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UNRWA fires 12 workers over suspected involvement in the October 7 attacks on Israel

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
I'm not skipping over anything. I'm showing you that the children are playing. That a vast majority are surviving. Your over-reaction has been corrected... again.
Sure you are. Yes, the majority will survive because genocide is not an option. But more innocent palestinians have been killed in the last 4 months than all of the israelis combined over the last 70 yrs.

So which bigots are over reacting?
These are my ethics in this discussion:
Military necessity is best evaluated dispassionately. The simple truth is, if israel does not operate precisely as it is, more innocent people will die. And many of those deaths will not be coming from bombs or collapsing buildings as a result of a personal choice to martyr themselves and martyr their children. They will be killed in the worst of the worst manner. Raped, tortured, burned alive in their homes.

Worst of the worst are the people whom you are supporting by propagating their talking points. Here, let me show you.

In the spoiler at the bottom of this post is a picture of a parent and child which were burned to death. Their remains have been inspected by non-israeli objective journalists and forensic MDs from multiple countries, not just the US, not just the UK.

The first thing to notice are the restraints. Those are the thick metal wires indicated by the red arrows. These restraints are not common. Zip ties, duct tape, are common. They were likely chosen intentionally so that when the victims are burned, the restraints remain intact.

The next thing to notice are the arching of the spines concave towards each other, indicated by the green arrows. This strongly suggests that the two, an adult and a child, were tightly embracing while they were being burned.

This is why forensic experts have concluded these two were very likely burned alive intentionally. There are reports, pictures, confessions from the attack and by those who committed atrocities. The pictures show the evacuation shelters being burned in an effort to "smoke out" the innocent victims so that the attackers can kidnap them. You see, in these kibbutzim ( left wing socialist communes, basically ) the residents know that the Palestinians have been murdering innocent people for several decades. They have "panic rooms", more or less, built into these communities. In order to defeat these emergency bunkers, the terrorists lit them on fire. However, this picture, these two specifically, are different. They were intentionally burned alive.

Beyond this there are many many more INTENTIONAL atrocities against innocent people. The israeli tactics are absolutely NOT intended to harm innocent people. I understand that this deviates from visions, prophecy, or spiritual insight which you claim to have received. But it's not true.

As I've mentioned before I have a friend working at a military base in the south of Gaza. He told me a story a week ago. The israelis lost an entire team clearing a building of innocent people in Khan Younis because the building needed demolition, and intelligence suggested innocent life needed to be saved. A whole team, 21 individuals, lost their lives trying to save Gazans who will never appreciate it. The base was in shock. Mental health professionals were called up to service those who were struggling with the loss. It is a real tragedy. My friend says it could have been avoided. There were mistakes made. And that, in large part, is what made it so painful.

That is what israel is doing on a daily basis. It's the untold story of young people putting themselves in harm's way. Doing the right thing regardless of public opinion. My friend tells me they know the world will never understand, and, it doesn't matter, but, it does hurt. War is about making choices to do the right thing even if it hurts.

The police investigators and emergency personnel describe what the violent extremists, the ones whom you are helping, did to women and men whose genitals were mutilated. Many victims. The police reported, paraphrasing "they [the terrorists] had a thing for genitals". Examples were shooting women from one side of the breast to the other. Shooting men in their genitals. Removing the breasts with a knife. Is that the "right thing to do" even though "it hurts" and is "unpopular"? What does it accomplish? Raping women and taking hostages? Burning parents with the children? Leaving the remains? Recoding video of their crimes and posting it on the internet in real-time?

In real-time. Are you understanding what this means? The terrorists know israel is monitoring their communications. The terrorists are encouraging their foot-soldiers to record and post the atrocities. This is coming from the confessions and body cam video. The terrorists want to terrify. They want to provoke the over-reaction. The want to manipulate the israeli emotions, then, they intend to provoke the over-reaction of sympathy from you and people like you. In part it worked. A few politicians said some awful things. But those who implement policy did not act on those statements. The angry violent genocidal rhetoric was recorded on camera. But the genocide isn't actually taking place.

