Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Perhaps there is no proof or even good evidence that God exists because no God exists, that is one possibility, but if you are saying that God does not exist because there is no proof that God exists (the proposition God exists is false because it has not yet been proven true), that is fallacious because it is an argument from ignorance.

I have never said that no gods exist, only that I don't know of any gods and therefore believe in none.

I believe there is enough evidence to believe that God exists is true.

No evidence is needed to belief in gods or anything else for those who use faith to support their beliefs. Evidence is only necessary for those who prefer justified beliefs.

That is why we should have sufficient evidence, not only faith.

With sufficient evidence, there is no need for faith. If a belief requires faith to hold, then whatever is being called evidence isn't sufficient to justify belief.

I'll second that since my late husband had severe asthma, for which he was hospitalized on more than one occasion. The first thing they did in the hospital was put him on a nebulizer machine, although I do not recall him ever needing intravenous bronchodilators. After several hospitalizations the doctor ordered nebulizer machines for him to have at home and at work.

His asthma was never reversed, only treated with various medications that kept him alive.

Thanks for that. Yes, severe asthma is never instantly cured by prayer.

 

[jimb]

No, that is not a contradiction. One should have evidence to believe in God, but they also need faith, since nobody can see God.

No, that is not a contradiction.

I said: Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, but there is no way to verify that God exists, so there is no verifiable evidence, which is the kind of evidence that atheists want.

We cannot see God with our eyes or hear God with our ears, so we cannot 'verify' that God exists.

Faith is needed for what we cannot verify. We cannot verify God so we need faith in order to believe that God exists.

"and..."

Physical evidence is the opposite of faith.

Your last sentence contradicts your first sentence.

 

[jimb]

I'd say that the opposite is more correct. If you CAN'T see the falsehoods and contradictions, then you aren't reading the words dispssionately and open-mindedly. They're very easy for disinterested readers to see.

Most Christians see their religion as a force for good and its ethical precepts exemplary. Most atheistic humanists and all antitheists disagree. Once again, we have no reason to expect a man to see what he has a stake in NOT seeing.

What makes her comment hateful? That she doesn't respect Christian doctrine? That she considers it harmful? That she expressed such things hyperbolically. She might be right, but for me, it's enough to say that this religion has done much more harm than good and is a net burden on the world. Should I put myself on ignore now?

I would admonish you to take heed of the kind of feedback you're getting. I don't expect you to change your opinions, but if you get tired of so much rebuking and blowback coming from so many sources, maybe you should reconsider what you share and how you share it.

I'll be you're the first person ever to put her on ignore. Ask yourself why you are so offended by her comment that you unwilling to read any others from her, and why you announced it.

Evidence IS required to have justified belief (knowledge).

Yes, but beliefs are either the product of one or the other, not both at the same time regarding the same belief. All beliefs are either justified by the standards of critical thought and the evaluation of evidence, or they are believed by faith, and n belief is both or neither.

I know exactly what faith is. It's the willingness to believe as true that which is not known as true.

No, but I don't believe that you are correct. I think you're unwittingly exaggerating what happened to you.

That's not surprising. It's also what I just told you about what you think you experienced and learned in a hospital during an asthma attack.

But you should care about what I have experienced and think I know about asthma. I completed a career in internal medicine, and managed dozens if not hundreds of admissions for "status asthmaticus": https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22794687/#:~:text=Abstract,requires immediate recognition and treatment.

I understand you completely. I just think you're wrong about what happened.

You are intellectually blind.

Gods don't become real because you believe in them.

Clearly you don't understand that the Bible is filled with spiritual truths. I'd say that the opposite is more correct.

"Most Christians see their religion as a force for good and its ethical precepts exemplary. Most atheistic humanists and all antitheists disagree." So, atheistic humanists and all antitheists and in favor of evil and unethical precepts?

You: "Evidence IS required to have justified belief (knowledge)", then you contradict yourself and write "I know exactly what faith is. It's the willingness to believe as true that which is not known as true." God's word says: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1 I believe the words of God, not your contradictory words.

And then you write, "All beliefs are either justified by the standards of critical thought and the evaluation of evidence, or they are believed by faith, and belief is both or neither." That is a clear contradiction and a clear demonstration of your lack of understanding.

"I think you're unwittingly exaggerating what happened to you". That's a subtle way of calling me a liar! I don't care if you believe me or not!

