, at the time of the witchhunts and Inquisition, many of the women accused of practicing witchcraft, tortured and executed, were largely the results of misogynistic and sadistic Christians, who simply like hurting women.

Personally, I don't believe in witchcraft or magic or a whole lot of occultism, but nevertheless, it is interesting to read about it.

 

[muffin8or]

Excuse me? The empty mind? Nothing to do? Care to try to explain that nonsense?

What he's saying is that it's all hokum targeted and consumed by people who need something to fill the empty space in their heads and lives. I agree, if indeed that is what he's saying.

I enjoy the fact that you call criticism of witchcraft nonsense. So the spells and chanting is all true but the scepticism and criticism of it is baloney.

 

[Erebus]

1.While I understand your point of view, I still think this, in a sense, is an argument (for lack of a better term) from ignorance. In my view it is far better to just say that I don't know than to make up/accept an explanation at face value, especially one that flies in the face of what we currently know about how the universe works. As I believe Hitchens put it; what is more likely, that you have in fact witnessed an event that defies the laws of physics, or, that you have made a mistake? I know where I would put my money.



2.Indeed. However, I subscribe to the definition of atheism that states it as simply not believing in a god or gods, which means that I do not make the positive claim that there is no such thing, but that I see no reason to think that there is. Also, from a scientific point of view, the Null Hypothesis dictates that all concepts that have no positive evidence in favour of their existence are for all intents and purposes to be considered non existent. For instance, if someone develops a new medicinal cure, then the Null Hypothesis is that the treatment does not work. It is then up to the developers to empirically provide evidence to refute the Null Hypothesis. I feel this also applies to all other claims about reality, be it ghosts, auras or witchcraft.



3.While I agree that science cannot answer everything (at least not yet, and perhaps it never will) I'm sure you'll agree that the scientific method is the most powerful idea we humans have come up with, and that while it may not be the only thing we have that actually produces results, the results it does produce far and beyond blow any other method of explanation out of the water.



4.Agreed. While I prefer to rely on scientific discoveries and facts to establish my view of reality, I have no personal need to convince everyone of this. But like I said, if they choose to voice their views in public, then I will have no regrets in pointing out what I see as errors in their reasoning and demanding evidence for their claims. I have a high degree of respect for people and do my best to help them and treat them well. Ideas, on the other hand, enjoy no such protection and they should be viciously attacked and criticised to see which of them stands up to scrutiny.



5.I suppose this, on some level, comes down to the age old chestnut of whether one would rather be happy or right. For the record, I prefer the latter.

I have to apologise again for the delay in replying to you, I've numbered your points and my responses for ease

1. I can see where you're coming from here, though bear in mind that I'm neither stating as a fact that magic exists beyond placebo, nor am I really accepting something at face value. Since my main concern here is that on at least some level magic works, it has required a great deal of experimentation and practice over the years to find a system I'm happy with. As a teen I may have followed the instruction manual and put my faith in the ingredients I used to make my spell work, but not any more.
I guess again, I'm not really concerned with discovering objective truth as I don't believe we can discover objective truth at the end of the day. In my opinion we all find something that works for us and helps us find our way through life, I just happen to be quite comfortable making up my own way as I go along

2. I can certainly understand that point of view and I'm glad that scientists do follow that method. I don't always follow it myself since at the end of the day it's no biggie if I make a mistake, I'm not going to end up poisoning people. Again, I try to find my own way and tend to trust my own experiences, this is one of the reasons I don't proselytize, they're my experiences and not necessarily applicable to others.

3. Certainly, it would be incredibly hypocritical of me to belittle science while communicating with you via a computer when I say science can't answer everything I'm largely concerned with the here and now and how that relates to my own life. Even if we argue that magic is pure psychology for example, we currently know very little about the mind and therefore I have to supplement scientific knowledge with my own conclusions and trial and error approach. I'll stress again that I feel it's important that these personal experiences, ideas and conclusions be kept personal. They're a means of navigating through life and may not work for everybody.

