Two approaches towards reforming Islam: the Bahai Faith and Ahmadiyya Islam.

[Dawnofhope]

Probably. I don't think much about that, though. All of my life I thought of myself as a mongrel of sorts, originated in a land that is proud to be anything but well delimited ethnically.

I don't think any amount of awareness will ever make me think of communities as being defined mainly by their ethnic makeup. It is just too odd an idea for me to take at all seriously.

I'm a mongrel too in more ways than one. Education has assisted me rise above my mongrel background.

All humanity is one people regardless of nation, race, ethnicity, socioeconomic background and religion. Anything less is non-negotiable. I live in a multicultural world and married outside the confines of my culture.

The roots of Hinduism are Dharma, therefore I have no idea of what you mean here.

You are probably already aware of the ironic situation that this causes with Buddha, but I guess you can do as you want.

Without doubt, one of the major challenge for the Baha'i worldview are the contradictory beliefs between religions. How do we reconcile the Abrahamic and Dharmic paradigms? How about monotheistic religions compared with the polytheistic leanings of Hinduism and the atheistic leanings of Buddhism? So while I've been exploring Islam, I’m looking forward to considering Buddhism.

Moses probably was an actual person. Jesus, I don't think so. The evidence that I know of strongly hints against it.

But either way, the doctrines are - and should be - greater than their own founders' hypothetical literal existence.

Doctrines being linked to actual historic people who are special in some way are central to the Abrahamic Faiths. It's one of the major differences between the Abrahamic and Dharmic Faiths.

Most historians generally agree that Jesus was a real person.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

What do you mean by Dharma?

Poverty is a scourge, and so is ethnical egocentrism, IMO.

Without doubt.

 

[LuisDantas]

The frequency of intercultural marriages was one of the most beautiful aspects of the Bahais that I met in person.

Although it must be said that it is not particularly noticeable when put against a Brazilian background...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now we have the emergence of another Abrahamic Faith. How can that bring any good for India, whereas Islam and Christianity have wrought so much havoc and destruction for India.

Pests multiply. Spare us. We can do without your monotheistic and divine truth. We have Hinduism and Buddhism.

The most dominant historic character as far as I can discern is Krishna but then a reasonable case could be made that He never existed at all.

Hinduism has just as many fundamentalists and extremists as any other religion as far as I can see.

Krishna is one of the many old stories. Can you support your statement with incidents/figures? Remember, many of the communal disturbances were due to pseudo-secular parties like Congress and an attempt to create fear among Muslims, so that they vote for them. Bhagalpur, Meerut are examples of that. Most disturbances are because of democratic politics.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I know quite a few Indian Fijians. The British took the Indians to Fiji and elsewhere in the sugar diaspora days. (I just learned the other day that the major reason it was Indians, not Africans, was because Indians already knew the ins and outs of growing cane.) The indigenous population felt threatened, no doubt, and the Indians most likely regretted their capture and forced movement. So yes, it was a disliking from the onset. There have been troubles, but for the most part, the locals on both sides keep out of it.

Eventually all the Fijian Indians will leave.

Land, Life and Labour: Indo-Fijian Claims to Citizenship in a Changing Fiji on JSTOR

Many of the Indians I spoke to wanted to leave Fiji and hoped I might be able to help them escape to New Zealand. I don’t recall any of them wanting to return to India.

That being said I’d love to get to India one day myself. I could find out first hand about the numbers of Baha’is lol.

I’m presuming you’ve been to India, right?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Pests multiply. Spare us. We can do without your monotheistic and divine truth. We have Hinduism and Buddhism.

I think I’m becoming accustomed to your flame thrower approach to interfaith dialogue with Abrahamics lol

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is however, an undeniable exclusivity and attitude of superiority, from a sizeable proportion of those who identify themselves as Hindu. I wonder what its like for those who aren't Hindu living in India and how much prejudice exists beneath the outward appearance of tolerance.

We consider the monotheists to be arrogant, denying the freedom of polytheists and free inquiry. Why should we take the word of XYZ as final? To us, that seems foolishness. Hindus just cannot abandon questioning.

If you mean it doesn't really matter much as to what the scientific or archaeological evidence can tell us about these characters, then I agree with you.

