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TV correspondent sexually assaulted in Cairo's Tahrir Square

Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Alceste said:
Yeah, jeez, as everyone knows, women are NEVER sexually assaulted in any of the NATO countries :rolleyes:.
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The OWS, as far as I'm aware, hasn't had any such instances, nor the Tea Party. I don't think the circumstances - enitre crowds engaging in it in broad daylight, with everyone around applauding and cheering - are exactly common in "NATO countries". You don't think the attitudes towards women and rape are different in different parts of the world?
 
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Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Please forgive my degrading your serious point with a smart arsed link.
(I can't resist a good set-up though.)
 
Alceste

Alceste

Vagabond
Father Heathen said:
Okay, I stand corrected, although the differences must be noted - In the Cairo case (which also happened earlier in the year with a CBS reporter), the whole crowd engaged with others applauding and cheering them on, while the OWS cases were isolated incidents involving individuals who obviously did not have the crowds approval.
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Texas Gang Rape of 11-Year-Old Girl; Charges Against 18 Men Spark Racial Tensions - ABC News
Girl 'gang raped' at school prom | The Sun |News
Richmond High School California: An Attack at Prom and Subsequent Arrests - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com
Not So Cute: Dolphin Gang-Rape | Scienceray

I know it's tempting to chalk it up to culture, but honestly, gang rape happens everywhere. I don't think pretending it is a cultural difference, or caused by religious ideology, is helpful. It obscures the very serious problem of sexual harassment and sexual assault in our own back yard.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Alceste said:
Texas Gang Rape of 11-Year-Old Girl; Charges Against 18 Men Spark Racial Tensions - ABC News
Girl 'gang raped' at school prom | The Sun |News
Richmond High School California: An Attack at Prom and Subsequent Arrests - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com
Not So Cute: Dolphin Gang-Rape | Scienceray

I know it's tempting to chalk it up to culture, but honestly, gang rape happens everywhere. I don't think pretending it is a cultural difference, or caused by religious ideology, is helpful. It obscures the very serious problem of sexual harassment and sexual assault in our own back yard.
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Yes, it's a problem in all societies, but does it occur in equal frequency across the board? Are all cultures equally misogynistic regardless of outwardly appearance? If cultural attitudes aren't a factor, what is?
 
Tamar

Tamar

I am Jewish.
This is the 2nd time a correspondent has been sexually assaulted doing her job in Egypt. Assaults happen in all societies that is true but the issue is that she was doing her job. She was taken by the Egyptian police and assaulted.

http://www.channel4.com/news/egyptian-journalist-alleges-sexual-assault-by-authorities?345
The former Reuters correspondent alleges on Twitter that she was brought from Tahrir Square to the interior ministry, where she was blindfolded for two hours and questioned, and passed between the central security forces (CSF) and the military police.


http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/25/world/meast/egypt-journalist-assault/?hpt=hp_t1


http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-15/...reign-affairs-correspondent-medic?_s=PM:WORLD
 
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Drolefille

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
Father Heathen said:
Yes, it's a problem in all societies, but does it occur in equal frequency across the board? Are all cultures equally misogynistic regardless of outwardly appearance? If cultural attitudes aren't a factor, what is?
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Playing the Oppression Olympics game doesn't solve or do anything than attempt to make the one culture feel superior to another. (Well we may blame rape victims but at least we don't throw acid at them for going to school! At least we didn't sterilize poor minority women against their will! Oh yeah, well we don't make them cover up from head to toe! etc.)
Cultures are misogynistic, who is more misogynistic, or racist or whatever doesn't really matter.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Drolefille said:
Playing the Oppression Olympics game doesn't solve or do anything than attempt to make the one culture feel superior to another. (Well we may blame rape victims but at least we don't throw acid at them for going to school! At least we didn't sterilize poor minority women against their will! Oh yeah, well we don't make them cover up from head to toe! etc.)
Cultures are misogynistic, who is more misogynistic, or racist or whatever doesn't really matter.
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I don't see how ignoring the contributing factors behind a heinous crime because it also happens elsewhere makes sense. That's like saying we shouldn't point out that fast food is unhealthy because candy bars are also unhealthy.
 