Posting the content produced a reaction from israel, and continuing to post content is continuing to produce ( trigger ) a reaction from you and people like you who are sympathetic to their cause and sympathetic to their violent deeds. What good comes from this? Anything? What good comes from manipulating your emotions and emotions of the israelis?

The witnesses to these atrocities are varied, scattered across the country. They are not isolated events. Those whom you are supporting, by speaking on their behalf, echoing their slogans, use the ideas of genocide, apartheid, oppression, to incite worst of the worst crimes against innocent people. It's not "resistance". It's breeding human-monsters. Your participation in this is unethical from my point of view. Understandable, but, it's still wrong. Watching your over-reactions is teaching me precisely what I don't want to do and who I don't want to be.

My ethics are to not be like you, and not be like them, because I am not like you and I am not like them. I intend to approach these subjects dispassionately. I intend to always probe deeply and in detail on a case by case basis. I intend to avoid rushing to judgment. I reject drawing conclusions based on headlines, which is what I see you doing.

And most important, I adapt. I assimilate new information and I apologize and correct myself if I am wrong. I am not perfect. I am not a prophet. I am not receiving divine revelations. That means I am not emotionally bound to confirming my own beliefs. Being wrong does not compromise my identity. Those are my ethics.

Here's the picture of the ones who were burned alive by the monsters you are supporting.

After reading you first line about your ethics on the matter i skipped the rest of the rubbish of your post.

You expect impunity for israel and that is all that matters to you.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
:facepalm:
That is truly astonishing
What's the problem?

You don't like US American's defending Jews from being condemned for what that apartheid israel is doing?

I've watched this mess for too long and it is very clear that israel has done more damage to Jews and Judaism, than anything since ww2.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
A two state solution? :thumbsup:

Doesn't seem the powers that be actually want that though.
In the 55 or so years that has been proposed you'd think more progress would have been made if there was actually any willingness for it.

I think a two-state solution is likely after a while but with Israeli and U.N. oversight.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Look up shoah, that atrocity was very specific

I studied it in Poland and Israel and taught about it in a 3-week unit in my poli sci course along with other examples of genocide. What we're seeing the Israelis doing in Gaza simply is not genocide because it would look very differently if it actually was.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think a two-state solution is likely after a while but with Israeli and U.N. oversight.
A 2-state solution with Israeli oversight isn't a 2 state solution.
We see how Israel treats Palestinians, so the fundamental
reason for the conflict would remain. UN oversight, weak
as it would be, could still be useful.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I wonder how many innocent people were killed during WWII, and yet I doubt many people in the west accused the Allies of genocide and war crimes.
Fire bombing of Dresden
Fire storms in Japan
Fat Man & Little Boy.
Russia's Rape Of Berlin.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You don't like US American's defending Jews from being condemned for what that apartheid israel is doing?

Apartheid??? There are roughly 5000 Palestinians in the IDF, and they were not drafted.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Apartheid??? There are roughly 5000 Palestinians in the IDF, and they were not drafted.
And in the antebellum South, there were black slave owners.
Would you argue that blacks liked slavery?
Would the existence of Uncle Toms mean that slavery was beneficial?

"Genocide" fits the definition, based upon Israel's actions &
results, plus the openly stated goal of "voluntarily emigrating"
surviving Palestinians to Africa. (Israel has some gold medal
winning doubleplusgood duckspeakers, eh.)
 
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libre

Skylark
Staff member
Premium Member
Apartheid??? There are roughly 5000 Palestinians in the IDF, and they were not drafted.
I don't really understand why that is an argument against the charge of Apartheid.
The SADF surely had that many non-whites in it's military, and it was about half the size of the IDF today during the mid 80s.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
No apologies necessary.

Thank you.

I agree. Pegasus is a very effective tool at gathering everything on a cellular device on a system level.
However, the power of the exploit doesn't actually evidence what the phones user was doing, or if it is being accurately interpreted.

Ttue. If the phone data can be ambiguous if it's the only evidence. That's not what's happening here. The UNRWA has a history of support off violent extremism. They teach violent extremism to their students. They use their funding to fuel it. They celebrate it. That's shows motive. GPS data of the individuals IN israel in the kibbutzim implicate their participation. Pictures on the individual's phones show they were at least involved in attacking and kidnapping.

