Utterly Lost

[peter22]

So by way of an update I've decided to try attending an Anglican church for a while and seeing how that sits with me. Not too much you have to believe to be an Anglican so that may be a good match for me.

 

[outlawState]

When I disavowed my Christianity, it was very traumatic, but I eventually came to understand that my trauma was only due to my indoctrinative conditioning. But I didn't overreact and become an angry atheist. I don't believe in God, because there's a complete absence of evidence for (or against) God, but I hope that there is. And if there is a God, It would have created the universe for one reason only, to serve as a stage for fully self-aware beings to exercise their moral free will. GOD COULD HAVE DONE ANYTHING ELSE INSTANTLY. Free will requires that we can never know, in this life, that there is a God.

You talk nonsense. The way of faith reveals God. As Paul the apostle said, "I know him whom I have believed" 2 Tim 1;12.

The only way to know God is to believe in God, and the only way to believe in God is to obey his commands by exercising our free will.

I take that you just didn't want to obey God any more.

 

[outlawState]

So by way of an update I've decided to try attending an Anglican church for a while and seeing how that sits with me. Not too much you have to believe to be an Anglican so that may be a good match for me.

You need to be careful with Anglicanism because of all those women priests who exist only to promote their own honour, and their sycophants who do not believe at all. In fact you need to be very careful everywhere.

I would strongly recommend Free Presbyterianism as an antidote to Catholicism, but the truth is (probably) you'll be spending much of the rest of your life recovering from Roman Catholic dogma, if you got hit badly by it. Still there are some Roman Catholic believers, so I guess you might still return there one day. I have discovered that it is futile to expect any one denomination to provide all the answers. Everyone is imperfect in this day and age, but it all usually depends on the minister as to what gets put out by way of doctrine, whereever you go.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

You talk nonsense. The way of faith reveals God. As Paul the apostle said, "I know him whom I have believed" 2 Tim 1;12.

2 Timothy probably wasn't even written by Paul. But in any case, when we talk about Paul, we're looking at 100% ancient hearsay. He was at serious odds with Jesus brother James and the Jerusalem Church (who were about to tear Paul limb from limb when he was saved by his Herodian inherited citizenship); and some of his own followers questioned his veracity. To top all of that off, he is almost certainly the beast of Revelation, which was written from a Jewish Christian perspective--the number of the beast being Jewish gematria for Tarsus, the center of Roman Mithraism.

The only way to know God is to believe in God.

If I'd known you were going to say that, I wouldn't have bothered. But it's there, it's true, so it stands for whoever cares to look into it.[/QUOTE]

 

[outlawState]

2 Timothy probably wasn't even written by Paul. But in any case, when we talk about Paul, we're looking at 100% ancient hearsay. He was at serious odds with Jesus brother James and the Jerusalem Church (who were about to tear Paul limb from limb when he was saved by his Herodian inherited citizenship); and some of his own followers questioned his veracity. To top all of that off, he is almost certainly the beast of Revelation, which was written from a Jewish Christian perspective--the number of the beast being Jewish gematria for Tarsus, the center of Roman Mithraism.

The painful truth is that the letters of Paul are entirely consistent with the teachings of Jesus and bear no relation to Mithraism. For a start Paul never confuses Jesus the Son with God the Father. The heresy that sought to confound Jesus the man with God in heaven only arose much later. Even if Mithraism (and Manichaeism) later entered into and corrupted the Roman church, there is precious little evidence of it vis-a-vis Paul the apostle.

http://strangenotions.com/exploding-mithras-myth/

If I'd known you were going to say that, I wouldn't have bothered. But it's there, it's true, so it stands for whoever cares to look into it.

You said "Free will requires that we can never know, in this life, that there is a God."

I have never heard so much tosh. That is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. He taught that free will infers that we can know God, despite the encroachments of the State onto personal freedoms.

May I suggest why you no longer believe? It is because you waste you time peddling untruths about Christianity and its founder and its apostles. You won't ever believe until you repent.

 

[PilgrimOfLight]

I've entered into a sort of spiral of doubt where I really do not know what I do believe. I don't know what is true any more. I can say that I truly believe that there is a God who is one. And beyond that, I am just so uncertain on everything. Anyone else been here? Any direction or advice would be greatly appreciate.

The situation you find yourself in is, imo, a maturing process. We are all conditioned from early age to believe certain things but over time, rational thought and the increasing confidence to challenge, to ask questions, to THINK, takes its toll on the conditioning and things begin to change.

Personally I would congratulate you on reaching that stage. Many don't, the conditioning runs too deep for them and the guilt and fear take over.