It's irrelevant if you think I'm intellectually blind! I used to have the same opinion of Christians until God revealed Himself to me.

"Gods don't become real because you believe in them" shows your complete lack of understanding of faith. When God reveals Himself to you (if He ever does), then you will change your tune (as I did many years ago).

"Should I put myself on ignore now?" That's not a bad idea!

 

[jimb]

I'd say that the opposite is more correct. If you CAN'T see the falsehoods and contradictions, then you aren't reading the words dispssionately and open-mindedly. They're very easy for disinterested readers to see.

Most Christians see their religion as a force for good and its ethical precepts exemplary. Most atheistic humanists and all antitheists disagree. Once again, we have no reason to expect a man to see what he has a stake in NOT seeing.

What makes her comment hateful? That she doesn't respect Christian doctrine? That she considers it harmful? That she expressed such things hyperbolically. She might be right, but for me, it's enough to say that this religion has done much more harm than good and is a net burden on the world. Should I put myself on ignore now?

I would admonish you to take heed of the kind of feedback you're getting. I don't expect you to change your opinions, but if you get tired of so much rebuking and blowback coming from so many sources, maybe you should reconsider what you share and how you share it.

I'll be you're the first person ever to put her on ignore. Ask yourself why you are so offended by her comment that you unwilling to read any others from her, and why you announced it.

Evidence IS required to have justified belief (knowledge).

Yes, but beliefs are either the product of one or the other, not both at the same time regarding the same belief. All beliefs are either justified by the standards of critical thought and the evaluation of evidence, or they are believed by faith, and n belief is both or neither.

I know exactly what faith is. It's the willingness to believe as true that which is not known as true.

No, but I don't believe that you are correct. I think you're unwittingly exaggerating what happened to you.

That's not surprising. It's also what I just told you about what you think you experienced and learned in a hospital during an asthma attack.

But you should care about what I have experienced and think I know about asthma. I completed a career in internal medicine, and managed dozens if not hundreds of admissions for "status asthmaticus": https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22794687/#:~:text=Abstract,requires immediate recognition and treatment.

I understand you completely. I just think you're wrong about what happened.

You are intellectually blind.

Gods don't become real because you believe in them.

Clearly you don't understand that the Bible is filled with spiritual truths. I'd say that the opposite is more correct.

"Most Christians see their religion as a force for good and its ethical precepts exemplary. Most atheistic humanists and all antitheists disagree." So, atheistic humanists and all antitheists and in favor of evil and unethical precepts?

You: "Evidence IS required to have justified belief (knowledge)", then you contradict yourself and write "I know exactly what faith is. It's the willingness to believe as true that which is not known as true." God's word says: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1 I believe the words of God, not your contradictory words.

And then you write, "All beliefs are either justified by the standards of critical thought and the evaluation of evidence, or they are believed by faith, and belief is both or neither." That is a clear contradiction and a clear demonstration of your lack of understanding.

"I think you're unwittingly exaggerating what happened to you". That's a subtle way of calling me a liar! I don't care if you believe me or not!

It's irrelevant if you think I'm intellectually blind! I used to have the same opinion of Christians until God revealed Himself to me.

"Gods don't become real because you believe in them" shows your complete lack of understanding of faith. When God reveals Himself to you (if He ever does), then you will change your tune (as I did many years ago).

"Should I put myself on ignore now?" That's not a bad idea!

 

[Trailblazer]

"and..."

Physical evidence is the opposite of faith.

Your last sentence contradicts your first sentence.

First sentence: No, that is not a contradiction. One should have evidence to believe in God, but they also need faith, since nobody can see God.
Last sentence: Faith is needed for what we cannot verify. We cannot verify God so we need faith in order to believe that God exists.

In my first sentence I was not talking about physical evidence for God. There is no such evidence.
That is why in my last sentence I said we cannot verify God.
All we have as evidence for God are the Messengers of God. We can believe they were sent by God, but we cannot verify (prove) that.

 

[Trailblazer]

With sufficient evidence, there is no need for faith.

If you mean verifiable evidence, there is no verifiable evidence for God, which is why we need faith.

 

[jimb]

First sentence: No, that is not a contradiction. One should have evidence to believe in God, but they also need faith, since nobody can see God.
Last sentence: Faith is needed for what we cannot verify. We cannot verify God so we need faith in order to believe that God exists.

