Truth: either God exists or He don't.

[Polymath257]

If it was a glitch of something I did myself I would tell you and probably gone a different path like wrote a book etc. When I prayed, God answered, He changed me, my family knew me before and after, if you saw you would too. I’m just a witness to the Truth. I was hopeless and it’s at that point God rescued me. He gave me understanding of the Scriptures and have proved Him to be faithful for the last 30 years of my life. I already know that it’s a gift from God to believe, people tried to convince me for a long time before I came to the end of my “good ideas”. He was there and still is.

Suit yourself. If something like that happened to me, the first reaction I would have is questioning my own experience.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Suit yourself. If something like that happened to me, the first reaction I would have is questioning my own experience.

Sorry to hear that, people are different, that’s why I’m a believer and you’re an unbeliever.

 

[Dave Watchman]

But God *didn't* die. In your mythos, God continued to live after life and did all sorts of things. At worst, the death was a minor inconvenience. But, mostly, it was theater: it was God inconveniencing himself for a few days so that he could decide not to apply the rules he set up and, instead, took his own discomfort for payment.

How does that make sense?

He had to give up His immortality.

Be tortured , humiliated, die a painful death.

And be separated fro His Father, of whom He is an only begotten son.

So? Why would I want to live forever?

I know, why would I want to win the lottery?

On the contrary, most do this because they *suspect* their might be a God. They have crises of faith because they also have doubts about this. it is their fear that drives them.

Fear also means respect.

When I see the label on an electrical box: "600 VOLTS", I have fear, respect for that.

This only shows that people resort to God-belief because they are afraid of death. that is a very poor reason to believe anything, let alone in something you cannot verify independently.

Would it be a better reason to know that I might have life?

Choose live over death?

Maybe even see my animals live again?

Who knows?

I'll check it out and let you know.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I wasn't asking why you believed in your god, I was asking why your specific god just happens to exist. Compare with your comment about the universe being the way it is "by chance".

At the end of the day, we don't know fundamentally why things exist and are the way they are, and postulating a god doesn't actually answer the question.

God wrote the Bible or Scripture how ever you want to call His Word, He predicts the future in those Scriptures with 100% accuracy. Some misinterpret those Scriptures for numerous reasons but I’ve found them to be accurate and true. Jesus Christ came and proved these very Scriptures, never sinned or deceit was found in His mouth. Was Crucified, Buried, rose from the dead, walked the earth 40 days after and was seen by many people, their eyewitness accounts are recorded.

 

[Polymath257]

He had to give up His immortality.

Be tortured , humiliated, die a painful death.

And be separated fro His Father, of whom He is an only begotten son.

While actually also being God and thereby knowing he was going to survive the whole experience. he didn't give up immortality: he is still alive according to your myth.

I know, why would I want to win the lottery?

Many people want eternal life that don't know what to do on a Sunday afternoon.

Living *forever* would be sheer torture. Maybe 10,000 years would be tolerable. But eternity? No way.

Fear also means respect.

Only in the minds of dictators.

W

hen I see the label on an electrical box: "600 VOLTS", I have fear, respect for that.

Respect is different than fear. You should respect the knowledge of those who are warning you about a problem you should be aware of. But that is *very* different than what God does (supposedly). Remember God made the rules. If an engineer had the ability to make that 600 Volts be safe without a warning and did not do so, then that engineer would be said to be incompetent.

God supposedly had the ability to create the world in any way he wanted. But he chose the rules so that he knew they would not be followed and pain and suffering would result. That makes that deity evil.

Would it be a better reason to know that I might have life?

Choose live over death?

Maybe even see my animals live again?

Who knows?

I'll check it out and let you know.

Huh? What you said doesn't seem to be a response to what I wrote.

 

[Polymath257]

Sorry to hear that, people are different, that’s why I’m a believer and you’re an unbeliever.

I always question my own biases and experiences. I am always in the lookout for ways I could be deluding myself. I am always trying to be honest with myself about the difference between what I want to be true and what is actually true.