We reach this stage in different ways. Sometimes you have a basic instinct which tells you that something about mainstream religion just isn't right. For others, the contradictions in the Bible spark that epiphany, for others the realities of life, suffering, atrocities etc pull at the rational mind which tells you that things are not what they seem.

Now your search has truly begun imo. Keep searching and the answers will come.

Flitting to other religions is not the answer. That is not going to fill the hole in your life. The hole you have, the doubt, the uncertainty can be filled with only one thing and that is . . . truth.

Doesn't matter what that turns out to be, where it takes you, what it reveals, at the end of the day, all we all want and need is the plain truth.

My own journey began some 5-6 years ago after a long period of realising mainstream religion was not right and being in a wilderness. I began to search for answers and they began to come. I had no idea whatsoever of the things I would learn.

The Bible makes no sense to many people. It's contradictions, it's inaccuracies, it's often gibberish writing. There's a reason for that. A reason why taking it literally, the stories, the testimonies, all of it, just inexorably leads to nonsense and disbelief. That reason imho is because the Bible was a work of men, scholarly men, who needed to record some of life's biggest and most important secrets. They recorded information cryptically and they recorded it in code. For decades those secrets have been kept from the general populous in favour of peddling the literal stories in order to control people's behaviours. That is where your answers lie.

This is not the place to discuss it all, at least not this thread. Happy to discuss it elsewhere.

I will tell you however that even the opening passages of Genesis are not understood by millions of Christians worldwide. Those passages are nothing to do with the creation of the universe/world. They describe a physical alchemical process. A process which is equally cryptically laid out in all manner of treatises, works, scripts and tomes. It concerns a huge secret of life, perhaps THE very secret of life. It is a secret that is referenced in the tomes of almost every mainstream religion in one form or another. A secret that has been described in hundred of documents of the great philosophers and sages. It is a thing that makes perfect sense, a thing of Nature and once you understand it you see it referenced all over the place, like it was always there hidden in plain sight.
Once you understand it, you then understand what the Bible is, what its purpose was, to conceal great secrets in a time in history where people would be hunted and killed for those secrets. It breaks my heart that millions of people go about their lives caught in the conditioned spell of mainstream religion which is not being truthful about what is in the Bible. It is inherently wrong.

Therefore, seek, be courageous, dare to believe and trust in the process wherever it takes you.

The answers are out there, trying to find you.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

So by way of an update I've decided to try attending an Anglican church for a while and seeing how that sits with me. Not too much you have to believe to be an Anglican so that may be a good match for me.

If you're looking for a place to put your faith that will make you feel the best, pick whatever revealed religion suits you. But if you want to use reason to decide, there's only two choices--atheism and deism. I've been with deism since I became an adult, it's the that offers hope, and the pieces of the puzzle of the Big Picture I've found since then almost put themselves into the puzzle. But it offers no certainty and there are very few deist fellowships out there, and many of those will just tell you what they think you want to hear to get you to join. I thought the Unitarians might be a good fit, but it turns, based on the ones I've looked into or heard about, only if you're into political liberalism and/or mysticism. Check 'em out, just keep your eyes open.

 

[Notanumber]

The only way to know God is to believe in God, and the only way to believe in God is to obey his commands by exercising our free will.

I take that you just didn't want to obey God any more.

Some say that the law is an a*s but I would rather obey the law of the land than any god.

 

[outlawState]

Some say that the law is an a*s but I would rather obey the law of the land than any god.

The law of the land is represents a god, archetypally, as it is an expression of power and authority. The real question is does the law of the land come from God, or from angels, or from demons?

So what you are realy saying is that you don't care what god/God you worship, which begs the question, do you know right from wrong? What happens if the law dictated you to do something immoral? That is pretty much what the bible says will happen - i.e. the law will itself become immoral, i.e. a violation of God's law. Everyone then will have to decide which law to obey, the law of men or the law of God.

 

[Notanumber]

The law of the land is represents a god, archetypally, as it is an expression of power and authority. The real question is does the law of the land come from God, or from angels, or from demons?

So what you are realy saying is that you don't care what god/God you worship, which begs the question, do you know right from wrong? What happens if the law dictated you to do something immoral? That is pretty much what the bible says will happen - i.e. the law will itself become immoral, i.e. a violation of God's law. Everyone then will have to decide which law to obey, the law of men or the law of God.

I hope that it comes from reasoned sanity and not some mumbo jumbo that someone dreamt up in a cave. Need I say more?

 

[outlawState]

I hope that it comes from reasoned sanity and not some mumbo jumbo that someone dreamt up in a cave. Need I say more?

What happens if you had a vision of law-givers in hell? Would you still want to obey their law? That will be the destination of many law-givers, cf. the Pharisees & Sadducees. In the bible, obedience to the law of antichrist is referred to (symbolically) as the mark of the beast.