In my first sentence I was not talking about physical evidence for God. There is no such evidence.
That is why in my last sentence I said we cannot verify God.
All we have as evidence for God are the Messengers of God. We can believe they were sent by God, but we cannot verify (prove) that.

Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see."

Hebrews 11:6, "Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

Evidence is a legal term that has nothing to do with faith. I know that God exists. (That is not belief, that is knowledge)

Nobody has seen God? "If you have known me, you will know my Father too. And from now on you do know him and have seen him.”

 

[jimb]

If you mean verifiable evidence, there is no verifiable evidence for God, which is why we need faith.

See my post immediately above this one. Again, I KNOW THAT GOD EXISTS"

It makes me sad that your faith (or lack of it) is so weak. GOD IS REAL!!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Evidence is a legal term that has nothing to do with faith. I know that God exists. (That is not belief, that is knowledge)

You know that God exists by faith and so do I, but that is not the same as factual knowledge which is provable.

Nobody has seen God? "If you have known me, you will know my Father too. And from now on you do know him and have seen him.”

They have seen the image of God, not God. An image is not that which it reflects.

Colossians 1

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Nobody has ever seen God.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

See my post immediately above this one. Again, I KNOW THAT GOD EXISTS"

See my post above this one.
I also know that God exists.

 

[jimb]

You know that God exists by faith and so do I, but that is not the same as factual knowledge which is provable.

They have seen the image of God, not God. An image is not that which it reflects.

Colossians 1

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Nobody has ever seen God.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

You quote John 1:18, but you need to understand it in context. "No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known." This clearly means that no one has ever seen God the Father, but they have seen God the Son! See this ->

John 10:38, "But if I do them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may come to know and understand that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.”

John 14:10-11, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds."

Clearly, IF THEY HAVE SEEN JESUS, THEY HAVE SEEN GOD!

 

[Trailblazer]

You quote John 1:18, but you need to understand it in context. "No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known." This clearly means that no one has ever seen God the Father, but they have seen God the Son! See this ->

There is no such thing as God the Father and God the Son. There is only God the Father.
The Son is not the Father.

The following translations of john 1:18 have been altered by Trinitarian Christians in order to make Jesus into God.
This is despicable, not to mention completely illogical!

John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CSB No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.

ERV No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.

CEV No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.

NET No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

NIV No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

NLT No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

By altering the translations, the verse ends up making no logical sense at all.
Jesus was either the Son of God or He was the Father (God). Jesus cannot be both the Son and the Father. That is logically contradictory.

The following translations of John 1:18 are correct.
In short, no one has ever seen God, but Jesus, who was the Son of God, has declared God and made God known. Jesus has shown is what God is like.

John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Clearly, IF THEY HAVE SEEN JESUS, THEY HAVE SEEN GOD!

Clearly, if they have seen Jesus they have seen a Manifestation of God.

A Manifestation of God is not an ordinary man. Manifestations of God have a twofold nature: one is the physical nature pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual nature, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine nature that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Jesus manifested certain Attributes of God such as Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, and Patient, to name a few.

However, certain Attributes are unique to God. Only God is Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes, and that means Jesus was not God.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So, atheistic humanists and all antitheists and in favor of evil and unethical precepts?

Atheistic humanists are people with no god belief who believe that knowledge comes from reason applied to evidence, and that a healthy conscience and empathy (Golden Rule) are his guide to moral behavior.

Antitheists are people who consider some aspect of religious belief or organized religion harmful and wish to see that modified. In that sense, they object to evil and unethical precepts, such as what the Christians are doing to American women and to LGBTQ+. That needs to stop. That's "evil" (maliciously destructive). That's unethical by humanist standards.

Others who agree with me are also antitheistic to some degree. None of us seek to have religion eliminated. We just want the faithful to apply their religious beliefs to themselves and not impose them on unwilling others. I think most American women and LGBTQ+ would agree with me that they want this unwelcome intrusion into their lives eliminated. If so, to that extent at least, they are antitheistic.

And then you write, "All beliefs are either justified by the standards of critical thought and the evaluation of evidence, or they are believed by faith, and belief is both or neither." That is a clear contradiction

It wouldn't be had you not modified it. Here's the original: "All beliefs are either justified by the standards of critical thought and the evaluation of evidence, or they are believed by faith, and n belief is both or neither." (emphasis on the removed typo added).

Clearly you don't understand that the Bible is filled with spiritual truths. I'd say that the opposite is more correct.

