Useful emptiness

[Master Vigil]

Thirty spokes converge upon a single hub,
It is the hole in the center that the use of the cart hinges.
We make a vessel from a lump of clay,
It is the empty space within the vessel that makes it useful.
We make doors and windows for a room,
But it is these empty spaces that make the room livable.
Thus, while the tangible has its advantages,
It is the intangible that makes it useful.

Do you understand? Comments, Questions, Concerns??

 

[dudley thoth]

Thirty spokes converge upon a single hub,
It is the hole in the center that the use of the cart hinges.
We make a vessel from a lump of clay,
It is the empty space within the vessel that makes it useful.
We make doors and windows for a room,
But it is these empty spaces that make the room livable.
Thus, while the tangible has its advantages,
It is the intangible that makes it useful.

Do you understand? Comments, Questions, Concerns??

Empty space is not nothing but something. Nothing doesn't exist whereas something does.

the combination of space and matter creates form.

Space and matter gives us foundation and freedom.

 

[painted wolf]

what makes those items usefull is what you do with the empty space... a vessel is only usefull if you fill it a wheel only useful if put it on an axle and a door only useful if you pass through it....

faith/morality/spirituality/the soul is not a solid thing but a usefull emptyness... which should be used.


wa:-do

 

[Master Vigil]

good painted wolf. Basically it gives a metaphor for the idea of the Tao being empty but the most useful and important thing in the universe. Do you see the intangible as or more important than the tangible??

 

[Runt]

I see tangible and intangible as equally important. One cannot exist without the other, for they are opposites and therefore define one another. They also cannot be of differing importance, for that would make them unbalanced, and yin and yang, or the union of opposites, must be in balance for reality to be as it should be.

 

[painted wolf]

I agree with Runt...
You can not have one without the other...
I think importance depends on situation... If I am starving spiritually, the Tao is the most nessisary thing... If I am starving physically then the tangible hamburger is the most important.. 8)
In truth I need both to be healthy...

wa:-do

 

[Master Vigil]

Yes, Taoism tries to tell that the intangible is as important as the tangible. What we don't see must not be pushed aside and taken for granted.

Now remember, not all things are in perfect balance. Only the Tao is, and as unknowing in its intangible form, how do we come to know it in its tangible form?

 

[Runt]

Only the Tao is, and as unknowing in its intangible form, how do we come to know it in its tangible form?

I would ask instead how we define the intangible when it is unknowable. The tangible is within our grasp because we see it all around us; it is within our perception. Knowing the tangible is easy. The intangible, however, is NOT within our perception. So how do we even begin to understand it? I think they key lies in understanding its opposite, the tangible, first, then using the tangible to define the intangible, the "Eternal Tao".

To explain in a subtally different way, because we humans have a binary system of meaning (opposites defining one another), the only way to understand the intangible is through NEGATION. We must look the intangible's opposite, we must define what the TANGIBLE is, and then use those definitions to say what the intangible is NOT, before we can determine with the intangible IS.

Pretend, for example, that there are two objects, A and B, which are opposites. If we seek to understand B but it is hidden in another room and we can't see it or otherwise sense it, then the only way we can understand its nature is by looking at A's nature, negating it, then defining those negations to understand the nature of B.

A: black, warm.

B therefore is NOT black and NOT warm.

B therefore is white and cold.

The tangible: divided, knowable, agitated, out of balance, can be explained with words.

The intangible therefore is NOT divided, not knowable, not agitated, not out of balance, and not able to be explained with words.

The intangible therefore IS undivided, unknowable, unagitated, balanced, and cannot be explained with words.

 

[Master Vigil]

Think in terms of the Tao though. The eternal Tao is unknowable yes, but is the Tao unknowable? No, we have the natural Tao, the natural Tao is not completely tangible however. Some of its properties include the intangible. How is the Tao known in its tangible form however.

 

[painted wolf]

wait... now we have 2 Taos?

I thought there was only one Tao?

wa:-do

 

[Master Vigil]

One Tao yes, but the essence of the Tao that we cannot understand is normally referred to as the Eternal Tao. That which we can know is called the natural Tao. These are the same thing. But different perceptions of the same thing.

 

[Francine]

The eternal Tao is unknowable yes, but is the Tao unknowable?

We cannot know Tao because Tao is No-Thing. Knowers of things only know things.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
Agree with Francine that Tao is unknowable as a SEER or as a KNOWER but surely one can be one with TAO as NO-THING or a VOID. It is such a space where the mind does not function and as soon as one wants to talk about it the Mind has to function and that itself will never be correct [what Loa Tzu also said] Only when the Knower and the Known becomes one is when one is with Tao.
Yes, Master vigil, space has to be viewed as Gestalt then only we find how the spaces are used in a room or elsewhere.
Love & rgds