Truth: either God exists or He don't.

[ratiocinator]

He would be worthy of devotion if He were the One that created you.

Why, if it's also cruel, petty, and unjust?

And especially when He died in your place so that you may also live.

"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command.​

This is a case in point. The bizarre, silly, bloodthirsty, and unjust story of us being made sinners and then being condemned by god for being what it made us. Then the utter absurdity of god incarnating itself and making sure it gets tortured to death, making it somehow okay again but only if we believe it.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Why does your god exist, rather than another god, many gods, no gods, or nothing at all?

God answered me when I called to Him and filled me with His Spirit, He opened the eyes of my understanding to know Him. I have a relationship with Him. I know I have eternal life and will be with Him forever in Heaven.

 

[Dave Watchman]

It looks that way to you because you
are completely unable to understand
what it is to be atheist. As your words so
clearly show.

Thank goodness.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Maybe if you substitute "Nessie " or' Bigfoot "
for "god " you could at least start on comprehension.

That's the best you got?

Comparing "Nessie " or' Bigfoot " with "God ".

Nessie and Bigfoot didn't get the world's #1 best selling Book written about them.

It would also help if you listened to what others
actually say, not rely on how things seem to
you, ie, make up.

If I wasn't listening, I'd have no material for a quote.

You want evidence?

I'm sure you're smart enough to find it, if you looked hard enough.

 

[Polymath257]

Like I said before and I’m sure you can agree, when I see magnificent pieces of art, construction, technology, craftsmanship that man has done and accomplished I don’t think, wow this just happened by chance over time. No, I appreciate the skill and engineering, planning it took to accomplish these things.

And, once again, we *know* these were done by humans.

When I look at the Creation, the World, diversity of people, animals, vegetation, how everything works together, it makes me stand in awe of God. I never think wow this just happened by chance.

Once again, you need to make a distinction between 'happened through the natural laws' and 'happened by chance'. They are *very* different things!

Then there’s something that’s better than all that, He stepped into my life and did something so great that gave me more joy that I could yell loud enough or jump high enough to release that joy I have inside at what He’s done and his plans for me. How can this God have such an interest in me? I couldn’t believe it!

And I won't deny that you had an amazing experience. The only thing I would ask is whether you know this was actually from a deity as opposed to a type of self-delusion? Spontaneous releases of 'happiness chemicals' in the brain can do what you described. How do you know it was something outside of yourself as opposed to a glitch in the workings?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thank goodness.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

That is the claim of the Bible. The Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence. How would you show that to be correct? Just because an ignorant person wrote something a couple of thousands of years ago does not make it true. Besides most atheists do not say "there is no God". There is no need to since believers cannot show that their god exists.

That's the best you got?

Comparing "Nessie " or' Bigfoot " with "God ".

Nessie and Bigfoot didn't get the world's #1 best selling Book written about them.

Your God appears to be very weak since you have no real argument against them. Yes, lots of people have been indoctrinated into your particular evidence and bought the book. That is not evidence for your God. By your standards once Islam surpasses Christianity it will be wrong. Are you sure that you want to do that?

If I wasn't listening, I'd have no material for a quote.

You want evidence?

I'm sure you're smart enough to find it, if you looked hard enough.

Now this only tells us that you have no evidence. You probably do not even understand the concept. Since you have no evidence why should anyone believe your claims?

 

[Polymath257]

God answered me when I called to Him and filled me with His Spirit, He opened the eyes of my understanding to know Him. I have a relationship with Him. I know I have eternal life and will be with Him forever in Heaven.

And what is interesting is that many people from all different religions across the world say the same thing. And yet, they all describe their deities differently.

Is it possible there is a common *chemical* component to all of these experiences that has nothing to do with deities at all?

 

[Subduction Zone]

God answered me when I called to Him and filled me with His Spirit, He opened the eyes of my understanding to know Him. I have a relationship with Him. I know I have eternal life and will be with Him forever in Heaven.

I am pretty sure that you only believe and do not know. Believing something very strongly does not mean that you know something. Knowledge goes beyond mere belief. Knowledge if demonstrable. If you cannot show why you are correct all that you have is belief, not knowledge.

 

[ratiocinator]

Why does your god exist, rather than another god, many gods, no gods, or nothing at all?