Drolefille

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
Father Heathen said:
I don't see how ignoring the contributing factors behind a heinous crime because it also happens elsewhere makes sense. That's like saying we shouldn't point out that fast food is unhealthy because candy bars are also unhealthy.
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Oh one can identify the sources, but that's not the same thing as saying "what's wrong with this culture?" with an explicit or implicit "why is this culture worse than ours?"

Pointing out that they're both unhealthy makes sense, but quibbling over whether BK or McD's is less healthy for you misses the point entirely. Further it only makes people defend each culture from the perceived outside "we're better than you" attack.

One who wishes to fight misogyny will, hopefully, address and be aware of it wherever it shows up. The fact that you were unaware of the OWS sexual assaults, something that has been discussed for example on many feminist websites but posted the OP with a "what is up with this culture" comment suggests that your true motives are not protecting women but inditing Egyptian/Arab/Muslim culture.

Those (broad, not lumped together) cultures are misogynistic, to be sure, but I feel like you're being disingenuous with this post. You didn't just want to say that rape was bad, or understand where it came from - you didn't want to tell us that fast food was bad for us - you wanted to myopically blame the culture where it took place.

Suffice to say, that's not the kind of ally women need.
 
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Alceste

Alceste

Vagabond
Drolefille said:
Oh one can identify the sources, but that's not the same thing as saying "what's wrong with this culture?" with an explicit or implicit "why is this culture worse than ours?"

Pointing out that they're both unhealthy makes sense, but quibbling over whether BK or McD's is less healthy for you misses the point entirely. Further it only makes people defend each culture from the perceived outside "we're better than you" attack.

One who wishes to fight misogyny will, hopefully, address and be aware of it wherever it shows up. The fact that you were unaware of the OWS sexual assulats, something that has been discussed for example on many feminist websites but posted the OP with a "what is up with this culture" comment suggests that your true motives are not protecting women but inditing Egyptian/Arab/Muslim culture.

Those (broad, not lumped together) cultures are misogynistic, to be sure, but I feel like you're being disingenuous with this post. You didn't just want to say that rape was bad, or understand where it came from - you didn't want to tell us that fast food was bad for us - you wanted to myopically blame the culture where it took place.

Suffice to say, that's not the kind of ally women need.
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That was my point.

I understand FH's association of Islamic ideology and violence against women, and I think there are good grounds for it. I think it's reasonable to point out there may be some correlation, but I think he goes too far. Saying there's something wrong with "that culture" makes it sound as if such things don't happen in "this culture", where they do in fact happen every single day.

I personally know a woman who was gang raped in Spain by a crowd of 8 or 10 cheering English men. Someone told her she heard them still laughing and joking about it on the train home.

It's appalling wherever it occurs.
 
Drolefille

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
Alceste said:
That was my point.

I understand FH's association of Islamic ideology and violence against women, and I think there are good grounds for it. I think it's reasonable to point out there may be some correlation, but I think he goes too far. Saying there's something wrong with "that culture" makes it sound as if such things don't happen in "this culture", where they do in fact happen every single day.
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Correct, there's room for an examination of the causes without playing oppression olympics or painting one religion/nation/ethnicity/cultural group with a very broad brush.

Additionally without being part of the culture, it can be very difficult to identify precisely what forces are at work that trigger such actions. For example, when such things happen in the US, is it Christianity to blame? (Depending on the area or the denomination or the individual church or the people involved, there may be a religious influence.) Is it the race of the people involved? The lack of parenting? The casual attitudes toward sex or the promotion of 'boys being boys" while shaming women who 'put themselves at risk? Even here it's hard to nail it down. And I live here, I know this country and its politics pretty well. I can follow what goes on in Egypt and learn about it, but I don't live there.

Yes it's misogyny, it's the de-valuation of women in general and the dehumanization of that woman in that moment to those men. It's the culture as a whole and the individual moment. And it happens throughout the majority of cultures in this world, I'm willing to say without statistics in front of me.

