• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Truth: either God exists or He don't.

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes sir, I have learned that when I post thought provoking questions, that I need to tell people not to answer them, simply meditate on the possibilities. If that makes any sense.

So you aren't interested in what other people have to say after they've thought about your questions?
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
If he knew we would rebel when we created us and didn't want us to, then he was not omnipotent. If he didn't know, then he was not omniscient. If he knew and wanted us to rebel, then he authored evil.

You could say the same thing with Satan and the demonic community.

If God knew what they were going to do, why even bother creating them with free will?

He'd d be lucky if he could plead it down to
a charge of culpable negligence

I hope you get this deal figured out before you find yourself standing there trying to charge God with "culpable negligence" on judgement day. When "every knee will bow", you won't have a leg to stand on.

It's clear to me, even from a casual read, that something is going on bigger than the last 6000 years of man on earth.

It encompasses ALL of creation.

The angelic community is no doubt is watching on the edge of their seats as God deals with eradicates the sin problem.

And there was war in heaven.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

It's easy to put the puzzle pieces together.

It's not all about us here.

God's House has some vacant rooms that need to be filled.

Jesus has gone there to prepare a place for us.

Not everyone gets to go.

But a certain percentage of redeemed humanity are going to replace the "third" of the angels that were lost to Satan.

"His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.​

But Herod couldn't get Him, couldn't devour the child, even with the slaughter of the innocents.

God allowed Satan to do this, but a billion or more angels were watching.

Were they once friends with him, before iniquity was found in his heart?

But now they witness the result of sin as it has metastasized for thousands of years.

And why the Dragon will come to his end with on one to help him.

"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.​
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You could say the same thing with Satan and the demonic community.

If God knew what they were going to do, why even bother creating them with free will?



I hope you get this deal figured out before you find yourself standing there trying to charge God with "culpable negligence" on judgement day. When "every knee will bow", you won't have a leg to stand on.

It's clear to me, even from a casual read, that something is going on bigger than the last 6000 years of man on earth.

It encompasses ALL of creation.

The angelic community is no doubt is watching on the edge of their seats as God deals with eradicates the sin problem.

And there was war in heaven.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

It's easy to put the puzzle pieces together.

It's not all about us here.

God's House has some vacant rooms that need to be filled.

Jesus has gone there to prepare a place for us.

Not everyone gets to go.

But a certain percentage of redeemed humanity are going to replace the "third" of the angels that were lost to Satan.

"His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.​

But Herod couldn't get Him, couldn't devour the child, even with the slaughter of the innocents.

God allowed Satan to do this, but a billion or more angels were watching.

Were they once friends with him, before iniquity was found in his heart?

But now they witness the result of sin as it has metastasized for thousands of years.

And why the Dragon will come to his end with on one to help him.

"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.​

People sure believe some weird things.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
He created Angels and humans with a limited amount of autonomy.

Autonomy from an omniscient, omnipotent creator is impossible. Free will makes no sense at all if somebody effectively decided on our entire nature, nurture, and experience.

we chose to use this small amount of autonomy to rebel against Him and sin against Him.

But (according to what you've said) we (individuals today) didn't. You said that we are all "totally depraved wicked sinners" before we even consider god.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Testing the veracity of our convictions?



What I can't figure out is, why does it appear to me that the Atheist does not WANT to believe in Gdishonesty.

Why does it indeed! Good thing for your
to look inside yourself for that one.

I can't figure out why theists believe the weird things they do, including that one.

In fact, the whole concept of wanting to
believe, or wanting not to, is alien to me,
as it is the very definition of intellectual didhonety.
 
There are problems with this reasoning. When you say 'nothing', do you actually mean *nothing*? No time? No space? No matter?

In that case, I agree with you, but it is irrelevant.

To have 'something come about' requires time. But time isn't the cause, it is merely the background. And, since causality requires time, time itself cannot be caused. It doesn't 'come from nothing'; it merely exists.

And, once time exists, so do space, matter, and energy. They all go together.