Prior to this, the UNRWA was only guilty of planning violent extremism and propagating extremist ideology. Now there is evidence of implementing those violent ideas and ideals. That's the line, when crossed, which produces a military response. For example: Individuals might want to overthrow "the government", but, until they start acquiring the resources to implement their desires/plans those individuals are not a credible threat. In the most recent operation in Jenin, as soon as the three "planners" took action to allocate resources ( weapons ) the isrealis took proactive measures to eliminate the treat.

In regard to the UNRWA, it's well known that the entire organization supports violent extremists. This support is on a spectrum. At one end it's providing safe harbor for the terrorists. At the other end there's active participation in terrorism. In the middle is teaching and training young people to become terrorists. That teaching is the majority of their funding. They are the source of violent extremism.

However, if they are only teaching violence, and preaching violence, and encouraging violence, that is not the the same as committing the crime. They're just ideas until someone actualizes them. But, if they've been preaching it, and teaching it, and encouraging it for over 2 decades, the instant that there's evidence that they are acting on those intentions ... say good bye to the majority of those dollars.

There is no good reason to continue supporting UNRWA at this point. No *good* reason. There's reasons to support them, but none of of them are good. It's difficult for people to accept that the world community has been funding the indoctrination off terrorism, the breeding of human monsters. But, that's what's been happening. It's difficult for some ( many? ) to accept that the world community, the UN, an institution which they trusted is rotten. For those that are anti-israel, by default, they are probably in-love with the UN. And love is blind.

Here's confirmation that the majority of UNRWA funding is going to indoctrination of the youth. These are not critical life affirming services. To the contrary, they teach the children to love death.
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From the martyr declaration of Muhammad Hassanaldiri documented in the Palestinian children's magazine, Al-Fahteh, ( the "conqueror" ).

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"عشق الموت" "he loved death" and did not fear it, and despite his skinny body.

My criticisms of NSO group may be slightly tangential, but I wanted to make it clear that more than anything the Pegasus tool has been used to attack civil society

More than anything? I'm not sure how that conclusion can be reached rationally. Private citizens are not involved in counter-terrorism investigations. Private citizens would not know how often data off this sort is used responsibly and effectively.

I don't doubt the ability for sophisticated Intelligence agencies to collect just about anything on a targeted device, but this does not mean I should trust them about what they find on other's devices.

Sure, you're not involved. You don't know. The choice to assume that the information cannot be trusted is fallacious because the only information your receiving is from those who are harsh critics. Professionals in the field do not advertise their successes to the public.

Given that this decision affects the lives of millions of people,

It doesn't effect them negatively. It's a benefit. UNRWA does not value life. It loves death and teaches/trains / brainwashes their children to love death.

Earlier in the thread I posted a screenshot from an interview with a UNRWA student confirming that he has been taught he MUST sacrifice himself. The UNRWA reduces the life span of Palestinains.

Regarding distribution of food and humanitarian aid, UNRWA has setup artificial bottlenecks in the system. Israel has increased their human resources at the border. They have invested in increasing the efficiency of the security scans of the cargo. I think it takes them approx 9 minutes to clear each truck. That's impressive. Then the aid sat and waited for UNRWA employees who had not increased their working hours. That's because UNRWA wants there to be a humanitarian crisis so that they can point at israel and win the PR battle. They actually want their own people to remain on the brink of dehydration and starvation so that they have ample propaganda to to drop in to feed to the sympathetic over-seas echo-chamber.

Hopefully you recall I have been tracking the humanitarian aid on a daily basis. The data shows that the number of trucks distributing aid to the Palestinians is not decreasing as a result of UNRWA losing funding. That's probably because they are not actually involved in the distribution as much as they claim. There really is NO good reason to continue to support this organization. They should be fired and replaced



I expect my country to consider the evidence rather than tailing the UK or US who have pretty poor histories of jumping into political and military decisions without knowing what they are getting into.
 

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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
But more innocent palestinians have been killed in the last 4 months than all of the israelis combined over the last 70 yrs.