And, yes, part of the reason I don't believe in a deity is that I am skeptical. But I see that as a GOOD thing. Not being skeptical leads inevitably into error and untruth.

 

[Dave Watchman]

This is the claim of some Christians, but it makes no sense. Substitution atonement is immoral at best. It is not an answer. Why would God need to punish anyone for what appears to be his incompetence?

You're right, substitution atonement was a poor solution. But it was the only solution that could be used at the time. God did not desire the blood of bulls. That's why the Christ was sent to make a sacrifice for sin once and for all.

There you go, that is a good start. Ask proper questions. The answer was to forgive people.

If it was that easy, why would God sacrifice His only son?

The penalty for sin is death.

God can't transgress His own law.

Tell us, whose fault is it that God did not make your mythical people without a sense of right and wrong (please note which tree they ate the fruit of and their reaction immediately after they ate it)? Who put that tree in the middle of the Garden where they could easily get to it? Who put the serpent in the Garden whose job it was to entice them? God is clearly at fault in that myth. He should be punishing himself not others.

I continue to maintain that our purpose here is to serve a greater end.

God is in the process of eradicating the sin problem in His universe.

Actually we arose through the process of evolution, but we can let that go for now. The fact that one created others does not give one the right to do with them as one pleases. There are limits on what you can do to your children even though you "made them". If God is moral the same rules apply to him.

What limits?

Human rights?

The Creator, like the inventor of a product that takes out a patent on the item, has the right to say how it will behave in His universe.

He is the Potter, I am the clay pot.

Not too hard to figure out.

Does the pot say to the Potter, why did you make me like this?

 

[Dave Watchman]

After he was the one that dictated we should die.

The penalty for sin is death.

Sin is transgression of the law.

The law is whatever God says.

Because only He is Holy, Holy, Holy.

And who cursed it?

Adam, "because of you the Earth is cursed. Living the dream.

"To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.​

How about creating them so that they had free will AND didn't sin?

AI.

Like that robot girl.

I want a real one.

So he, a perfect being, made an imperfect world and then complained that it wasn't perfect?

And a billion holy angels are watching it all.

I wonder what it's all about?

 

[Dave Watchman]

I would be interested in seeing you debate Daniel with and educated Jew.

It would be a time waster.

They are blinded in part, until the times of the gentiles are finished.

Plus, I think they only recognize the Torah, the first five Books of Moses.

The Knesset Jews of 1969 are the only ones that can touch me.

But, this is the closest I can come to them right now.

Enjoy the empirical for another day.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Nobody is smart enough to find what isn't there.

You wish.

Or hope.

And pray.

It's been fun rapping with you Atheistic folks today.

This arctic blast won't let me out of the crib.

Did you ever wonder?

Why is there so much media, movies and hymns and the like,
for a God that you can't prove does not exist?

Had a dream I was alone
A vast expanse of complete unknown
Sea of glass so clear it shown
Like gold
Then a Voice like thunder clapped
As a dead man, I collapsed
"I am the first, I am the last
Now, rise my son"

Then behold, ten thousand kings
And every creature worshiping
Every eye was on one thing
One Man
He's like a lion, like a lamb
As though slain, He holds the plan
To make war and peace with man
And reign on earth

Holy, Holy, is the One
Who was and is, and is to come
In a robe as red as blood
He comes forth
Ride like lightning in the sky
On a war horse He draws nigh
The same One we crucified
Will return again

Holy, Holy, is the One
Who was and is, and is to come
In a robe as red as blood
He comes forth
Ride like lightning in the sky
On a war horse He draws nigh
The same One we crucified
Will return again

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're right, substitution atonement was a poor solution. But it was the only solution that could be used at the time. God did not desire the blood of bulls. That's why the Christ was sent to make a sacrifice for sin once and for all.

Hold on, it was God's mistake according to the myth, why couldn't he find a different solution? Why would he want any blood at all? You are painting a very human picture of God. In fact a very primitive human picture of God.