4. I can respect that and I very much agree that ideas need to be challenged. One of the main focuses of my degree is on writing fiction, if we weren't challenged on a daily basis we'd never grow as writers. I'll freely admit that if my beliefs were subjected to thorough scientific investigation, they would be extremely unlikely to stand up to it with the exception of the psychological elements. However, I feel that by examining my own beliefs through such a perspective I've managed to split my beliefs into two categories. The use of placebo is the part that most people are able to understand, it's like having a lucky charm that encourages you to score goals in football even if you don't believe it has any supernatural power (I read an interesting study on how lucky charms improve performance, but I'm not sure now where I found it unfortunately).
The other side is the part that is not at all compatible with the scientific method, this is the theistic part. I believe in all manner of gods and spirits, though they are my beliefs and I wouldn't feel comfortable expecting somebody else to share them. It's this side that serves as a form of expression, it's my poetic side and my irrational, primitive and chaotic side. Essentially my theism can be seen both as an escape from the mundane as well as an expression of my belief that the world is not particularly ordered or rational. I can fully understand why somebody who values logic and reason would find this side of me childish, strange, dangerous and outdated. Still, it's valuable to me

5. This is a very interesting point and perhaps the only one that we wildly disagree on. I don't believe in universal right and wrong, I believe that we ultimately experience reality through our own perspectives and that while there may be overlap, it isn't always universal. We both know we will suffer if we put our hand on a hot stove, but a masochist might derive great pleasure from doing so. We could both look at the same apple and agree that it's green while a colour blind person might see a totally different colour. Essentially I'm not so much concerned with what's universally correct or incorrect as I am with asking "what works for me?" I would suggest that we have both asked ourselves this question and found different means of answering it.

Oh just so you know, I'm quite hungover so I apologise if some of this post is rambling and incoherent. Point out to me anything that doesn't make sense and I'll explain it again when I'm more alert

 

[Cassiopia]

Witch crafting is for people who does not have anything to do. The empty mind is the devil`s workshop.

Excuse me? The empty mind? Nothing to do? Care to try to explain that nonsense?

What he's saying is that it's all hokum targeted and consumed by people who need something to fill the empty space in their heads and lives. I agree, if indeed that is what he's saying.

I enjoy the fact that you call criticism of witchcraft nonsense. So the spells and chanting is all true but the scepticism and criticism of it is baloney.

This from a person who is so intellectual that s/he thinks the use of a facepalm smilie negates further argumnet or explanation!

Draka has never said that criticism of of witchcraft is nonsense. But calling something rubbish and the use of a facepalm does not constitute serious "criticism" or "scepticism". It is merely ignorant bile.

 

[Draka]

What he's saying is that it's all hokum targeted and consumed by people who need something to fill the empty space in their heads and lives. I agree, if indeed that is what he's saying.

How nice of you to speak for him. Now, since you have decided to open your mouth and so firmly implant your foot in it, would you care to back up your words? In what way do you claim that people who use witchcraft have "empty space in their heads and lives"? Are witches dumb? Have low intelligence? Don't have busy lives? Aren't successful? Please, do tell, exactly what is it that you are claiming?

I enjoy the fact that you call criticism of witchcraft nonsense. So the spells and chanting is all true but the scepticism and criticism of it is baloney.

What is nonsense is not actual criticism of witchcraft, which is not what krsnaraja or yourself is even doing here, but blanket insults of people who use witchcraft. The claims of "empty mind" and "do not have anything to do" and "modern day by fools who have no idea how to critically think and who are incredibly credulous" and the like are nonsense. Back up the nonsense, which you can't do, or knock it off. Looks like you're stuck with "knock it off".

 

[InChrist]

I’d say those who practice witchcraft are no different than anyone else. Many may be very intelligent, professional people or teenagers out on a dark night with a wide variety in between. I don’t believe the practice of witchcraft at its root is much different than any other practice that attempts to put one’s self in the position of God and have power or control which I believe the scriptures indicate belongs only to the Creator. The rites in the Masonic Lodge, the practices in the Mormon temples, many Catholic, Hindu or Buddhist rituals and even many so-called Christian formulas and practices are all akin to witchcraft from my perspective and the Bible calls all of this rebellion.