If they insist on martyring themselves, there is very little to be done to prevent it.

It's suicide by IDF; just like the school shooters here in America. They want to die... at the hand of the Jews.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Bthoth,

Here ya go... they want to be killed by the Jews. That's why the martyr declarations often end with an assertion: "He received what he wanted" death at the hand of a Jew. This is from Al-Aqsa TV in 2018. What do they want? Reward. Double reward.

The israelis want peace, and a good life for everyone involved. That's it. The enemies of israel want death for themselves and others. The simple truth is, winning a war against this sort of enemy requires convincing the enemy that it is a mistake to ever attack ever again. That's any war. That's every war.


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And then there's this little gem:

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This is what motivates them. The reward for killing and for being killed. They LOVE death. So counting bodies is meaningless. Just as meaningless as your statements in favor of those whom you imagine are "Jews".
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't really understand why that is an argument against the charge of Apartheid.
The SADF surely had that many non-whites in it's military, and it was about half the size of the IDF today during the mid 80s.

That was just one example as there had been Palestinians living in Gaza that would work in nearby kibbutzim, one of which I was on in 1998. However, even there security was a problem, and some kibbutzim hired Thais.

This element of distrust between the two just didn't happen as in 1998, for example, Israel was attack on numerous fronts. Numerous other excursions mean to kill were conducted by various groups after that.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
If they insist on martyring themselves, there is very little to be done to prevent it.

It's suicide by IDF; just like the school shooters here in America. They want to die... at the hand of the Jews.
Are you literally saying that the 30,000 or so Palestinian civilians are seriously all deliberately martyring themselves?

I mean... Seriously. There's pro-genocide rhetoric, and then there is explicitly blaming people for their own genocide.

This is just absolutely indefensible rhetoric.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Are you literally saying that the 30,000 or so Palestinian civilians are seriously all deliberately martyring themselves?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I mean... Seriously. There's pro-genocide rhetoric, and then there is explicitly blaming people for their own genocide.

It's acknowledging suicide and suicidal tendencies. It's not a genocide unless it's intentional. What's happening is not intentional by israel. To the contrary I think I posted it in this thread? Maybe not. Hamas is on camera admitting their intention is to put more innocent people in harm's way so they can martyr themselves. The Hamas leader says the "Gazans are not complaining" about their suicide. So yes, Hamas is to blame for the innocents who have chosen to remain standing proudly defiant of airstrikes in their neighborhoods, and proudly starving to death and dehydrating instead of doing what the vast majority did. The UNRWA preaches and teaches this; their religious leaders preach and teach this; their political leaders preach and teach this.

It is blaming those who desire death with their own suicide. Viewing the Islamic world through a western prism is fallacious. They have different values. They're a different culture.

And for those obsessing over body counts: 30,000/2,000,000 is not genocide. At best there is potential for genocide, but israel does not need to change anything about their operations. They simply need to increase reporting, which was already in process prior to the ICJ hearing.

This is just absolutely indefensible rhetoric.

It is what it is. The vast majority who left the warzone are alive. They have access to food, water, shelter, medical care BECAUSE of israel. Those who chose to stay in warzone for their own pride and dignity and chose to keep their children in the warzone so that their own children would become martyrs are in large part intentionally putting themselves at risk.

And this ignores the assumption that all those who have died are innocent. It also ignores that the body count is coming from Hamas.

Even if all 30,000 were innocent, it's still better than a ground invasion which avoids air strikes. The Palestinians would have risen up to fight the infidels and been slaughtered. It would have an *actual* genocide. It's far better to save 1.8 million Gazans even if 30,000 lose their lives.

It's better to let them know air strikes are coming then follow through on that directive. Then the majority of people leave and live. The alternative is worse for almost everyone except the violent extremists who attack then run for cover and hide behind the sympathies of ignorant western fools. It's also better for the Palestinians in their culture who literally love death and are seeking a great reward for killing themselves and others.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's not a genocide until it's... over?
Not the line of argument I would take.
He ignores the part of the 1948 definition of "genocide"
that includes expulsion. Israel does this, not just by
reducing their property to rubble, but by planning
to send the survivors to Africa.
 
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