If it was that easy, why would God sacrifice His only son?

The penalty for sin is death.

God can't transgress His own law.

So God could not kill himself since he screwed up? Sorry, but you are now claiming that your God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. You need to come up with something better than "God could not do it".

I continue to maintain that our purpose here is to serve a greater end.

God is in the process of eradicating the sin problem in His universe.

That is an interesting belief. Any evidence for it? Any logical reason to support your version of God's rather odd and self contradicting behavior?

What limits?

Human rights?

The Creator, like the inventor of a product that takes out a patent on the item, has the right to say how it will behave in His universe.

He is the Potter, I am the clay pot.

Not too hard to figure out.

Does the pot say to the Potter, why did you make me like this?

Sorry, not if you want to claim that God is moral. Or just. If you want to say that he is a monster unworthy of worship you might have a point. This is the problem with some versions of Christianity. They are far to self contradicting.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because only He is Holy, Holy, Holy.

It appears that you are saying that only he is "Evil, Evil, Evil". Perhaps you should define your terms.

 

[Dave Watchman]

While actually also being God and thereby knowing he was going to survive the whole experience. he didn't give up immortality: he is still alive according to your myth.

I doubt we'll ever get the chance to experience how it would be for an immortal to give up immortality and cease to exist for a number of days, then be re-born by God Himself.

Many people want eternal life that don't know what to do on a Sunday afternoon.

Living *forever* would be sheer torture. Maybe 10,000 years would be tolerable. But eternity? No way.

I might have talked with a guy like you on another thread.

I'm glad that God does not share in your opinion.

I'll test out infinity and let you know.

I wonder if we can do time travel or shape shifting?

"But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—​

Only in the minds of dictators.

W

Or electrical pannels marked for "600 VOLTS."

Respect is different than fear. You should respect the knowledge of those who are warning you about a problem you should be aware of. But that is *very* different than what God does (supposedly). Remember God made the rules. If an engineer had the ability to make that 600 Volts be safe without a warning and did not do so, then that engineer would be said to be incompetent.

God supposedly had the ability to create the world in any way he wanted. But he chose the rules so that he knew they would not be followed and pain and suffering would result. That makes that deity evil.

If God could reverse time, and make it so that Hitler was 10 years old, would the war time crimes that he was responsible for still have occurred?

Or would his actions, and the actions of his generals, be etched in the fabric of time itself.

Huh? What you said doesn't seem to be a response to what I wrote.

I probably got the quotes mixed up.

I think it was about the 600 VOLTS deal.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I always question my own biases and experiences. I am always in the lookout for ways I could be deluding myself. I am always trying to be honest with myself about the difference between what I want to be true and what is actually true.

And, yes, part of the reason I don't believe in a deity is that I am skeptical. But I see that as a GOOD thing. Not being skeptical leads inevitably into error and untruth.

Of course, I agree, it’s easy to be self deceived and led into error. There is one Truth, Jesus Christ proved He is that Truth, He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, He is the Passover Lamb, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits from the dead. I see this clearly. Many others don’t. I’m confident I know Him and that’s also clear to me, no one can take this from me. Just like no one can talk you into believing you are going to have to get something from God yourself like I did.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In the Bible IS the evidence.

I would look at the prophetic time periods in Daniel and Revelation.

Some are still to come, but some are solvable.

Nope, the Bible is the claim. If you state that you are only saying that you have no evidence and therefore do not have a rational belief. And the so called prophesies are quite often merely misinterpretations of the Bible. All of them fail by any rational approach. Tell me, was Nostradamus a true prophet? If not why not? I am pretty sure by the same rules, unless you rely on a massive logical fallacy, he is.

My read now is that they ALL have "fallen."

All have reached the point of a corruption and will morph into the eighth king, Lucifer's theocratic government..

Because God screwed up? That does not sound reasoanble.

The heptads, the sevens, of Daniel 9 are more than enough.

You can google Artaxerxes decree and read the Wiki page for something to do.

Or try the decree of Suleiman the Magnificent.