God answered me when I called to Him and filled me with His Spirit, He opened the eyes of my understanding to know Him. I have a relationship with Him. I know I have eternal life and will be with Him forever in Heaven.

I wasn't asking why you believed in your god, I was asking why your specific god just happens to exist. Compare with your comment about the universe being the way it is "by chance".

At the end of the day, we don't know fundamentally why things exist and are the way they are, and postulating a god doesn't actually answer the question.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Why, if it's also cruel, petty, and unjust?

Because you left out the other part,

God became a man and died in our place, so that we may live

This is a case in point. The bizarre, silly, bloodthirsty, and unjust story of us being made sinners and then being condemned by god for being what it made us. Then the utter absurdity of god incarnating itself and making sure it gets tortured to death, making it somehow okay again but only if we believe it.

Yes being born into a cursed world.

What was His alternative?

Destroy Adam and Eve on the day they sinned?

We wouldn't be here at all.

There wouldn't even be any mankind here to redeem.

I'm sure our descriptions of all this will see some tweaking.

We gonna find out.

 

[Polymath257]

He would be worthy of devotion if He were the One that created you.

Not if he were otherwise despicable.

And especially when He died in your place so that you may also live.

"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command.​

​

But God *didn't* die. In your mythos, God continued to live after life and did all sorts of things. At worst, the death was a minor inconvenience. But, mostly, it was theater: it was God inconveniencing himself for a few days so that he could decide not to apply the rules he set up and, instead, took his own discomfort for payment.

How does that make sense?

He also said not to fear those who would harm the body.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.​

God has the power to resurrect.

So? Why would I want to live forever?

Abraham's faith in this was so strong that he was willing to take his own son's life.

And that is exactly the evil of religious faith. Those who are willing to kill, even their own children, for their faith run the risk of severe evil. Abraham's faith was a pure evil, in my mind.

I'm very sure that "most theists" would NOT go though all the effort to follow their religion IF they suspected "that there is no God."

On the contrary, most do this because they *suspect* their might be a God. They have crises of faith because they also have doubts about this. it is their fear that drives them.

And to have some priest tell them what they should do?

If they believed that there is no God?

That could give them life eternal?

Are you serious?

"The priest says I can't go to the game on Sunday honey.

"The priest says the church is having a Bible study.

A priest is not why we search the Scriptures.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life;
and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.​

This only shows that people resort to God-belief because they are afraid of death. that is a very poor reason to believe anything, let alone in something you cannot verify independently.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because you left out the other part,

God became a man and died in our place, so that we may live

This is the claim of some Christians, but it makes no sense. Substitution atonement is immoral at best. It is not an answer. Why would God need to punish anyone for what appears to be his incompetence?

Yes being born into a cursed world.

What was His alternative?

There you go, that is a good start. Ask proper questions. The answer was to forgive people.

Destroy Adam and Eve on the day they sinned?

Tell us, whose fault is it that God did not make your mythical people without a sense of right and wrong (please note which tree they ate the fruit of and their reaction immediately after they ate it)? Who put that tree in the middle of the Garden where they could easily get to it? Who put the serpent in the Garden whose job it was to entice them? God is clearly at fault in that myth. He should be punishing himself not others.

We wouldn't be here at all.

There wouldn't even be any mankind here to redeem.

I'm sure our descriptions of all this will see some tweaking.

We gonna find out.

Actually we arose through the process of evolution, but we can let that go for now. The fact that one created others does not give one the right to do with them as one pleases. There are limits on what you can do to your children even though you "made them". If God is moral the same rules apply to him.

 

[Polymath257]

Because you left out the other part,

God became a man and died in our place, so that we may live

After he was the one that dictated we should die.

Yes being born into a cursed world.

And who cursed it?

What was His alternative?

Destroy Adam and Eve on the day they sinned?

How about creating them so that they had free will AND didn't sin?

We wouldn't be here at all.

There wouldn't even be any mankind here to redeem.

I'm sure our descriptions of all this will see some tweaking.

We gonna find out.

So he, a perfect being, made an imperfect world and then complained that it wasn't perfect?

Riiighht.

 

[Audie]

Thank goodness.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



That's the best you got?

Comparing "Nessie " or' Bigfoot " with "God ".