Now THAT's what a contradiction looks like. You made a statement and immediately contradicted yourself when you affirmed the opposite of your first sentence with your second.

That's a subtle way of calling me a liar! I don't care if you believe me or not!

You're gaslighting now, which is a form of lying, but I hadn't accused you of that until now. Regarding what you do or don't care about, you emboldened one of those sentences and put exclamation marks after both and belies your claim that you don't care.

But regarding my estimation of what really happened in that hospital, if you want to understand those words as calling you a liar despite my specifically denied thinking that the first time you complained of that, that's YOU calling ME a liar. And unlike you, I don't mind. The words speak for themselves:

You: "I went to the hospital because of a severe asthma attack. AT THE TIME I WAS A CONFIRMED ATHEIST! A pastor prayed for me and I was a) instantly healed"

Me: "I don't believe that you had asthma severe enough to hospitalize you that was instantly reversed. I'm assuming that you mean admitted as an inpatient for treatment of severe, life-threatening asthma treated with intravenous bronchodilators like aminophylline and not just observed in an ER or getting only medicated mist inhalation therapy. Such a person will remit quickly with minimal intervention at times with or without prayers, but not somebody with severe respiratory distress and significantly reduced blood oxygen levels."

You: "So, you think that I'm lying???"

Me: "No, but I don't believe that you are correct. I think you're unwittingly exaggerating what happened to you"

"Gods don't become real because you believe in them" shows your complete lack of understanding of faith.

My comment is correct. If it weren't, you could falsify it by presenting an example of a god becoming real because some believed it into existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

My comment is correct. If it weren't, you could falsify it by presenting an example of a god becoming real because some believed it into existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've never had a direct interaction with a deity (feeling, seeing, hearing, or verbal communication).

and you never will, because God doesn't communicate directly with anyone except His Messengers, and even then it is through the Holy Spirit, not directly.
(e.g. Moses at the burning bush was God speaking to Moses through the Holy Spirit).

 

[jimb]

There is no such thing as God the Father and God the Son. There is only God the Father.
The Son is not the Father.

The following translations of john 1:18 have been altered by Trinitarian Christians in order to make Jesus into God.
This is despicable, nit to mention completely illogical!

John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CSB No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.

ERV No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.

CEV No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.

NET No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

NIV No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

NLT No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

By altering the translations, the verse ends up making no logical sense at all.
Jesus was either the Son of God or He was the Father (God). Jesus cannot be both the Son and the Father. That is logically contradictory.

The following translations of John 1:18 are correct.
In short, no one has ever seen God, but Jesus, who was the Son of God, has declared God and made God known. Jesus has shown is what God is like.

John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
on Bible translation, Bible history, etc.
NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

I didn't realize that you are such an authority on Bible translation! How long have you studied ancient, Hebrew, and Koine Greek? Which source documents have you used? Which ones did you find reliable and which ones not? Please list your experience as a Bible translator and/or your participation on any editorial committees?

Please a) list your qualifications (in detail) or b) admit that you are just inventing ideas (without proof or justification). Thank you in advance for your reply.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't realize that you are such an authority on Bible translation! How long have you studied ancient, Hebrew, and Koine Greek? Which source documents have you used? Which ones did you find reliable and which ones not? Please list your experience as a Bible translator and/or your participation on any editorial committees?

Please a) list your qualifications (in detail) or b) admit that you are just inventing ideas (without proof or justification). Thank you in advance for your reply.

Now you are deflecting...
I never claimed to be an authority on Bible translation.

Are you? If so, please a) list your qualifications (in detail) or b) admit that you are just inventing ideas (without proof or justification). Thank you in advance for your reply.

 

[jimb]

Clearly, if they have seen Jesus they have seen a Manifestation of God.

A Manifestation of God is not an ordinary man. Manifestations of God have a twofold nature: one is the physical nature pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual nature, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine nature that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Jesus manifested certain Attributes of God such as Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, and Patient, to name a few.

However, certain Attributes are unique to God. Only God is Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes, and that means Jesus was not God.

John 1:1-4, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it."

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

and you never will, because God doesn't communicate directly with anyone except His Messengers, and even then it is through the Holy Spirit, not directly.
(e.g. Moses at the burning bush was God speaking to Moses through the Holy Spirit).

My Christian indoctrination included being taught that I, and other Christians, could have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and always sense God's presence in our lives. However, I never felt anything like that other than having my emotions manipulated while in church, but the sensation quickly faded.