As Luis said, historicity of Krishna is not a must for Hinduism. What if the stories were written to illustrate situations in life and how one should react to them? That the Krishna story is old is undisputed. It is a pre-Aryan folk tale (2,000 BCE), just like the Rama and other stories. Perhaps that was the way our people instructed on ethics and morals.

During my three months in Fiji it became apparent how poorly many of the Indians (45% of the population) had really integrated with their Indigenous Fijian countryman (just over 50%). Intermarriage after 4 - 5 generations was uncommon. The Indians often kept to themselves and viewed the Indigenous Fijian's as lazy and uncivilised.

Why is integration and loss of one's culture and identity necessary? Why can't people adjust with a different culture in their midst? Hindus have always done so. Perhaps the Fijians are that way. They did usurp the rights of a part of their population by military action. Do you approve of that?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I quite agree. I am curious about that myself.

For Vaishnavas, Krishna and every story about him is true and historical. Don't we have Mathura, Vrindavana and Dwarika temples to prove that, even Nandagram, Barsana (first where Krishna grew up and second where Srimati Radharani hailed from) and the Govardhana mountain too. And so are all other places mentioned in Srimad Bhagawat Purana, except for the vanishing point of River Saraswati - Vinashan. I have not been able to find that.

Barsana, Mathura, Vrindavana, Dwarika, Govardhana mountain, Nandagram

I think I’m becoming accustomed to your flame thrower approach to interfaith dialogue with Abrahamics lol

Yeah, every one has his/her own style. My style is like showing fangs and not really bite.
It probably started with Zoroaster (or Akhenaten), and see how many sons, prophets, messengers, manifestations and Mahdis cropped up in history and still continue to do so (check in Wikipedia for prophet/Jesus/mahdi/messenger/manifestation claimants). Every Tom, Dick and Harry is one or the other.

What do you mean by Dharma?

The technical definition of Dharma is "Dharayet iti Dharma" (What SHOULD be adopted/done is 'Dharma'). It means fulfilling your duties towards family, society, country and humanity as a whole and engaging in righteous action which benefit others and harm none - (Paropakāram Punyaya, pāpāya para pīdanam - Helping others is merit, causing pain to others is sin). The whole Hindu edifice is built on this. It is more important than the worship of any God/Gods. It will not blame me for being an atheist (or for that matter, Zoroastrian, Jew, Christian, LDS, Muslim, Bahai, Ahmadiyya, etc) but it will blame me for transgressing 'Dharma'.

 

[Dawnofhope]

We can do without your monotheistic and divine truth. We have Hinduism and Buddhism.

I don’t know if you can though. Hinduism is an ancient religion with much beauty and truth, but appears to struggle for relevance in the modern world that’s become increasingly multicultural.

Has Hinduism become politicised by worldly people with their narrow agendas? With all the mythology and superstition can it meet the needs of your people heading through the 21st century. Maybe you see it all too clearly and that’s why you have become an atheist. All those gods that your countrymen talk to are not real and therefore don’t listen to anyone.

Hinduism is a religion that is fascinating to study and learn from but for most Westerners, it’s clearly not going to meet their needs personally or those of their peoples. That’s the most likely reason Hinduism remains a largely indigenous religion.

Krishna is one of the many old stories. Can you support your statement with incidents/figures?

As I understand it Vaishnavites make by the majority of Hindus but the boundaries between traditions are blurred unlike religious sects in the West.

There is no data available on demographic history or trends for Vaishnavism or other traditions within Hinduism.[280] Estimates vary on the relative number of adherents in Vaishnavism compared to other traditions of Hinduism. Klaus Klostermaier and other scholars estimate Vaishnavism to be the largest.[281][282] According to a 2010 estimate by Johnson and Grim, the Vaishnavism tradition is the largest group with about 641 million or 67.6% of Hindus.[283] In contrast, Jones and Ryan estimate Vaishnavism to have perhaps 200 million followers, and it being the second largest tradition of Hinduism after Shaivism.[93] The denominations of Hinduism, states Julius Lipner, are unlike those found in major religions of the world, because Hindu denominations are fuzzy, individuals revere gods and goddesses polycentrically, with many Vaishnava adherents recognizing Sri (Lakshmi), Shiva, Parvati and others reverentially on festivals and other occasions. Similarly, Shaiva, Shakta and Smarta Hindus revere Vishnu.[284][285]

Vaishnavism - Wikipedia

Remember, many of the communal disturbances were due to pseudo-secular parties like Congress and an attempt to create fear among Muslims, so that they vote for them. Bhagalpur, Meerut are examples of that. Most disturbances are because of democratic politics.