"It [the State] also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads" Rev 13;16.

 

[PilgrimOfLight]

"It [the State] also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads" Rev 13;16.

As it happens this is on its way. RFID chips are going to be embedded under our skin between out thumb and forefingers. Many thousands are already being trialled. The contactless RFID chip in your bank card is the first step. Putting that chip in your hand is the next.

 

[Notanumber]

As it happens this is on its way. RFID chips are going to be embedded under our skin between out thumb and forefingers. Many thousands are already being trialled. The contactless RFID chip in your bank card is the first step. Putting that chip in your hand is the next.

If it is on its way is a god or some religion going to prevent it.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Some say that the law is an a*s but I would rather obey the law of the land than any god.

I like your links for apostates in North America and Britain. And apostasy brings the subject of the source of law into focus. In Muslim majority countries, the punishment for those offenses can be anything from nothing to execution. That tells us that the law is whatever the self-appointed spokesman of God says it is. That's theocracy in a nutshell, which is worse under Islam today; but Christianity and Judaism have done just as bad in the past, and it could come from any religious fanatic(s) that acquire the power in the future.

 

[seeking4truth]

God is the only one who can guide you an His path. All believers can give advice based on their own experiences.
In the early morning between dawn and sunrise appeal to God to make clear to you the right path. If you are sincere in your quest He will guide you otherwise no one would believe.
The time is normally the quietest, with least distractions and after sleeping you are refreshed enough to concentrate on what is important to you.

 

[osgart]

I myself don't get hung up on God. The concept of holiness is intriguing. What does it mean to be holy.

human beings aren't holy. nothing I ever experienced is holy. but when I think of a holy being I think of one that is literally perfect virtue.

That to me is a human aspiration, perfect innocence.

held to the standard of holiness what religion stands up to that test.

none that I have found. having some imagination and avoiding delusion, ask yourself, what is true innocence?

I think every human being falls short of it.

i mean what does true justice in its purest form look like. we humans always deal in negative justice, but positive justice is inspiring.

so find your inspiration, and inspiration leads to the divine. even if this universe is far from divine, divinity may be out there somewhere.

even at the end of the day you only have yourself, you can at least picture holiness,and aspire to it.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I myself don't get hung up on God. The concept of holiness is intriguing. What does it mean to be holy.

My philosophy holds that God and Truth are interchangeable, whatever that ultimate Truth might be--even if it there is no omnipotent super being. And I deem the pursuit of Truth to be holy, the encapsulation of an ultimate ideal.

human beings aren't holy. nothing I ever experienced is holy. but when I think of a holy being I think of one that is literally perfect virtue.

Well, perfect Truth, meaning where non-virtuousness wouldn't even be possible.

That to me is a human aspiration, perfect innocence.

Yes, a laudable goal, but there isn't a human alive who doesn't lie to himself. I envision an afterlife as existing bathed in the light of Truth. Without the ability of self-deception, some withered souls would be in instant agony when unable to ignore their evil hearts, and opt immediately for the mercy of oblivion. Why would God and the heavenly host want to even have knowledge of the eternal cacophony and gnashing of teeth in hell. Hell is really the concoction of sadists, little knowing they'd be first in line.

held to the standard of holiness what religion stands up to that test.

No revealed religion could (and they all rely on revelations of some sort), but two philosophies would--agnostic-deism and agnostic-atheism.

none that I have found. having some imagination and avoiding delusion, ask yourself, what is true innocence?

Excellent question, and I have an excellent answer: The quality of not being fully self-aware and thus unable to comprehend good and evil.

I think every human being falls short of it.

Thankfully, because otherwise we wouldn't have free will, a term for as the ability to choose to fall short...or not.

i mean what does true justice in its purest form look like. we humans always deal in negative justice, but positive justice is inspiring.

Excellent observation indeed. Justice is one of my 4 (that I've come up with) aspects of Truth (knowledge, love and beauty being the other three). Positive justice, which I call poetic justice, is actually very common, but we only have informal courts of public opinion that recognize it. I rarely shed any tears when I'm sad, but poetic justice gets me every time.

so find your inspiration, and inspiration leads to the divine. even if this universe is far from divine, divinity may be out there somewhere.

But God, if It exists must not reveal Itself, in order to maintain our free will--the sole reason for God creating this natural 4-D universe free will laboratory in the first place, so that we are insulated from any awareness of the divine, if it exists. An omnipotent God could have created anything else instantly. I imagine divinity, God, as watching from the "outside", in timeless quantumland.

even at the end of the day you only have yourself, you can at least picture holiness,and aspire to it.

Yes, and thus, at the end of the day, we will each sit in judgement of ourselves, bathed in the light of Truth and with the oblivion button close at hand.