And, the natural way to view ALL of these is as aspects of a *four* dimensional spacetime. Since ALL causality requires time, all causality occurs within this four dimensional structure. Which means the structure itself is uncaused.

It didn't 'come from nothing'; it simply exists.

The “it” is actually, God, He is the eternal, with no beginning or end, He has life in Himself, He is All Powerful, All Knowing, the Only wise God. He is the Creator of all things.
 

37818

Active Member
I am not sure what you mean by salvation. Do you mean saved from hell and getting to heaven? Since everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty I would say that it is only by the grace of God that we can be enter heaven.
It is my persuasion by being born over (John 3:3). By believing God's word, that God sent His son to die for our sins and that God rasied His Son from the dead because His Son did indeed do this. So possessing the Spirit of His Son to have eternal life and so know God. ". . . if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9. ". . . He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. . . ." 1 John 5:12.

Mind you, Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. . . .

Does not address the justice of God, "For the wages of sin is death; . . ." -- Romans 6:23. ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die." -- Ezekiel 18:4.

Now Ezekiel did indeed argue, "But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, . . ." -- Ezekiel 18:5.

Leviticus 17:11, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

You must understand if that is not done, ". . . and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; . . ." -- Ezekiel 3:20.

For the Christian it is according to the New Covenant, Jeremaiah 31:31-34. Isaiah 53:6.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The “it” is actually, God, He is the eternal, with no beginning or end, He has life in Himself, He is All Powerful, All Knowing, the Only wise God. He is the Creator of all things.

Or, maybe, it is the universe that is eternal (meaning it exists for all time). That was the 'it' I was talking about. Why do you think there is an intelligence with this property?
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
What I can't figure out is, why does it appear to me that the Atheist does not WANT to believe in God.


Why does it indeed! Good thing for your
to look inside yourself for that one.

I can't figure out why theists believe the weird things they do, including that one.

In fact, the whole concept of wanting to
believe, or wanting not to, is alien to me,
as it is the very definition of intellectual didhonety.

What it 's looking like to me is that, the Atheist generally suspects, or even fears, that God is real, but they don't like the idea of Him telling them what to do.

In this video Bill Nye says that the real problems arise when some people claim that a super entity is telling them what HE should do.


"They tell you you can't do this or you can't do that because the Super Entity of mine is telling me you can't or else he'll......

"That's when there's conflict.

Watch the video starting at about 1:39.

The real issue seems to be, not IS there a Super Entity, but that "should we OBEY it.

The problems is, as we have seen in the past with the Sodomites, people, even in a localized part of the world, can't just DO whatever they want indefinitely without engaging the Wrath of God.

And the land will vomit out it's inhabitants.

The days of Noah, the days of Lot and here we go again.

Lets get ready to rumble.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What it 's looking like to me is that, the Atheist generally suspects, or even fears, that God is real, but they don't like the idea of Him telling them what to do.

In my mind, there are two questions:

1. Does some sort of deity exist?

2. If one (or more) exists, is it worth doing what it (they) say(s)?

Since my answer to the first is no, the second question doesn't even come up, except as a hypothetical. I can go into why I think the answer to the first is no, but in this post I will address the second question.

And, when it comes down to it, the deities most theists believe in are cruel, childlike, and often evil. They would not be worthy of devotion even if they existed.

It seems to me that most theists suspect that there is no God, but are afraid of having to take responsibility for their own actions and for making the world a better place. They see the injustices of the world and, instead of fighting to right the wrongs, look forward to some mythical being to do it for them. Instead of doing the hard work of figuring our moral principles that actually work in practice, they want to offload this work to some priest and simply be told what they should do.

Ultimately, in my mind, that is a dereliction of duty and is ultimately immoral.
 
