Truth is not simple

[Curious George]

The "truth" is two things: it is all those propositions that we consider to be "true," and it is what makes those propositions true. The former would appear to be the topic here, but whether we consider a simple set of propositions or a complex one, none of them are actually ever going to equate to a grand truth. It's like Archie Campbell and his "good/bad" routine on Heehaw. For each proposition, there is a way to look at it and see truth or see falseness. True and false in that sense are tools for promoting our agenda in the world, a tool of "ego" or "self."

Is that a truth now?

 

[outhouse]

Yeah, I was going to say that, but... couldn't figure out how to do it politely?

Your OP was wide and varied and covered many specific aspects of truth and religion combined.

"In Religious Matters, Truth is Overrated."

This in itself Is stating the obvious IMHO. I agree.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Only if you do not understand how the ignorant cannot possibly know the truth unless luck be at their side.

So anyone with less than a masters you wish not to communicate , is bigoted to say the least .
Bible is full of truth . First one is Earth wasn't always here .

 

[outhouse]

First one is Earth wasn't always here .

Bible has no credibility here and the actual mythology describes something quite different

So anyone with less than a masters you wish not to communicate

Red herring, I never stated or implied such.

Maybe you have a distain for truth since it shines a light on what is mythology and what is reality?

Bible is full of truth

And fiction and plagiarized mythology

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Bible has no credibility here and the actual mythology describes something quite different



Red herring, I never stated or implied such.

Maybe you have a distain for truth since it shines a light on what is mythology and what is reality?



And fiction and plagiarized mythology

Uneducated as in never been to school , this is the year 2016 modern definitions of uneducated , you are uneducated until you achieve masters in a SINGLE subject it is only at this level one can consider themselves fully educated .
Learn to use English properly .
Distain is an obsolete word , the truth would disgrace me ? When have I ever stated my eggs are in a single basket .

 

[outhouse]

you are uneducated until you achieve masters in a SINGLE subject it is only at this level one can consider themselves fully educated .

Red herring.

Has no context to the fact knowledge over ignorance gets one closer to the truth.

Learn to use English properly .

One could learn to stay in context as well

the truth would disgrace me ?

Might depending on your personal levels of fanaticism or fundamentalism on any given topic. knowledge has a way of sneaking up on people who rely on faith for certain topics

 

[Riverwolf]

Then we can address how some bias places one closer to the truth then others.

Some bias are more conducive to finding or seeking truth, IE placing one closer to it.

That I can agree with. There's nothing wrong with being biased or having biases, and it frustrates me to no end that it's become almost a dirty word in certain circles.

And here's one of my biases: I have no problem with people having certain biases that have nothing to do with "getting closer to the truth", if such a thing isn't terribly important to them, and as long as they don't actively seek to hinder those who do seek it.

Which is directly tied to my statement of knowledge and those being ignorant were very far from many truths.

Not really. Aversion to knowledge by religions, particularly religions that are historically all about furthering knowledge (such as the Catholic Church, believe it or not), is a very recent phenomenon. Recorded history goes back... what, five thousand years? That's ten times more time than has passed since Galileo. A lot of what I've seen of early Church writings display attitudes towards "pagans" that are nearly identical to modern anti-religious attitudes towards all theists. The beliefs might be different, but it's the same intellectual elitism.

History is what educated people determine is plausible based on what people said happened used as evidence to study for possible accuracy.

That's just a more in-depth wording of what I was saying.

I never stated history was all empirical fact. Some of it is without question, and some history is not knowledge and is not strong enough to get pass educated opinion.

The way you worded it implied an absolute, or near absolute, situation. "It is empirical fact." Yet here you admit that only "some of it is without question."

 

[allfoak]

One perspective does not make another perspective untrue.

There is only one truth, with as many perspectives of it as there are people.

 

[outhouse]

There's nothing wrong with being biased or having biases, and it frustrates me to no end that it's become almost a dirty word in certain circles.

When I look at the word bias, I see negative aspects tied to personal belief against knowledge. So bear with me if that is a stereotype, I do not know any better.

A lot of what I've seen of early Church writings display attitudes towards "pagans" that are nearly identical to modern anti-religious attitudes towards all theists.

Which to me is avoidance of truth in context.

After all, their religion started and was influenced solely on pagan traditions. I don't even like the word pagan because I see no difference.

but it's the same intellectual elitism.