It appears that India has had a great deal of time under the rule of others. Are Indians a more peaceful people that others? Certainly a dark side of human nature reared it’s head during the partition of India.

 

[Marcion]

I don’t know if you can though. Hinduism is an ancient religion with much beauty and truth, but appears to struggle for relevance in the modern world that’s become increasingly multicultural.

In the West many people are now doing meditation and/or yoga so although there is no such thing as a hindu religion, the essence of the teachings are more popular than ever and christian churches over here are closing ever faster.
In my city only a few percent of the inhabitants go to church, by far more people are doing some type of meditation technique or yoga that originated in India.
Hardly anyone feels attracted to Islam or other monotheistic religions, they are seen as too narrow-minded and ineffective.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but appears to struggle for relevance in the modern world that’s become increasingly multicultural.

With all the mythology and superstition can it meet the needs of your people heading through the 21st century. Maybe you see it all too clearly and that’s why you have become an atheist. All those gods that your countrymen talk to are not real and therefore don’t listen to anyone.

Hinduism is a religion that is fascinating to study and learn from but for most Westerners, it’s clearly not going to meet their needs personally or those of their peoples. That’s the most likely reason Hinduism remains a largely indigenous religion.

Are Indians a more peaceful people that others? Certainly a dark side of human nature reared it’s head during the partition of India.

Well, best wishes for the world. We will go our way and take the changes as they come in time.

We seem to be doing nicely. As for superstition, you should not be talking about it. You think that there is God and he sent some people with messages. Whether the Gods are real or imaginary, some people are comforted by the idea. We have no problem with that.

In what way and where, Hinduism is not fulfilling our needs? Anything wrong with being an indigenous religion?

No one ever has a count and I doubt the statement. There are so many sects in Hinduism. As for respecting Vishnu, Rama, Krishna and Buddha (who is an avatara for us), all Hindus irrespective of their denomination, do that.

Except for Muslims, Hindus are just as peaceful or volatile as people in any other religion. What reaction would you expect when thousands upon thousands Hindus and Sikhs were being killed in Pakistan? We did not want a partition, even many Muslims did not want that. And millions stayed back in India. That is why they are 175 million strong today.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In the West many people are now doing meditation and/or yoga so although there is no such thing as a hindu religion, the essence of the teachings are more popular than ever and christian churches over here are closing ever faster.
In my city only a few percent of the inhabitants go to church, by far more people are doing some type of meditation technique or yoga that originated in India.
Hardly anyone feels attracted to Islam or other monotheistic religions, they are seen as too narrow-minded and ineffective.

There’s no doubt about the value of meditation. Its been incorporated into psychology therapies in the West, particularly mindfulness therapy. I don’t think it’s a uniquely Hindu practice and has been part of the mystical sects of Islam and Christianity.

I think the appeal of Hinduism and Buddhism in the West is a genuine search for spirituality and meaning for many sincere people who have found Christianity no longer fulfils their needs or they have become disaffected. There is a certain exotic appeal of the unknown. Within Dharmic traditions there is a wealth of material for the spiritual, moral and intellectual advancement of us all. That is undeniable.

However it appears an enormous loss, if we are unable to appreciate the beauty and richness of our own spiritual traditions or never reconnect with it. There’s a degree of idealism when we fail to see that the ancient values and beliefs of the East have similar limitations to those from the West.

 

[Marcion]

There’s no doubt about the value of meditation. Its been incorporated into psychology therapies in the West, particularly mindfulness therapy. I don’t think it’s a uniquely Hindu practice and has been part of the mystical sects of Islam and Christianity.