 

[Draka]

I’d say those who practice witchcraft are no different than anyone else. Many may be very intelligent, professional people or teenagers out on a dark night with a wide variety in between. I don’t believe the practice of witchcraft at its root is much different than any other practice that attempts to put one’s self in the position of God and have power or control which I believe the scriptures indicate belongs only to the Creator. The rites in the Masonic Lodge, the practices in the Mormon temples, many Catholic, Hindu or Buddhist rituals and even many so-called Christian formulas and practices are all akin to witchcraft from my perspective and the Bible calls all of this rebellion.

I can at least respect that view. It's not resorting to insulting and condescension and trying to call it "criticism". I especially like how you say "from my perspective".

 

[InChrist]

I can at least respect that view. It's not resorting to insulting and condescension and trying to call it "criticism". I especially like how you say "from my perspective".

And I can respect you or anyone as a person and show Christ-like love though I may disagree with someone's practices.

 

[Draka]

And I can respect you or anyone as a person and show Christ-like love though I may disagree with someone's practices.

Same here. I can respect other people and be friends with them and get along fine with them even while disagreeing with their beliefs and/or practices. It's a matter of mutual respect and civility.

 

[ratikala]

And I can respect you or anyone as a person and show Christ-like love though I may disagree with someone's practices.

dear in christ ,

before one decides to dissagree with someone elses practices , it would be wise to find out not just what these practices entail , but more importantly what the motivation behind the use of such practices might be .

To my mind the generalisations being used in some posts here are alarming , it seems though as some religions have been culturaly conditioned to strike out against the practices of others whilst knowing little or nothing about them , I am not attacking christians in particular as this kind of conditioning exists in many traditions , however personaly I find it unhelpfull and at times bordering on inhuman and unkind .

my reason for reading this forum is to understand better the minds of others with different faiths , not to dissagree with them , however what I do object to most strongly are the people who are deliberately dissruptive , unfortunately they simply disscredit their own traditions .(this coment is not directed at you .)but at those who know what they are doing and should be ashamed of themselves !

namaskars :namaste ....ratikala

 

[blackout]

Witch crafting is for people who does not have anything to do. The empty mind is the devil`s workshop.

People who don't have anything to do like go to church on Sunday morning?

 

[InChrist]

dear in christ ,

before one decides to dissagree with someone elses practices , it would be wise to find out not just what these practices entail , but more importantly what the motivation behind the use of such practices might be .

To my mind the generalisations being used in some posts here are alarming , it seems though as some religions have been culturaly conditioned to strike out against the practices of others whilst knowing little or nothing about them , I am not attacking christians in particular as this kind of conditioning exists in many traditions , however personaly I find it unhelpfull and at times bordering on inhuman and unkind .

my reason for reading this forum is to understand better the minds of others with different faiths , not to dissagree with them , however what I do object to most strongly are the people who are deliberately dissruptive , unfortunately they simply disscredit their own traditions .(this coment is not directed at you .)but at those who know what they are doing and should be ashamed of themselves !

namaskars :namaste ....ratikala

I agree I think disruptive and disrespectful comments are counter-productive and hinder conversation with others and understanding of another person. Some people like to do it deliberately for fun, to get attention, or to make themselves look smart or clever. In all honestly, I think all of us do it at one time or another. I haven't been on this forum very long, yet I had several warnings and infractions because I've been careless with the way I've worded my posts.

 

[muffin8or]

This from a person who is so intellectual that s/he thinks the use of a facepalm smilie negates further argumnet or explanation!

Draka has never said that criticism of of witchcraft is nonsense. But calling something rubbish and the use of a facepalm does not constitute serious "criticism" or "scepticism". It is merely ignorant bile.

The facepalm got you so riled up? I didn't use it to negate further argument, I used it to convey my emotion. And I didn't use it as criticism or scepticism, I used it to convey my emotion. Why pick up on that?