Google 1535 decree.

These things can be found 62 weeks and 7 weeks apart.

This is enough empirical to knock it out of the ballpark.

Nope, it ends up just being a special pleading fallacy. Things that do not fit are ignored and tweaks are done so that specific examples fit. One could do that with almost anything if one wanted to. If your claim was actually true a peer reviewed paper could be written on it. Why hasn't anyone done so?

 

[Dave Watchman]

Hold on, it was God's mistake according to the myth, why couldn't he find a different solution? Why would he want any blood at all? You are painting a very human picture of God. In fact a very primitive human picture of God.

This goes back to like, can God make a square circle?

The penalty for sin is death.

God can't override his own rule.

He can't just take a big eraser and wipe sin out.

It has to be payed for, and the wages for sin is.... Death.

So God could not kill himself since he screwed up? Sorry, but you are now claiming that your God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. You need to come up with something better than "God could not do it".

I doubt that He could.

I would fear the whole universe would pas away with a loud noise, and the elements burn with fervent heat.

How do you think it would look to the angels?

If, after all that we've been through, God allowed Satan, his demoic angels and all the rest who follow him, to NOT be anhilated?

God can't transgress His own rule.

That is an interesting belief. Any evidence for it? Any logical reason to support your version of God's rather odd and self contradicting behavior?

There was war in heaven.

A third of that community was lost, cast down to earth.

It's not a great extrapolation required to see that the redeemed portion of humanity is meant to replace the vacancy in God's Kingdom. The Father's House has many rooms now.

Like what the other dude was saying about not wanting to live forever. It's not just what I want.

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God.​

The greatest event in the history of mankind.

Be there or be square.

I want to be in that number, when the Saints go marching in.

Sorry, not if you want to claim that God is moral. Or just. If you want to say that he is a monster unworthy of worship you might have a point. This is the problem with some versions of Christianity. They are far to self contradicting.

There's a lot of versions.

But they can't say he's a monster.

I know that the Father loves me, because I have loved His Son.

"For the Father himself loves you dearly because you love me and believe that I came from God.​

It appears that you are saying that only he is "Evil, Evil, Evil". Perhaps you should define your terms.

Nope, you got the wrong guy.

The Adversary roams around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:​

 

[Polymath257]

This goes back to like, can God make a square circle?

The penalty for sin is death.

God can't override his own rule.

He can't just take a big eraser and wipe sin out.

It has to be payed for, and the wages for sin is.... Death.

Why *can't* he override his own rule? In fact, isn't that exactly what he did when he sent himself, as Jesus? it's mostly a convoluted way to override his own rule.

I doubt that He could.

I would fear the whole universe would pas away with a loud noise, and the elements burn with fervent heat.

How do you think it would look to the angels?

If, after all that we've been through, God allowed Satan, his demoic angels and all the rest who follow him, to NOT be anhilated?

God can't transgress His own rule.

Then he is not omnipotent. if he can't acknowledge his own error, he is also vain and immoral.

There was war in heaven.

A third of that community was lost, cast down to earth.

It's not a great extrapolation required to see that the redeemed portion of humanity is meant to replace the vacancy in God's Kingdom. The Father's House has many rooms now.

Like what the other dude was saying about not wanting to live forever. It's not just what I want.

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God.​

The greatest event in the history of mankind.

Be there or be square.

I want to be in that number, when the Saints go marching in.

Or circular, depending. And I don't want to be in that number. It is a pretty awful crowd if you ask me.

There's a lot of versions.

But they can't say he's a monster.

Even though what the Bible describes is monstrous.

I know that the Father loves me, because I have loved His Son.

"For the Father himself loves you dearly because you love me and believe that I came from God.​

Nope, you got the wrong guy.

The Adversary roams around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:​

Yet more mythology, from what I can see. Why should I believe in either God or the Adversary? They seem like two mythical figures in a mythical story. Fine as a morality tale (as far as it goes), but not something to be seriously believed.

