Types of Muslim

[Mr Spinkles]

Okay, please explain.

 

[maro]

The idea no nonbelievers have admirable qualities, or that admirable "ideas" cannot exist independently of Islam/religious belief, is just very, very naive.

Spinkles...the word 'kufr' means 'disbelief' and not 'disbelievers'....abu khaled was categorizing the types of disbelief

Of course ,disbelievers can have plenty of positive qualties...but disbelief is not one of them (from an islamic perspective ).

 

[Sahar]

Kufr is the greatest sin, this is true but this doesn't mean that the person who is kafir (disbeliever) has no good inside him or has no good morals or manners. There are many disbelievers who are kind, just, generous, honest...etc. And if they had good manners and character and we acknowledged this, it doesn't mean that we agree with their kufr or disbelief, we will hate this in them but we won't hate them for sure.

 

[Sahar]

If my parents were disbelievers, so would that mean they are disgusting creatures who are filled with all the nasty qualities and are not my parents anymore?! On the contrary, I will love them and treat them in the best manners as I should.

 

[kai]

Spinkles...the word 'kufr' means 'disbelief' and not 'disbelievers'

....abu khaled was categorizing the types of disbelief

Of course ,disbelievers can have plenty of positive qualties...but disbelief is not one of them (from an islamic perspective ).

and yet after each category he wrote--This applies to someone who

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Okay maro but there are two problems with this:

First, AbuKhalid's OP clearly refers in many instances to people, i.e. "disbelievers", who by his definition "cov er up or hide realities". You can say he intended it to be about "disbelief" not "disbelievers" but these two things are completely entangled in his OP.

Second, it's all negative and it's all about personal qualities. If disbelief is out of "arrogance and pride" this clearly is implying something about the disbeliever. If " They denied them (OUR SIGNS) even though their hearts believed in them , out of spite and arrogance." clearly "they" refers to someone. There is no mention that "they" might simply not believe, or have honest doubts, in both word and at heart, based on their best judgment and their open quest for the facts. No, this is apparently an unthinkable possibility...disbelief must be due to hypocrisy, deception, arrogance, pride, hatred, etc.

I thought the clear bias and prejudice in the language would be obvious when the tables were turned in my parody of the OP.....

not4me says only God can judge what is in peoples' hearts, but having a dishonest heart, or contradicting one's own heart, are possible "types of kufr" while having an honest or self-consistent heart, or broad knowledge or an independent personality that questions authority and custom, this is not one of the possible types, according to AbuKhalid's list.

 

[AbuKhalid]

The point of this thread is to parody AbuKhalid's absurd thread on "Types of Kufr". He explicitly told me there is no such thing as an admirable Kufr in the world, that is why none of the 10 types of Kufr contain admirable qualities. That is why nothing on his list talks about the "Type of Kufr" that loves science, has read or traveled widely, cares about human rights, etc.

You clearly misunderstood me Mr Sprinkles. Kufr is disbelief and as a Muslim there is nothing admirable in this. I never said that there was nothing admirable about those who have kufr. It is only the their disbelief in Allah which is not admirable. Other aspects of their life might be very admirable.

Also the types of kufr I listed where only major kufr, there is minor kufr as well, though again I will assert that there is nothing desirable about any Kufr.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

If my parents were disbelievers, so would that mean they are disgusting creatures who are filled with all the nasty qualities and are not my parents anymore?! On the contrary, I will love them and treat them in the best manners as I should.

Okay. And that's exactly the same spirit in which my OP was written (if we pretend I was being serious, for a moment). Is the only thing wrong with my OP the technicalities of semantics you pointed out? Is that really the only thing worth criticizing in my OP?

 

[Sahar]

Okay. And that's exactly the same spirit in which my OP was written (if we pretend I was being serious, for a moment). Is the only thing wrong with my OP the technicalities of semantics you pointed out? Is that really the only thing worth criticizing in my OP?

If after the modifications - as I object to using the word "Muslim"- I would disagree of course. Just like you naturally disagree with our view of kufr, I don't expect you to view disbelief negatively like we do.

Is there anything new about this?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You clearly misunderstood me Mr Sprinkles. Kufr is disbelief and as a Muslim there is nothing admirable in this. I never said that there was nothing admirable about those who have kufr. It is only the their disbelief in Allah which is not admirable. Other aspects of their life might be very admirable.