Or, maybe, it is the universe that is eternal (meaning it exists for all time). That was the 'it' I was talking about. Why do you think there is an intelligence with this property?
Like I said before and I’m sure you can agree, when I see magnificent pieces of art, construction, technology, craftsmanship that man has done and accomplished I don’t think, wow this just happened by chance over time. No, I appreciate the skill and engineering, planning it took to accomplish these things.
When I look at the Creation, the World, diversity of people, animals, vegetation, how everything works together, it makes me stand in awe of God. I never think wow this just happened by chance.
Then there’s something that’s better than all that, He stepped into my life and did something so great that gave me more joy that I could yell loud enough or jump high enough to release that joy I have inside at what He’s done and his plans for me. How can this God have such an interest in me? I couldn’t believe it!
 

Audie

Veteran Member
What it 's looking like to me is that, the Atheist generally suspects, or even fears, that God is real, but they don't like the idea of Him telling them what to do.

In this video Bill Nye says that the real problems arise when some people claim that a super entity is telling them what HE should do.


"They tell you you can't do this or you can't do that because the Super Entity of mine is telling me you can't or else he'll......

"That's when there's conflict.

Watch the video starting at about 1:39.

The real issue seems to be, not IS there a Super Entity, but that "should we OBEY it.

The problems is, as we have seen in the past with the Sodomites, people, even in a localized part of the world, can't just DO whatever they want indefinitely without engaging the Wrath of God.

And the land will vomit out it's inhabitants.

The days of Noah, the days of Lot and here we go again.

Lets get ready to rumble.

It looks that way to you because you
are completely unable to understand
what it is to be atheist. As your words so
clearly show.

Maybe if you substitute "Nessie " or' Bigfoot "
for "god " you could at least start on comprehension.

It would also help if you listened to what others
actually say, not rely on how things seem to
you, ie, make up.
 

Dave Watchman

Active Member
And, when it comes down to it, the deities most theists believe in are cruel, childlike, and often evil. They would not be worthy of devotion even if they existed.

He would be worthy of devotion if He were the One that created you.

And especially when He died in your place so that you may also live.

"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command.​

He also said not to fear those who would harm the body.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.​

God has the power to resurrect.

Abraham's faith in this was so strong that he was willing to take his own son's life.

It seems to me that most theists suspect that there is no God, but are afraid of having to take responsibility for their own actions and for making the world a better place. They see the injustices of the world and, instead of fighting to right the wrongs, look forward to some mythical being to do it for them. Instead of doing the hard work of figuring our moral principles that actually work in practice, they want to offload this work to some priest and simply be told what they should do.

I'm very sure that "most theists" would NOT go though all the effort to follow their religion IF they suspected "that there is no God."

And to have some priest tell them what they should do?

If they believed that there is no God?

That could give them life eternal?

Are you serious?

"The priest says I can't go to the game on Sunday honey.

"The priest says the church is having a Bible study.

A priest is not why we search the Scriptures.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life;
and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.​
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What do you see when you look in the mirror and see that nose hanging off your face. I thought not, so let me help you with this one since all you have to offer is circular reasoning and nothing else.

That nose hanging off your face will testify against you on judgement day, it will say I hung off your face throughout your whole life but you denied me. you insulted me when you claimed that I was formed in some pond scum over billions of years.

What could be more reliable than something that's in your face and on your face at the same time. yet you reject it as if it doesn't exist as you don't have enough proof.

I have zero faint in secular science as they haven't produced any proof that any of their theories are actually true. They keep changing their minds every single day of the week and they don't know if they're coming or going or which ways is up. They can't answer my 5 year old nephews questions, let alone any intelligent adults, so with all due respect if any I choose to flush them down the toilet collectively.
Please, make believe threats do not convince anyone. Would you feel at all threatened if I told you how you were going to be thrown into the hell of skunky beer and strippers with STD's?

All you have is a believe that is beginning to look as a result of a very real fear. That does not make it true. Being afraid of your addiction issues, which are a real threat, does not make Christianity any more likely to be true than other beliefs. If it helped you to get over your addictions that is a good thing, but it looks as if the psychologists that said they would be problem for the rest of your life were right. You have merely changed addictions to one that is not quite as self destructive.
 
Top