And note, I did say 'if indeed that is what he meant' thereby qualifying that it was my interpretation of what he said.

You assume too much.

 

[Draka]

The facepalm got you so riled up? I didn't use it to negate further argument, I used it to convey my emotion. And I didn't use it as criticism or scepticism, I used it to convey my emotion. Why pick up on that?

And note, I did say 'if indeed that is what he meant' thereby qualifying that it was my interpretation of what he said.

You assume too much.

Would it be assuming too much for me to assume that you may at some point deign to respond to my questions of you? My request for you to explain your insults? Insults are not criticism of a practice, just so you know, they are merely the tactics of an obnoxious bully.

Better yet, instead of bothering to try and explain your baseless insults, how about you just apologize for them? Yeah, I think I like that idea much better.

 

[muffin8or]

How nice of you to speak for him.

I said 'if indeed that is what he's saying' in order to show that I was interpreting what he said. Maybe you missed that.

Now, since you have decided to open your mouth and so firmly implant your foot in it, would you care to back up your words? In what way do you claim that people who use witchcraft have "empty space in their heads and lives"? Are witches dumb? Have low intelligence? Don't have busy lives? Aren't successful? Please, do tell, exactly what is it that you are claiming?

I'm not saying they are dumb or haven't got busy lives. But let's look at this. Name me a multimillionaire that is a witch (is a male witch called a wizard in these cults?) Or a successful businessman or influential politician that is a witch/wizard. I certainly can' think of any.

I say empty space in their heads for a good reason. That reason is why people drink after ending bad relationships or people get obsessed for a while about cars or movies. It's because everyone has a void to fill to varying extents. At one time it may have been filled with a relationship to which you devoted your time, then you move to drinking when that crashes. You may spend a small fortune on cars or film memorabilia. What I'm saying is drinking and wasting money, like practicing witchcraft, is not clever. It doesn't make you dumb, just not clever. In my opinion.

What is nonsense is not actual criticism of witchcraft, which is not what krsnaraja or yourself is even doing here, but blanket insults of people who use witchcraft. The claims of "empty mind" and "do not have anything to do" and "modern day by fools who have no idea how to critically think and who are incredibly credulous" and the like are nonsense. Back up the nonsense, which you can't do, or knock it off. Looks like you're stuck with "knock it off".

Time to back up the nonsense. Humans are pattern seeking animals, this is well noted. We try to see order out of chaos, i.e. filling the void with something we can relate to. We see this when people call others 'lucky.' A series of positive events are seen as being related by their positive nature and, as such, that person is labelled lucky. In actuality the events are just random individual events that have no linking factor. This isn't just a throwaway remark. People bet thousands of dollars at a time in casinos based on winning streaks and people genuinely have lucky items, be it clothing or otherwise.

You can then see how primitive religions are formed. Why did I survive the hurricane and plague? Why does the sun rise every day? I'll unify them all by saying God did it and pray yo God so it keeps happening. Witchcraft is similar to this (at least in my opinion) It has no effect yet people who say they feel its effects repeat whatever they did. The placebo effect takes hold. It's the positive attitude that helps, nothing more. But this is attributed to the action. So you keep performing that action. It becomes habitual, much like religious ritual. No longer is it the effect that is sought after, it is the ritual that becomes paramount. Tadaa! Witchcraft is born. Rituals for rituals sake, or for that lovely placebo feeling.

Have your eye of newt if you want, I'll stick to testable science.

 

[muffin8or]

Would it be assuming too much for me to assume that you may at some point deign to respond to my questions of you? My request for you to explain your insults? Insults are not criticism of a practice, just so you know, they are merely the tactics of an obnoxious bully.

Better yet, instead of bothering to try and explain your baseless insults, how about you just apologize for them? Yeah, I think I like that idea much better.

Oops, I didn't know you wanted a 10 second reply. I thought I'd give due care and attention to your comment. Hence the brief interlude before my responses to the two separate comments.