What sort of word game is this? I suppose I have misunderstood you, but let's review what you said:

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]The Qu'ran uses the word Kufr to denote people who cover up or hide realities[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica].
...
[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Disbelief out of stubborness. This applies to someone who knows the truth and admits to knowing the truth and admits to knowing it with his tongue, but refuses to accept it and refrains from making a declaration. Allah(swt) says: Throw into Hell every stubborn disbeliever [Surah Qaaf (50), Ayah 24] [/FONT]
...
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Disbebelief out of rejection. This applies to someone who aknowledges the truth in his heart, but rejects it with his tongue.[/FONT]
...
So anyone who does not believe in Allah is guilty of kufr (covering up the reality of the existence of Allah).
​

...etc. [emphasis added] You say it's not about disbelievers but clearly everything you said about disbelief is entangled with the people who disbelieve.

And notice disbelief is always about "covering up" "denying" and being a "hypocrite", these are all active verbs and they all imply something negative, this is all very convenient for your ideology.

But many people disbelieve because of questioning, thinking, learning, belief in science, studying lots of different religions and philosophies, etc. These are active verbs but they are positive or at least neutral. Some disbelieve for scientific reasons, some for moral reasons, some because of experience, some because of historical evidence. Some disbelieve because they find traditional religions unfulfilling. Some disbelieve because they find fulfillment and truth in Buddhism, Communism, secular philosophy, etc. Some people disbelieve not because they "deny" Allah in some active sense, but because they are simply not convinced or impressed by your religion. All this is completely lacking in your list.

Essentially, your OP i.m.o. neglects this concept: that a person can genuinely disagree with you for what would otherwise be good reasons. This neglect should be obvious to you if you read my OP, and ask yourself why my OP is flawed (and of course it is intentionally flawed).

If you really want to know about types of disbelief you could look at the Atheism DIR forum, we talk about skepticism, agnosticism, strong vs. weak atheist, science, life experiences, where we find fulfillment/ethics/meaning, etc.

 

[Sahar]

Any person received the message of Islam and rejected it is a kafir. Some people don't know something called Islam in the first place and to other people, Islam might reach them in a distorted way and someone might search for the truth and try his best but wasn't guided to Islam, all those people are not kuffar (the plural of kafir) to Allah i.e. will not be judged in the hereafter as kuffar, Allah is the Just. But in this life, since we don't know everyone's circumstances and what lie in their hearts, any non-Muslim is considered a kafir and according to this they can't marry Muslims......Muslims won't pray on them when they die...etc.
I wrote the above before.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

If after the modifications - as I object to using the word "Muslim"- I would disagree of course. Just like you naturally disagree with our view of kufr, I don't expect you to view disbelief negatively like we do.

Is there anything new about this?

Yes we disagree but I don't think you by definition are "covering up" the truth, that your belief is due to either "mockery", or "pride", or "arrogance", or "denying" what you know to be true in your heart, and so on. It would be easy for me to dismiss your arguments, and not truly consider them, if I automatically assumed belief can only take those limited forms. Surely you see this?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

But in this life, since we don't know everyone's circumstances and what lie in their hearts, ...

If you really mean "I don't know what's in your heart" then honesty and other good qualities would be listed as possible "types" of kufr, along with the bad qualities (hypocrisy, hatred, etc.) Otherwise, what you really mean is "I don't know what BAD thing is in your heart [kufr], but I know it's a bad thing". So you sort of do know their heart in the meaningful sense, you just don't know specifically if it is hypocrisy, hatred, mockery, etc. that is in their heart.

 

[Sahar]

Yes we disagree but I don't think you by definition are "covering up" the truth, that your belief is due to either "mockery", or "pride", or "arrogance", or "denying" what you know to be true in your heart, and so on. It would be easy for me to dismiss your arguments, and not truly consider them, if I automatically assumed belief can only take those limited forms. Surely you see this?

No no, kufr can not be attributed to anything good, if you don't find yourself fall in the category of kufr, you should not be that upset and Allah will judge you not me. There is not good kufr, it doesn't work. Allah will judge everyone according to their circumstances and their hearts if they were kafir or not...I can't judge you or anyone else.

 

[AbuKhalid]

What sort of word game is this? I suppose I have misunderstood you, but let's review what you said:

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]The Qu'ran uses the word Kufr to denote people who cover up or hide realities[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica].[/FONT]​

Kufr is the act of disbelieving. Kuffar are the disbelievers. Kufr (disbelief) is never desirable however the kuffar can have desirable qualities in many aspects but will always have one belief (kufr) that we cant accept.