I think the appeal of Hinduism and Buddhism in the West is a genuine search for spirituality and meaning for many sincere people who have found Christianity no longer fulfils their needs or they have become disaffected. There is a certain exotic appeal of the unknown. Within Dharmic traditions there is a wealth of material for the spiritual, moral and intellectual advancement of us all. That is undeniable.

However it appears an enormous loss, if we are unable to appreciate the beauty and richness of our own spiritual traditions or never reconnect with it. There’s a degree of idealism when we fail to see that the ancient values and beliefs of the East have similar limitations to those from the West.

You are correct that tantric-yogic meditation techniques are not uniquely Hindu, they are also found in Jainism and Buddhism and in a slightly more distorted way in Taoism. There is nothing exotic about them, rather they are easily understood in a rational or scientific way. Of course there are parallel mystic practices in traditions further away from India, but they are often much less well developed. So the tantric-yogic techniques even in their adjusted form (as in mindfulness) are very universal and have nothing to do with geo-sentiment.

You are right that it has been an enormous cultural loss that the West was cut off from its religious roots when it adopted Christianity and Islam. India did not cut itself off from its polytheistic past in that same way although in practice it also distanced itself from those more primitive beginnings when the gods were still asociated with the unpredictable forces of nature.

The historical teachings of Jesus are also tantric-mystic (not western) in nature, but play a very minor and surpressed role in official Christianity which does not help to keep people centered on Jesus as a teacher who could be useful enough for personal spiritual progress.
In spiritual life there should preferably not be any 'geo-sentiment'. A spiritual truth, advise or teaching is not better or worse because the teacher originated closer or further away from your own place of birth.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don’t know if you can though. Hinduism is an ancient religion with much beauty and truth, but appears to struggle for relevance in the modern world that’s become increasingly multicultural.

Hinduism is worlds ahead of any Abrahamic Faith where relevance to multicultural environments is a concern. From all appearances, it always was and likely will ever be.

The only reason why it could possibly appear otherwise that I can think is that it does not have much in the way of predatory proselitism.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hardly anyone feels attracted to Islam or other monotheistic religions, they are seen as too narrow-minded and ineffective.

Proselitist monotheism has been so disastrous to religion that the very word has become a liability even to sincere believers.

 

[Dawnofhope]

We consider the monotheists to be arrogant, denying the freedom of polytheists and free inquiry. Why should we take the word of XYZ as final? To us, that seems foolishness. Hindus just cannot abandon questioning.

I don't see anyone saying you are not free to investigate the truth for yourself or you should abandon questioning. These are excellent qualities.

As Luis said, historicity of Krishna is not a must for Hinduism. What if the stories were written to illustrate situations in life and how one should react to them? That the Krishna story is old is undisputed. It is a pre-Aryan folk tale (2,000 BCE), just like the Rama and other stories. Perhaps that was the way our people instructed on ethics and morals.

That is interesting to hear your perspective. Baha'is of course believe Krishna to have been a real person and someone who had enormous influence on the spiritual development of the world.

Why is integration and loss of one's culture and identity necessary? Why can't people adjust with a different culture in their midst? Hindus have always done so. Perhaps the Fijians are that way. They did usurp the rights of a part of their population by military action. Do you approve of that?

I found it troubling that two races that had lived side by side for over a century did not have a better relationship with each other. Eventually the indigenous Fijians felt threatened by the Indians and that is what resulted in the coup. I don't wish to comment further on the politics of either Fiji or India.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, best wishes for the world. We will go our way and take the changes as they come in time.

We seem to be doing nicely. As for superstition, you should not be talking about it. You think that there is God and he sent some people with messages. Whether the Gods are real or imaginary, some people are comforted by the idea. We have no problem with that.

In what way and where, Hinduism is not fulfilling our needs? Anything wrong with being an indigenous religion?

No one ever has a count and I doubt the statement. There are so many sects in Hinduism. As for respecting Vishnu, Rama, Krishna and Buddha (who is an avatara for us), all Hindus irrespective of their denomination, do that.

Except for Muslims, Hindus are just as peaceful or volatile as people in any other religion. What reaction would you expect when thousands upon thousands Hindus and Sikhs were being killed in Pakistan? We did not want a partition, even many Muslims did not want that. And millions stayed back in India. That is why they are 175 million strong today.