That doesn't mean it's not worth discussing, but I'm not going to throw a whole "culture*" under the bus as if that would solve women's problems everywhere.

*Scare quotes because, what culture afterall, Egyptian? The protestors specifically? Muslim? Arab? Men in general?
 
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Alceste

Alceste

Vagabond
Drolefille said:
Correct, there's room for an examination of the causes without playing oppression olympics or painting one religion/nation/ethnicity/cultural group with a very broad brush.

Additionally without being part of the culture, it can be very difficult to identify precisely what forces are at work that trigger such actions. For example, when such things happen in the US, is it Christianity to blame? (Depending on the area or the denomination or the individual church or the people involved, there may be a religious influence.) Is it the race of the people involved? The lack of parenting? The casual attitudes toward sex or the promotion of 'boys being boys" while shaming women who 'put themselves at risk? Even here it's hard to nail it down. And I live here, I know this country and its politics pretty well. I can follow what goes on in Egypt and learn about it, but I don't live there.

Yes it's misogyny, it's the de-valuation of women in general and the dehumanization of that woman in that moment to those men. It's the culture as a whole and the individual moment. And it happens throughout the majority of cultures in this world, I'm willing to say without statistics in front of me.

That doesn't mean it's not worth discussing, but I'm not going to throw a whole "culture*" under the bus as if that would solve women's problems everywhere.

*Scare quotes because, what culture afterall, Egyptian? The protestors specifically? Muslim? Arab? Men in general?
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Since the assailants usually appear to be police officers and soldiers who have turned out to suppress the protesters rather than protesters, I'm happy to blame it on authoritarians. After all, that IS my personal bugbear, so surely it is responsible for all the evils in the world. ;)
 
Bismillah

Bismillah

Submit
The OWS, as far as I'm aware, hasn't had any such instances, nor the Tea Party. I don't think the circumstances - enitre crowds engaging in it in broad daylight, with everyone around applauding and cheering - are exactly common in "NATO countries". You don't think the attitudes towards women and rape are different in different parts of the world?
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As others have mentioned, you are dead wrong
Two sexual assaults reportedly occurred last week, and police arrested 26-year-old Tonye Iketubosin of Crown Heights on Tuesday night for allegedly groping one 18-year-old protester on Friday evening. Another 18-year-old demonstrator has come forward to the Manhattan DA's office, alleging that Iketubosin raped her last Saturday morning after he offered his tent as a place to sleep. Prosecutors are investigating the claims and have said that the charges are "pending."

Other sexual assaults have been rumored to occur in Zuccotti Park, prompting the movement's General Assembly to release a statement condemning the attacks and offering support to the survivors.
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http://gothamist.com/2011/11/05/occupy_wall_street_erects_women-onl.php

but leaving that aside, you managed to shockingly overlook the fact that you are comparing First World countries and relatively organized protests to an anarchic state. Unless one is either exceptionally moronic or more likely has their mind made up, they should be able to see the glaring flaw in that comparison. But maybe I am being to generous in expectations of common sense.
 
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not nom

not nom

Well-Known Member
Bismillah said:
As others have mentioned, you are dead wrong
Two sexual assaults reportedly occurred last week, and police arrested 26-year-old Tonye Iketubosin of Crown Heights on Tuesday night for allegedly groping one 18-year-old protester on Friday evening. Another 18-year-old demonstrator has come forward to the Manhattan DA's office, alleging that Iketubosin raped her last Saturday morning after he offered his tent as a place to sleep. Prosecutors are investigating the claims and have said that the charges are "pending."

Other sexual assaults have been rumored to occur in Zuccotti Park, prompting the movement's General Assembly to release a statement condemning the attacks and offering support to the survivors.
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^ you compare that to the OP???

no further questions o_O
 
Bismillah

Bismillah

Submit
He asked for sexual assaults at OWS he got them. The fact that it was at a larger scale in Cairo does not negate that "Nato Countries" are not immune to such things, rather one should make the connection that a country without any state government and de facto anarchy might see the same crime but on an exaggerated scale.
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
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