Take you for example. I totally disagree with your disbelief in Allah (kufr) but I believe you have many other positive qualities.

Are you not mixing up kufr and kuffar?

 

[Sahar]

If you really mean "I don't know what's in your heart" then honesty and other good qualities would be listed as possible "types" of kufr, along with the bad qualities (hypocrisy, hatred, etc.) Otherwise, what you really mean is "I don't know what BAD thing is in your heart [kufr], but I know it's a bad thing". So you sort of do know their heart in the meaningful sense, you just don't know specifically if it is hypocrisy, hatred, mockery, etc. that is in their heart.

No, I can't tell if person x is really kafir to Allah or not but I will treat him in this world as such as I don't know if he is really kafir, or were ignorant of the message...etc.

 

[AbuKhalid]

Mr Sprinkles,

Do you think the belief in Islam is positive? As you are not a Muslim you must think we are mistaken for one reason or another yet I doubt you think all Muslims are undesirable. I think this is exactly the same as our belief as regards to kufr.

As a Muslim I know Allah exists so thus to deny this for any reason is not something I can like.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Do you think the belief in Islam is positive?

In general no, but I think that it's genuine.

As you are not a Muslim you must think we are mistaken for one reason or another yet I doubt you think all Muslims are undesirable. I think this is exactly the same as our belief as regards to kufr.

Fair enough but this is totally not what your OP says. Being mistaken, for example, is not one of the 10 types of kufr on your list.

As a Muslim I know Allah exists so thus to deny this for any reason is not something I can like.

Okay but no one likes hypocrisy, mockery, hatred, etc. I'm not asking you to like atheism, you're moving the goal posts. I'm just telling you it's unfair to define "disbelief" as "covering up realities". Disbelief is disbelief, it does not necessarily mean a person is covering up realities, denying their heart, detesting this or that. I don't have to love Islam or agree with it to understand that belief in Islam is not simply due to hypocrisy, hatred, etc.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, if so I apologize...it is late I should go to bed.

 

[maro]

Okay maro but there are two problems with this:

First, AbuKhalid's OP clearly refers in many instances to people, i.e. "disbelievers", who by his definition "cover up or hide realities". You can say he intended it to be about "disbelief" not "disbelievers" but these two things are completely entangled in his OP.

Second, it's all negative and it's all about personal qualities. If disbelief is out of "arrogance and pride" this clearly is implying something about the disbeliever. If "

They denied them (OUR SIGNS) even though their hearts believed in them , out of spite and arrogance." clearly "they" refers to someone. There is no mention that "they" might simply not believe, or have honest doubts, in both word and at heart, based on their best judgment and their open quest for the facts. No, this is apparently an unthinkable possibility...disbelief must be due to hypocrisy, deception, arrogance, pride, hatred, etc.

For disbelievers to be disbeleievers they must have some of the qualties that enable them to be so...which are all negative ,as we view them.....but this doesn't mean they don't have positive qualties at all

Another thing..is that they might not have those qualities...they might only be misguided..or don't fully understnad.....it's not for us to judge

not4me says only God can judge what is in peoples' hearts, but having a dishonest heart, or contradicting one's own heart, are possible "types of kufr" while having an honest or self-consistent heart, or broad knowledge or an independent personality that questions authority and custom, this is not one of the possible types, according to AbuKhalid's list.

Having an honest ,self consistent heart ,or broad knowledge or an independant personlity that questions authority and custom are all positive qualties that Can exist in a disbeliever....however ,they are not attributed to his disbelief......then why do you expect those qulaities to be considered in the categorization of disbelief ?

As not4me said ,it's not news that we view 'disbelief ' and the qualties attributed to it negatively....as it's also not news for us that you view 'belief' and the qualties attributed to it negatively

You keep calling yourself and other atheists 'free thinkers' and blame us for blindly following the 'dear leader'....you don't consider the possibility that we have done our own free thinking and chose to believe and follow the dear leader....you consider 'disbelief' to be the inevitable result of 'free thinking'....isn't that negative ?

You also consider ' apostasy' to be a form of ' growth and maturation ' (naturally ,you are an atheist )...and accordingly i can assume that you view religious people to be less mature...isn't that negative ?

 

[maro]

In general no, but I think that it's genuine.

Me too , i don't think kufr is positive or can be attributed to anything positive...however ,it can or can't be genuine....an honest humanitarian atheist like you is certainly genuine....other psycho atheists who would like to eradicate all muslims are certainly not genuine