I haven't travelled to India but would love to one day. We have many people from India living in New Zealand.

Its obviously for the people of India to work out what's best for the people of India as its for the people of my country to work out what's best for us.

Religion is more of a personal matter. You are critical of the Abrahamic faiths and that's your right. From my limited perspective, Hinduism isn't perfect either. However they are your traditions and values and I'm really just trying to better understand where you are coming from.

I'm not too interested in an Abramahic vs Dharmic mud slinging match. I think both traditions have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Vinayaka]

Many of the Indians I spoke to wanted to leave Fiji and hoped I might be able to help them escape to New Zealand. I don’t recall any of them wanting to return to India.

That being said I’d love to get to India one day myself. I could find out first hand about the numbers of Baha’is lol.

I’m presuming you’ve been to India, right?

Returning to India from the sugar diaspora is unrealistic. After 4 to 5 generations, they no longer hold any Indian rights. Just as you or I couldn't easily move there, so too for them. Ancestry means nothing. So Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, because of the once British Commonwealth, easier immigration, and better opportunity, are far better options.

The sadness is that any group anywhere feels so unwelcomed they have a desire to flee. But the benefit is far more diverse communities word wide. This city has 2 Fijian run temples. Many felt uncomfortable at the Indian temples. Five generations changes how things are done.

Yes. I've been to India. Pilgrimage.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hinduism is worlds ahead of any Abrahamic Faith where relevance to multicultural environments is a concern. From all appearances, it always was and likely will ever be.

The only reason why it could possibly appear otherwise that I can think is that it does not have much in the way of predatory proselitism.

India itself is culturally and racially diverse but Hinduism doesn't seem to be.

How Ethnically Diverse are Religions? - World Religion News

I think the diversity within India itself is due to historic circumstances, particularly with being colonised by Muslims and then Christians.

It was just the nature of the world up until relatively recently where empires came and went and dominated each other by force. That's been more to do with politics of expanding empires and colonisation rather than a motivation for religious conversion. Of course there have been forced conversions and some terrible behaviours that's happened in the name of religion. However economic exploitation is a far more important driving factor for colonisation than religion.

 

[Marcion]

I'm not too interested in an Abramahic vs Dharmic mud slinging match. I think both traditions have their strengths and weaknesses.

You seem to be treating both the so-called 'Abrahamic' and so-called 'Dharmic' traditions as two separate blocks. That could say a lot about the way you look at the concepts of religion and spirituality.
Dharma is a universal concept which has nothing to do with religious traditions but is associated with the spiritual direction that people are moving in regardless of their religious or non-religious culture. So a christian or a muslim or even an atheist could also be more or less following his or her dharma if he or she follows a certain systematic life style that promotes spiritual growth or expansion.

That is why the founder of my tradition could say that it is most closely related to Sufism, which you would probably place in your 'Abrahamic' camp. And you would probably place my preferred tradition in the so-called 'Dharmic' camp.

My point is that looking at traditions on the level of religions or religious blocks is a superficial even a non-spiritual way to view traditions and their significance.
Which is why I applaud people who embrace tantric, yogic or mystic practices in whatever form or tradition they are implemented and I frown upon people who want to divide up the world in 'believers' and 'non-believers' on superstitious, ignorant or xenophobic grounds.

 

[Vinayaka]

India itself is culturally and racially diverse but Hinduism doesn't seem to be.

How Ethnically Diverse are Religions? - World Religion News

I think the diversity within India itself is due to historic circumstances, particularly with being colonised by Muslims and then Christians.

.

The more diverse religions are those that historically were conquerors. That's not really a proud point for the reason for diversity. How many African Christians were there before missionaries went on their conversion missions? How many Pacific Islanders were Christian before the sugar diaspora which was accompanied by British missionaries? How many Islamists existed outside the middle east? Even in your small faith, there is a great divide between Iranian and 'others' due to language. Diversity might be there externally, but is it welcomed? Here in my city, the immigrant Christians often divide themselves up according to racial lines. There are Korean Christian churches, Greek Orthodox churches, etc. Very little intermingling at all.