I'm not going there.

I'm stating in context the modern fanaticism and fundamentalism many religions adhere to, goes against many "truths"

In that context willful ignorance would apply as keeping some theist from truth.

But my whole point is without knowledge one is only guessing at the truth. And this goes back to Platos arguments of knowledge and true belief.

 

[Sunstone]

Truth often speaks hesitantly, Falsehood, just as often, with assurance.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Red herring.

Has no context to the fact knowledge over ignorance gets one closer to the truth.



One could learn to stay in context as well




Might depending on your personal levels of fanaticism or fundamentalism on any given topic. knowledge has a way of sneaking up on people who rely on faith for certain topics

Closer ? a distance of a few yards makes little difference over billions of light years . Knowledge , there are things we know , things we think we know and things we know we don't know . The things we know we don't know our subjective reality tries to fill in the blanks , the concept of
god is not as ignorant a possibility as you imply .
Problem with religion and science they are both trying to describe the undescribable , science is just as guilty of bending and adding dark bits to the parts of which they have little knowledge .

 

[outhouse]

Problem with religion and science they are both trying to describe the undescribable

Religion does no such thing. It relies on ancient mythology and modern mens poor interpretation of topics few actually understand in its anthropological context.

Science on the other hand gives credible explanations of nature as it can with the evidence it observes.

 

[outhouse]

the concept of
god is not as ignorant a possibility as you imply .

I have not implied that here.

Religions have a long track record of going against truth with faith alone.

 

[outhouse]

he concept of
god is not as ignorant a possibility as you imply .

Which god are you even talking about?

El ?
Yahweh?
Allah?
Jesus?
Baal ?
Asherah?
El Shaddai?
El Elyon ?
Eloheim ?
El in Mesopotamina religions?
El in Canaanite religions ?
Ghost?
HolySpirit?

Which one ?

 

[outhouse]

and it frustrates me to no end that it's become almost a dirty word in certain circles.

It frustrates me when some theist refuse the facts of evolution and biology and geographic dating and science in general, because of theistic bias.

Maybe we should discuss truth or lack of in certain bias, and who is making the claim of bias which places it all in context. Sorry just bored today

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I have not implied that here.

Religions have a long track record of going against truth with faith alone.

The rolemodel of Jesus in the bible , how he interacts with humanity forgetting the miracles is an unrighteous path to follow ?
The uneducated need a role model who should we try to be like to ensure uneducated people do the least damage possible during their stay on this wonderful blue planet ? A name please

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Which god are you even talking about?

El ?
Yahweh?
Allah?
Jesus?
Baal ?
Asherah?
El Shaddai?
El Elyon ?
Eloheim ?
El in Mesopotamina religions?
El in Canaanite religions ?
Ghost?
HolySpirit?

Which one ?

The one that could offer the truth beyond localised evolution

 

[outhouse]

The rolemodel of Jesus in the bible , how he interacts with humanity forgetting the miracles is an unrighteous path to follow ?

Well what is known historically speaking shows the NT is much less then truthful. We see with knowledge the rhetorical prose gave the unknown authors who never knew jesus or heard jesus and belongs to another culture altogether then jesus, had and used quite the artistic freedom in creating text, building divinity with the sole purpose to persuade readers to stay loyal to the cause.

The uneducated need a role model who should we try to be like to ensure uneducated people do the least damage possible during their stay on this wonderful blue planet ?

Agreed whole hearted.

This I follow

Just because I don't believe in mythology does not mean I don't see the value in theology

 

[outhouse]

The one that could offer the truth beyond localised evolution

Which one has that possibility?

They all evolved from localized plagiarized concepts

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Well what is known historically speaking shows the NT is much less then truthful. We see with knowledge the rhetorical prose gave the unknown authors who never knew jesus or heard jesus and belongs to another culture altogether then jesus, had and used quite the artistic freedom in creating text, building divinity with the sole purpose to persuade readers to stay loyal to the cause.



Agreed whole hearted.

This I follow

Just because I don't believe in mythology does not mean I don't see the value in theology

Please stick to the portrait of Jesus by the authors of the bible please also suggesting a roll model that the uneducated should follow instead of Jesus.

Well least we have little common ground on which we should celebrate and build a cathedral ! .