 

[Martin]

Page 31. Has the matter been settled yet?

 

[Dave Watchman]

Nope, the Bible is the claim. If you state that you are only saying that you have no evidence and therefore do not have a rational belief. And the so called prophesies are quite often merely misinterpretations of the Bible.

I think the prophecies are very good.

But when coupled with the prophetic time periods, they knock it out of the ballpark as a team.

All of them fail by any rational approach. Tell me, was Nostradamus a true prophet? If not why not? I am pretty sure by the same rules, unless you rely on a massive logical fallacy, he is.

It don't think he was.

Nor am I.

A prophet has to come from God.

Because God screwed up? That does not sound reasoanble.

No,

The angel told John in 95AD that it would happen.

Five were already fallen, proved false by Jesus' birth,death, and resurrection.

One that was in operation at that time, the new Christian Church.

And one which had not come yet, but when it did arrive, would only stay for a brief time, until it was found corrupt as well.

These all lead up to the 8th king, Lucifer's theocratic one world state.

Looks like it's happening now.

So the composite beast must be watching.

Might be time for me to de-platform myself.

Before he has the chance to sabotage my plugin container.

Nope, it ends up just being a special pleading fallacy.

In this case, I bet you're right.

But, I'd rather lose the argument, than to cast the empirical down before the warthog.

Things that do not fit are ignored and tweaks are done so that specific examples fit. One could do that with almost anything if one wanted to.

No tweaking required here.

Easy math.

There are multiple verifications.

If your claim was actually true a peer reviewed paper could be written on it. Why hasn't anyone done so?

It's rare data.

Assembled by events from 1535 to present, hidden in plain sight.

Unless the 1969 Knesset Jews were involved in a practical joke conspiracy involving Suleiman the Magnificent in 1535, we should be good to go.

Shoot me like a rocket into space.

And all the tribes of the earth will mourn as we light up the stratosphere.

Do you want to live forever?

The answer is supposed to be: Yes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This goes back to like, can God make a square circle?

The penalty for sin is death.

God can't override his own rule.

He can't just take a big eraser and wipe sin out.

It has to be payed for, and the wages for sin is.... Death.

Now you are just repeating unsupported claims. By the way, this is not a "square circle" example. It is something that an omniscient and omnipotent God would have no problem with at all. Remember, it was his poor planning that caused this according to the myth.

I doubt that He could.

I would fear the whole universe would pas away with a loud noise, and the elements burn with fervent heat.

How do you think it would look to the angels?

If, after all that we've been through, God allowed Satan, his demoic angels and all the rest who follow him, to NOT be anhilated?

God can't transgress His own rule.

Again, why not? He made the mess. He was the one that set up Adam to fail in the myth why can't he fix his mess rationally? But until you see that God screwed the pooch so to speak in the Adam and Eve myth you will not be able to come up with an answer.

There was war in heaven.

A third of that community was lost, cast down to earth.

It's not a great extrapolation required to see that the redeemed portion of humanity is meant to replace the vacancy in God's Kingdom. The Father's House has many rooms now.

Like what the other dude was saying about not wanting to live forever. It's not just what I want.

"The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God.​

The greatest event in the history of mankind.

Be there or be square.

I want to be in that number, when the Saints go marching in.

You do realize that the supposed war in heaven tells you that God is not omniscient nor omnipotent. Nor would making his presence known violate free will. You keep making things worse for your version of God.

There's a lot of versions.

But they can't say he's a monster.

I know that the Father loves me, because I have loved His Son.

"For the Father himself loves you dearly because you love me and believe that I came from God.​

Sorry, but you keep describing him as an immoral monster. If he really loved man his phony sacrifice would not be needed anyway.

​

Nope, you got the wrong guy.

The Adversary roams around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:​

Then why do you keep describing God as "Evil, Evil, Evil"? Denying the fact will not make it go away. This is a huge problem for Christianity. The picture of God that they paint is of a being that is not worthy of worship. Perhaps your version of Christianity could use a bit of a tune up.