Nessie and Bigfoot didn't get the world's #1 best selling Book written about them.



If I wasn't listening, I'd have no material for a quote.

You want evidence?

I'm sure you're smart enough to find it, if you looked hard enough.

Nobody is smart enough to find what isn't there.

 

[Audie]

After he was the one that dictated we should die.



And who cursed it?



How about creating them so that they had free will AND didn't sin?



So he, a perfect being, made an imperfect world and then complained that it wasn't perfect?

Riiighht.

It makes sense if you are smart enough to
find the sense.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Ok, so now you have assumed the authority to decide what's real and what's not. Please let me know where you got that authority, I'd like it myself sounds powerful.

By observing reality. Your very idea that everybody knows that God exists contradicts reality.

 

[Samael_Khan]

God is not the author of sin and it's not His fault for hating sin and not allowing it into His pristine environment in heaven.

You said "This tells me that God deliberately keeps certain people blind because He doesn't want them in heaven."

If he deliberately keeps people blind then it is his fault that they are blind.

 

[Dave Watchman]

That is the claim of the Bible. The Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence. How would you show that to be correct? Just because an ignorant person wrote something a couple of thousands of years ago does not make it true. Besides most atheists do not say "there is no God". There is no need to since believers cannot show that their god exists.

In the Bible IS the evidence.

I would look at the prophetic time periods in Daniel and Revelation.

Some are still to come, but some are solvable.

Your God appears to be very weak since you have no real argument against them. Yes, lots of people have been indoctrinated into your particular evidence and bought the book. That is not evidence for your God. By your standards once Islam surpasses Christianity it will be wrong. Are you sure that you want to do that?

My read now is that they ALL have "fallen."

All have reached the point of a corruption and will morph into the eighth king, Lucifer's theocratic government..

Now this only tells us that you have no evidence. You probably do not even understand the concept. Since you have no evidence why should anyone believe your claims?

The heptads, the sevens, of Daniel 9 are more than enough.

You can google Artaxerxes decree and read the Wiki page for something to do.

Or try the decree of Suleiman the Magnificent.

Google 1535 decree.

These things can be found 62 weeks and 7 weeks apart.

This is enough empirical to knock it out of the ballpark.

 

[Samael_Khan]

In the Bible IS the evidence.

I would look at the prophetic time periods in Daniel and Revelation.

Some are still to come, but some are solvable.



My read now is that they ALL have "fallen."

All have reached the point of a corruption and will morph into the eighth king, Lucifer's theocratic government..



The heptads, the sevens, of Daniel 9 are more than enough.

You can google Artaxerxes decree and read the Wiki page for something to do.

Or try the decree of Suleiman the Magnificent.

Google 1535 decree.

These things can be found 62 weeks and 7 weeks apart.

This is enough empirical to knock it out of the ballpark.

I would be interested in seeing you debate Daniel with and educated Jew.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And, once again, we *know* these were done by humans.



Once again, you need to make a distinction between 'happened through the natural laws' and 'happened by chance'. They are *very* different things!



And I won't deny that you had an amazing experience. The only thing I would ask is whether you know this was actually from a deity as opposed to a type of self-delusion? Spontaneous releases of 'happiness chemicals' in the brain can do what you described. How do you know it was something outside of yourself as opposed to a glitch in the workings?

If it was a glitch of something I did myself I would tell you and probably gone a different path like wrote a book etc. When I prayed, God answered, He changed me, my family knew me before and after, if you saw you would too. I’m just a witness to the Truth. I was hopeless and it’s at that point God rescued me. He gave me understanding of the Scriptures and have proved Him to be faithful for the last 30 years of my life. I already know that it’s a gift from God to believe, people tried to convince me for a long time before I came to the end of my “good ideas”. He was there and still is.

 

[ratiocinator]

Because you left out the other part,

God became a man and died in our place, so that we may live

Which is a story that just underlines god's incompetence and injustice.

Yes being born into a cursed world.

What was His alternative?

Destroy Adam and Eve on the day they sinned?

Quite apart from not making such a shoddy job of creation in the first place, how about making just Adam and Eve face the consequences, rather than all their descendants?

The whole myth (and it is a myth, we have plentiful evidence that nothing like Adam and Eve ever happened in reality) is absurd and tells of an unjust and incompetent god.